The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[CadyandZoe]

So, you are apparently wanting to just exchange opinions back and forth without exegeting any scripture and showing exactly how you are coming to your conclusions? Is that right? If so, I have no interest in that. Back up your claims with scripture or we're done.

No, that's not what I want. I want to have conversations with people like you and others who are already familiar with the relevant passages. I've been in a men's Bible study for over 20 years, and because we've been together for so long, I already know what they're going to say before they say it. There's no need for me to quote the scriptures to you since you already know them.

In my view, I assume that you know the relevant passages out of respect for your intelligence and thoughtfulness. You don't need me to teach you what you already know.

Do you think WPM's question was intended to seek information as if he didn't know the answer already?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Say what exactly? I'm not interested in your games. You can't be taken seriously if you're not willing to exegete any scripture and explain clearly why you believe what you do.

This is not a game, but things are not always as they seem on the surface. Try to understand what is really happening here.

Edit: You and I were conversing about 2 Thessalonians 1 and Paul's reference to a "day." In short, you and I were exegeting the passage. You didn't want to discuss why you believe that "day" in that context refers to 24 hours. In light of my question, you accused me of twisting the scriptures.

Understand?

 

[The Light]

Not so!

rab

1) much, many, great (adjective)

Yeah much, many, great is not ALL

1a) much

Yeah much is not ALL

1b) many

1c) abounding in

Yeah abounding in is not ALL

1d) more numerous than

Yeah more numerous than is not all

1e) abundant, enough

Yeah abundant, enough is not ALL

1f) great

Yeah great is not ALL

1g) strong

Yeah strong is not ALL

1h) greater than

Yeah greater than is not ALL

1i) much, exceedingly

Yeah much exceedingly is not ALL

So the facts remain. MANY or any of the above you want to choose is NOT ALL. So how is it if there is only one resurrection as you claim, and it is after the 7th trumpet of wrath, why are not ALL resurrected in Daniel 12.

 

[The Light]

Thank you.

It used to be confusing to me as 2 Peter 3 says
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

But the thousand years begins after the 7th trumpet sounds.

I thought the day of the Lord was 1000 years long but it's not. The day of the Lord is the day of His vengeance. It is the day of His wrath and is one year long.

Isaiah 13:9
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

We can also tell that the day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal.

Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

We can also prove by the Word God that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

 

[WPM]

Then go do a google image search for "post-trib rapture chart". Copy the one that you think is correct and post it.

No. You simply do not get it. I am not Interested in charts. I go by the Word. You cannot bring any conclusive biblical support to the table. That sinks your doctrine.

No Pretrib can rebut the Op. That shows it is watertight.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Already did.
You should have learned in First grade how to concisely answer a direct question.

Teacher ~ Question
Susie does your mother live in the house you live in?
Student ~ Answer
A lady lives in my house.
Teacher ~ Vague, doesn’t answer question.
Teacher ~ Try again.
Student ~ Answer
Yes.

Not my job to teach you how to have a valid worthwhile conversation.

He is 99% "anti pretrib rapture".
1% takes mat 24 that has 2 separate vivid gatherings and claims his doctrine of omission is his postrib rapture belief.

Reframes the Bible wildly with no red flags.
All that egg on his face and his remedy is to smear more on it.

What a hoot.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No. You simply do not get it. I am not Interested in charts. I go by the Word. You cannot bring any conclusive biblical support to the table. That sinks your doctrine.

No Pretrib can rebut the Op. That shows it is watertight.

A simple time line defeats you????
Hmmmmm.

 

[rebuilder 454]

LOL. This is one of the most ridiculous things i have ever heard on end-time forums. This sums up Pretrib!

"....as a mother in travail"
Omitting context again?
More egg on your face.

 

[WPM]

Jesus Himself said it IS TRUE…

Matt 13:
[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

It is beyond your comprehension BECAUSE it is “EASIER” to simply maintain your stubbornness and REJECT, rather than to “DISCOVER” the meaning of Jesus’ teaching, and HOW TO, understand the meaning of Jesus’ teaching.

It’s not rocket-science.

Glory to God,
Taken

This is about as much as we are going to get from Pretribbers.

I understand the frustration of not having any hard Scripture to bring to the table to prove your doctrine, but cryptic evasive posts and personal attacks do not inhance your argument, they expose it. It you had biblical support you would present it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are a child. Like your immature childish brethren, you are incapable of making a coherent argument using scripture.

Are there any adult pretribbers here who would like to have an adult discussion? Step on up!

That is petty and childish.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You said "The point is that the rapture can not be predicted to happen on a set day - like post-trib predicts.".

What did you mean by this? It comes across as you saying that post-trib claims to be able to predict what day the rapture will occur.


Yeah, so?


So?


Right. We don't know what day Jesus will come and gather us to Himself and destroy His enemies. In our view, that will all happen quickly on that day. So, I'm just not seeing your point here. You're trying to act as if the post-trib view can claim to know what day the rapture will take place, but that is not the case.

In case you're somehow not understanding what I'm saying, I believe the following will occur quickly and that it includes both the rapture and God's wrath when Jesus returns.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

All you did Was omit the rapture verses, then transpose the rapture to the white horses.
You have zero postrib rapture verses.
As you just demonstrated

 

[rebuilder 454]

Thank you for noting the Basic:
I am a child OF God!

I contend (revealed by your own posts, your own words) you FAIL to Comprehend the difference between Mindful Understanding and Spiritual Understanding…
THUS…
Attempting to have a meaningful Conversation with you FROM a Spiritual Understanding POINT of View, is a FAIL…

Glory to God,
Taken

He is a glorified troll
Nobody but a postriber will have an actual "back and forth" with him.
....and that will.be them backslappng each other with egg all over their faces.

 

[rebuilder 454]

LOL at "emotionally destroyed". What a joke. That is not what Paul is talking about at all. LOL! You will do ANYTHING and go to ANY length to try to keep your weak doctrine afloat.

Do you not believe in interpreting scripture with scripture? While Paul does not go into detail about what causes the "sudden destruction" on the day of the Lord, Peter does.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, now we can clearly see that what will cause the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" and we can clearly see it's not emotional destruction (LOL!), but rather physical destruction by fire on the entire earth.


No, that is an absolute lie. Which makes you....


Hey, I have news for you. Are you paying attention? It says they come out of great tribulation, not THE great tribulation. Just as all believers do.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.


Billions of martyrs killed by the devil? What nonsense. That is not taught anywhere. You have quite an active imagination.

QUOTE:
"LOL at "emotionally destroyed". What a joke. That is not what Paul is talking about at all. LOL! You will do ANYTHING and go to ANY length to try to keep your weak doctrine afloat.
Do you not believe in interpreting scripture with scripture? While Paul does not go into detail about what causes the "sudden destruction" on the day of the Lord, Peter does."

I am not the one erroneously claiming the rapture is at the white horses

Lol
You are sitting there with so much egg on your face you can not see that your house is on fire, but you turn to your air purifier for a ridiculous remedy.

 

[WPM]

"....as a mother in travail"
Omitting context again?
More egg on your face.

Avoidance, ad hominem and twisting what the text says, is all Pretrib have.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The “sudden destruction” here is so unexpected, impactful and widespread that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. Furthermore, we learn that the swiftness that the travail of childbirth comes upon a woman will be the way destruction suddenly hits the wicked. It is not saying that the whole child-birth experience is like the coming of the Lord, which would be needed to allow for the Premil understanding. That is not found in this text. In doing this they diminish the sudden nature of the destruction.

• Where is your seven-year tribulation in this passage?
• Where are your survivors?
• How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here.

The fact is, this is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

 

[The Light]

No Pretrib can rebut the Op. That shows it is watertight.

LOL. You have to be kidding. You haven't even figured you are post wrath and not post trib.

Very little of what you say agrees with the Word of God.

How is it if there is only one resurrection as you claim, and it is after the 7th trumpet of wrath, why are not ALL resurrected in Daniel 12.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Bible evidence supports one final future climatic coming of Jesus

I don't see it this way. The Bible describes at least two comings of Jesus.

A. Coming in the clouds:
Matthew 24:30
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

This is a three-part description of the second-coming.

1. sign of the son of man will appear in the sky
2. all the tribes will mourn
3. they shall witness the son of man coming with great power and glory.

What can we logically conclude? The event takes place in the sky and can be seen from the ground. The tribes of the earth (the tribes of Israel) will witness it and mourn. The tribes of Israel will see the son of man coming in the clouds, which means that Coming A.1. is a local event.

A.1. Sign of the son of man
A.1.1 Jesus receives dominion over all the nations.
A.1.2. Jesus meets with his followers in the air.

A1.1. Jesus receives dominion over all the nations.

Daniel 7:13
“I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.

According to Daniel, the signal event which will mark Jesus as the "son of man" is the moment he comes before the ancient of days to receive dominion and power. Coincidentally, he will also receive his followers who will meet him in the air.

A1.2. Jesus meets with his followers in the air. (clouds)

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

A.2. All the tribes mourn
Zechariah 12:10-11

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo.​

This is also a local event taking place in Jerusalem when God pours out a Spirit of grace and supplication on those who weep bitterly over him.

This event is described in Revelation 14

Hebrews 14:1-2

Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. ​

This event also takes place in a cloud similar to the transfiguration of the Lord. Jesus will meet with the 144,000 in Jerusalem transfigured in a cloud. (Matthew 17:2)

A.3. they shall witness the son of man coming with great power and glory.

Revelation 19:13-15

Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.​

In summary, we see three instances where Jesus makes his presence known: 1) in the clouds, 2) on earth with the 144,000, and 3) waging war against the nations.

The Greek word parousia appears 24 times in the New Testament. It is rendered “coming” in 22 passages and “presence” in 2. The word can be interpreted coming, arrival or presence and simply expresses in the Greek what it implies in the English.

The New Testament carries another connotation that the English do not: it refers to a procession of the King, riding on a horse, and entering the city in triumph.

In this passage, "the end of the world" is plainly identified with the coming of the Lord.

Jesus is not talking about the end of the world. He is talking about the end of the current age, which was characterized by Israel's fear of her enemies, and the dominion of darkness.

 

[WPM]

You are sitting there with so much egg on your face you can not see that your house is on fire, but you turn to your air purifier for a ridiculous remedy.

Name calling and avoidance is all you have now.

 

[WPM]

LOL. You have to be kidding. You haven't even figured you are post wrath and not post trib.

Very little of what you say agrees with the Word of God.

How is it if there is only one resurrection as you claim, and it is after the 7th trumpet of wrath, why are not ALL resurrected in Daniel 12.

If you would actually read what we are writing then you would get it. But you will not. That is your own problem, not ours. Amils believe in what the Bible teaches: one final future coming of Christ which occurs after the tribulation and before the final wrath of God. It is not hard to grasp.

 

[rwb]

Since you believe that the rapture could possibly happen today - you don't hold the post-trib view, which maintains that the rapture can only happen on the day of Jesus's Second Coming.

Doug, Amils believe the Word of God shows great tribulation has been and is on-going since Christ ushered in His universal Church and shall continue until Christ comes again. Therefore, Amil indeed are post tribulation believers! We don't know, nor do we pretend to know when the Lord shall come the Second time. But Amil, with great expectation and faith KNOW without doubting that Christ will indeed come again on one day that is coming. And all that comes to pass on that day shall be the resurrection saints who have died, together with saints still alive at His Second Coming will be caught up together (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air, then the fire of God from heaven shall come down and all left alive on this earth shall be burned up. Then on that DAY all things shall be made new and the saints with Christ shall come down with Him to inhabit the new earth where there will be no more evil or dying.

 

[WPM]

I don't see it this way. The Bible describes at least two comings of Jesus.

A. Coming in the clouds:
Matthew 24:30
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

This is a three-part description of the second-coming.

1. sign of the son of man will appear in the sky
2. all the tribes will mourn
3. they shall witness the son of man coming with great power and glory.

What can we logically conclude? The event takes place in the sky and can be seen from the ground. The tribes of the earth (the tribes of Israel) will witness it and mourn. The tribes of Israel will see the son of man coming in the clouds, which means that Coming A.1. is a local event.

A.1. Sign of the son of man
A.1.1 Jesus receives dominion over all the nations.
A.1.2. Jesus meets with his followers in the air.

A1.1. Jesus receives dominion over all the nations.

Daniel 7:13
“I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.

According to Daniel, the signal event which will mark Jesus as the "son of man" is the moment he comes before the ancient of days to receive dominion and power. Coincidentally, he will also receive his followers who will meet him in the air.

A1.2. Jesus meets with his followers in the air. (clouds)

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

A.2. All the tribes mourn
Zechariah 12:10-11

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo.​

This is also a local event taking place in Jerusalem when God pours out a Spirit of grace and supplication on those who weep bitterly over him.

This event is described in Revelation 14

Hebrews 14:1-2

Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. ​

This event also takes place in a cloud similar to the transfiguration of the Lord. Jesus will meet with the 144,000 in Jerusalem transfigured in a cloud. (Matthew 17:2)

A.3. they shall witness the son of man coming with great power and glory.

Revelation 19:13-15

Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.​

In summary, we see three instances where Jesus makes his presence known: 1) in the clouds, 2) on earth with the 144,000, and 3) waging war against the nations.


The New Testament carries another connotation that the English do not: it refers to a procession of the King, riding on a horse, and entering the city in triumph.


Jesus is not talking about the end of the world. He is talking about the end of the current age, which was characterized by Israel's fear of her enemies, and the dominion of darkness.

I think you think if you keep repeating a theory then it makes it a fact. That is not the way it works. Scripture overrides your own personal opinion. Look at what Scripture teaches and you will see Premil cannot be.

• The second coming is "the end" (telos). Premils have no difficulty with the meaning of the phrase "the beginning" but they conveniently become sheepish and kafuffled when it comes the meaning of “the end.” That is because it exposes their theology.
• Time shall be no more at the last trumpet. We are then into eternity. There will be no more need for watches or calendars. This forbids a future protracted period of time full of the bondage of corruption.
• We are currently in the “last (eschatos) days” (plural) since the beginning of Christ's earth ministry, but these are shown in Scripture to have an end. The “last (or final or ultimate) day” (singular) is said to occur at Christ's coming. This also negates Premil.
• The end of the age happens at the return of Christ and sees the general resurrection/judgment. There are no supposed 1000 years in-between both resurrection/judgments. That is a Premil invention. The only argument for that comes from a false reading of 1 symbolic chapter in the most figurative book in the Bible - 3 chapter before the end of Scripture. Think about that!