The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[The Light]

Avoidance, ad hominem and twisting what the text says, is all Pretrib have.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The “sudden destruction” here is so unexpected, impactful and widespread that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. Furthermore, we learn that the swiftness that the travail of childbirth comes upon a woman will be the way destruction suddenly hits the wicked. It is not saying that the whole child-birth experience is like the coming of the Lord, which would be needed to allow for the Premil understanding. That is not found in this text. In doing this they diminish the sudden nature of the destruction.

When Jesus comes at Armageddon the destruction will be sudden.

• Where is your seven-year tribulation in this passage?

There is no seven year tribulation in the passage. Which proves what? Strawman. Where is your you have replaced Israel in that passage?

• Where are your survivors?

The total destruction is for those at Armageddon. It's a big world. There is a year of wrath.

Zechariah 14
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Here are the survivors.

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

• How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here.

The fact is, this is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

Not everyone that whose nation comes against Jerusalem will be at the site of the battle. Zechariah 14:16 PROVES THAT YOU ARE WRONG........AGAIN.

So, in light of the fact that scripture has again proven you wrong, I'm sure you are going to rush out and tell your teachers that they are wrong also...........as you are seeking the truth...........aren't you?

The truth is there are two raptures and one of them will occur when you think not. There are five wise and five foolish.

 

[rwb]

Since you said you believe that the rapture could happen today - you are not qualified to be a postribber.

Do a google image search of post-trib rapture view charts. And find one that fits you, and post it.

When you understand that tribulation is the lot in life (this age) for believers, then you would understand why the Second coming of Christ can be any time! So that we might understand this Scripture has given things that shall come to pass before that DAY so we can be filled with faith, and ready to meet the Lord with great joy at His coming!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Avoidance, ad hominem and twisting what the text says, is all Pretrib have.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The “sudden destruction” here is so unexpected, impactful and widespread that none escape.

Does Paul say that "none" escape? Yes, he says some will escape. He discusses two events. The first event is the rapture, and the second event is the Day of the Lord, which concerns the times and seasons. Regarding the Day of the Lord, he mentions some who will not escape destruction and others who are not appointed to wrath. Due to the fact that some are in darkness, the day will overtake them like a thief. But the children of the light, live in hope of salvation and since they are not appointed to wrath, they will obtain salvation.

The travail of a woman with a child represents the inevitability of the event. A woman suffers pain without relief for a short time until the birth of her baby, which brings great joy. Israel must suffer great pain during that time, but the outcome will bring much joy to Israel.

 

[WPM]

LOL. You have to be kidding. You haven't even figured you are post wrath and not post trib.

Very little of what you say agrees with the Word of God.

How is it if there is only one resurrection as you claim, and it is after the 7th trumpet of wrath, why are not ALL resurrected in Daniel 12.

The Bible teaches a general resurrection. The resurrection/judgment are tied together. It obviously takes one to allow the other. For there to be one general judgment then Scripture must also teach one general resurrection. This I believe Scripture does in several places.

Daniel 12:1-3 reveals, “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

It is at this great concluding event that both the righteous and the wicked will be raised to face the great final judgment. Notwithstanding, there are two aspects to the one all-consummating resurrection day.

This reading shows a general resurrection involving two types of people – the righteous and the wicked; one group rises "to everlasting life" the other to "everlasting contempt." The fact that we see a clear description of the general resurrection of the righteous and the wicked tells us that this is a tribulation that occurs prior to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:41-42, “The men of Nineveh shall rise [Gr. anistemi Strong’s 450] in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up [Gr. egeiro Strong’s 1453] in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”

The righteous Old Testament Gentile saint – the queen of the south – is raised at the same time as the wicked Pharisees of Christ’s day to stand before the same judgment seat of Christ.

This is further impressed in the parallel portion in Luke 11:31, only with an additional example, saying, “The queen of the south shall rise up [Gr. egeiro Strong’s 1453] in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh shall rise up [Gr. anistemi Strong’s 450] in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.”

Here, the two main words used throughout the New Testament for resurrection are applied to the general resurrection that occurs on Judgment Day when the Old Testament time saints and wicked join the New Testament saints and wicked at the judgment. Remember the queen of the south and Nineveh are presented as Old Testament Gentile saints that will “rise up in the judgment with” the wicked unbelieving Jews of Christ’s day. There is no prolonged parenthesis period separating the resurrection of the wicked dead and the resurrection of the righteous dead. They both “rise up” at the same time. The Old Testament Gentile city of Nineveh is shown to “rise up in the judgment with” (or meta) the religious Jewish world of Christ’s day and “condemn it.” The Greek word meta (3326) is described in Strong’s concordance as “a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; ‘amid’.”

Please notice “the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” We are not just looking at the righteous, we are looking at both the righteous and the wicked. The passage goes on to confirm: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” All that are in the graves will come forth when He comes. The righteous will be ushered into His glorious kingdom, the wicked shall be damned for all eternity in the lake of fire.

The righteous and wicked dead all rise in response to the same sovereign voice - Christ's. Christ’s description of the resurrection depicts a unitary event, albeit in two parts. Part 1 is the elect; Part 2 is the wicked. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

There is one physical resurrection day in which there are two types of raising, (1) unto life, (2) unto damnation. Acts 24:15 says, “there shall be a resurrection of the dead (singular), both of the just and unjust.”

This verse speaks of a singular “resurrection of the dead” not multiple resurrections (plural) of the dead as the Premillennialist would try and intimate. The fact that Paul differentiates between the wicked and the righteous in no way proves that these are two separate resurrections coming at the end of two separate ages split by 1,000 years+ of history (filled with all the produce of the curse – sin, death and corruption). No, it simply demonstrates that there are two types of resurrection in the one final resurrection of the dead at the end. In fact, for Premils to insist on their concept is to force something into the passage that doesn’t truly exist. Scripture constantly distinguishes between the wicked and the righteous even though they are found participating in the same event at the same time. Why would anyone think it strange that the Holy Spirit would identify the two different parties that take part in the general “resurrection of the dead”? After all, it is a normal biblical procedure to distinguish between these two conflicting camps. Although to suggest that the identifying of these two distinct parties indicates two separate events at two separate times is illogical.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1: “I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away [Gr. pheugo]; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away [Gr. parerchomai].”

Looking at the detail of this passage, and knowing the consistent teaching of Scripture, and allowing the repeated climactic descriptions of the second coming, we can be confident this is clearly a record of the impending and all-consummating return of Jesus!

The Greek word pheugo is “a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish.” The Greek word parerchomai means to pass away or perish.

Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away or pass away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His Coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

 

[The Light]

I think you think if you keep repeating a theory then it makes it a fact. That is not the way it works. Scripture overrides your own personal opinion. Look at what Scripture teaches and you will see Premil cannot be.

• The second coming is "the end" (telos). Premils have no difficulty with the meaning of the phrase "the beginning" but they conveniently become sheepish and kafuffled when it comes the meaning of “the end.” That is because it exposes their theology.

No. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal just as the Word says. That is not the end, it is the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The one year day of His wrath.

• Time shall be no more at the last trumpet. We are then into eternity. There will be no more need for watches or calendars. This forbids a future protracted period of time full of the bondage of corruption.

This event is the end of the seventh seal. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal as proven by scripture.

• We are currently in the “last (eschatos) days” (plural) since the beginning of Christ's earth ministry, but these are shown in Scripture to have an end. The “last (or final or ultimate) day” (singular) is said to occur at Christ's coming. This also negates Premil.

Baloney. The tribulation of those days is the Great Tribulation.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

• The end of the age happens at the return of Christ and sees the general resurrection/judgment. There are no supposed 1000 years in-between both resurrection/judgments. That is a Premil invention. The only argument for that comes from a false reading of 1 symbolic chapter in the most figurative book in the Bible - 3 chapter before the end of Scripture. Think about that!

Again baloney.

Rev 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Does anything you believe regarding end times agree with scripture. I think not.

 

[The Light]

If you would actually read what we are writing then you would get it. But you will not. That is your own problem, not ours. Amils believe in what the Bible teaches: one final future coming of Christ which occurs after the tribulation and before the final wrath of God. It is not hard to grasp.

Yeah if you disregard the seals and tons of other scriptures and get a big enough sledgehammer you might fool yourself.

 

[WPM]

Does Paul say that "none" escape? Yes, he says some will escape. He discusses two events. The first event is the rapture, and the second event is the Day of the Lord, which concerns the times and seasons. Regarding the Day of the Lord, he mentions some who will not escape destruction and others who are not appointed to wrath. Due to the fact that some are in darkness, the day will overtake them like a thief. But the children of the light, live in hope of salvation and since they are not appointed to wrath, they will obtain salvation.

The travail of a woman with a child represents the inevitability of the event. A woman suffers pain without relief for a short time until the birth of her baby, which brings great joy. Israel must suffer great pain during that time, but the outcome will bring much joy to Israel.

It is very simple what this is saying to the unindoctrinated mind. This is the end. It is over. We are not into eternity. There are no survivors. You are unable to show survivors here.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Advent in glory that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of His coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

 

[WPM]

Yeah if you disregard the seals and tons of other scriptures and get a big enough sledgehammer you might fool yourself.

Your chronological approach to Revelation has already been shown to be nonsensical. It does not work from many angles.

Anyway, where is your rapture Revelation before your protracted tribulation period?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I think you think if you keep repeating a theory then it makes it a fact. That is not the way it works.

Stick to the argument please.

Scripture overrides your own personal opinion. Look at what Scripture teaches and you will see Premil cannot be.

My argument looks at scripture.

• The second coming is "the end" (telos).

As I demonstrated, the second coming takes place in three stages, culminating in Jesus Christ's being given dominion over all the nations.

Time shall be no more at the last trumpet.

The end of delay is not the end of time as such.

The end of the age happens at the return of Christ and sees the general resurrection/judgment.

The end of the age isn't the cessation of time. Jesus refers to the end of "this" age, which is characterized by darkness and antisemitism. Refer to passages of the New Testament where Jesus compares "this age" with "the coming age."

There are no supposed 1000 years in-between both resurrection/judgments.

Refer to Revelation 20

 

[WPM]

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

You're misunderstanding of Matthew 24 is causing you to get confused. I've already addressed this several times with you, and as usual, you have avoided. I will repeat:

End-Time Great Tribulation Centred Upon Earthly Jerusalem???

You are looking to the wrong Jerusalem. I don’t believe that the focal point of end-time history is upon earthly Jerusalem (that is under bondage); I believe that it will be focused upon the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem – you and me. I believe in a global opposition/persecution. I do not literalise any of the above symbolic references in Revelation as they are employed to impress New Testament spiritual truths. John repeatedly employs prominent Old Testament imagery to impress glorious spiritual New Testament truths. He used familiar Old Testament geographical locations and physical events within the old economy era to explain literal future spiritual events.

“No, Nor Ever Shall Be”

It is not necessary speaking of size or scope; some import that into it. It is speaking of the overwhelming effect and destruction it had upon one particular disobedient people – the Jews; a people that should have known better. The Roman siege in 70 A.D. resulted in the total destruction of the city and of life within the city. Their whole culture, political and religious structure that was intimately tied to Jerusalem was in one foul swoop swiftly and effectively eliminated. The fact is, they still haven’t recovered 2,000 years later. They are the only major religion in the world that still doesn’t own their religious centre. This all resulted from this great tribulation from God. The world would never again witness such a swift, complete and lasting destruction of a whole people/culture and their religious place of worship and associated belief system.

The concluding statement in our last reading in Matthew 24 says, of this heavenly judgment and its aftermath, “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time (i.e. from creation to AD 70), no, nor ever shall be (speaking of a distinct time-period following this judgment, which manifestly involves various trials only of lesser impact, namely AD 70 till the second coming).” In these words of the Lord, we see the confirmation of the fact that there would assuredly be a stretch of time following this great tribulation, just as there was a time period preceding it.

AD 70 not only seen the slaughter of the Jewish people on a mammoth scale, it also seen the removal of their place of worship (and their innate method of worship) and seen the removal of them from their beloved homeland. In this sense AD 70 is unprecedented. Everything they stood for was demolished, including their faith. The only ones that survived complete were the Christians that fled to the Judean mountains as directed by the Lord. In coming to their position, Pretribbers totally ignore the context and the subject matter in view – namely Jerusalem, the Jews and their escape from the AD 70 destruction. It should be remembered, it is not one single element of AD 70 it is the collective depth and impact that it had that caused it to be described like this. Everything sunk at the one time. They have still yet to recover.

 

[WPM]

Stick to the argument please.

My argument looks at scripture.

As I demonstrated, the second coming takes place in three stages, culminating in Jesus Christ's being given dominion over all the nations.

The end of delay is not the end of time as such.

The end of the age isn't the cessation of time. Jesus refers to the end of "this" age, which is characterized by darkness and antisemitism. Refer to passages of the New Testament where Jesus compares "this age" with "the coming age."


Refer to Revelation 20

You are fighting with the Greek to fit your beliefs.

Firstly, this is undoubtedly the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ – the end – it has absolutely nothing to do with delaying the days.

Secondly, the King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: “chronos ouketi estai”

‘Time - no longer – there shall be’!!!

Thirdly, the above interpretation of the Greek in this passage is in perfect and harmonious agreement with their consistent usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so in an attempt to justify the Pre-mil theory, and the myriads of goats that their paradigm produces during their millennium.

Also, the interpretation of these Greek words in this passage, in the AV, is in clear and absolute agreement with their consistent usage throughout the rest of Scripture. Those therefore who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming or to support the inconsistent Pre-mil theory. The word chronos in this reading, which is rendered “time” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of “time” or “times” in Scripture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Let us look at 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This text is likening the sudden destruction coming upon the wicked at the climatic return of Christ to the sudden travail that comes upon a woman in childbirth. It is the suddenness that is the thrust of the simile. It is nothing to do with her emotions. That is ludicrous. This is how ridiculous Pretrib is in its reasoning.Where is your seven-year tribulation in this passage?

• Where is your seven-year tribulation in this passage?
• Where are your survivors?
• How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here?

Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

The fact is, this is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

Anyway, if the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming of Christ, as some Pretribbers argue, and if they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, which they say is the end of a great 7 years tribulation, how can the wicked be crying “peace and safety”? Surely, according to Pretrib, this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

QUOTE
"The fact is, this is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”
I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth."

Let's calm down and try to remedy your facesmear with all that gooey egg.
We can start with retrieving your needed omissions.
Cue Bible opening.
1thes 5
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1) you are saying, that the wicked on the entire planet are destroyed at the rapture?
2) you are saying a woman with child, in travail, means she is physically destroyed?

Both are totally false, if that is your position

Try and calm down and debate.

 

[The Light]

the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”[/U][/B][/COLOR]

Please notice “the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” We are not just looking at the righteous, we are looking at both the righteous and the wicked. The passage goes on to confirm: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” All that are in the graves will come forth when He comes. The righteous will be ushered into His glorious kingdom, the wicked shall be damned for all eternity in the lake of fire.

The righteous and wicked dead all rise in response to the same sovereign voice - Christ's. Christ’s description of the resurrection depicts a unitary event, albeit in two parts. Part 1 is the elect; Part 2 is the wicked. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

There is one physical resurrection day in which there are two types of raising, (1) unto life, (2) unto damnation. Acts 24:15 says, “there shall be a resurrection of the dead (singular), both of the just and unjust.”

Let's cut through the nonsense you have been taught with the Word of God.

Regarding............... “the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.”

There is an hour coming in which all are in the ground will hear his voice and come forth.

Looking further............... “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

Are Christians saved because they have done good???????????????????????????????????????????????

Daniel tells us
Daniel 12
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

And so there is your answer. The reason many of them that sleep in the ground shall awake and NOT ALL OF THE THEM that sleep in the ground is because the harvest at the sixth seal is for those that have accepted or rejected Christ.

These that are raised at the 6th seal will either go to the marriage supper or be cast into the wrath of God.

The rest of the dead will ALL be raised later. This is when the hour is coming that ALL that are in the ground shall hear His voice and come forth.

 

[Douggg]

You simply do not get it. I am not Interested in charts.

You say you are post-trib... which the charts of the post-trib rapture show the rapture restricted to the one day on which Jesus returns.

You say my chart of the post-trib view is in error, but you decline to copy and paste a chart of the post-trib rapture view that is correct. The fact is that post-trib rapture charts by others show the rapture in that view as being timed the same as I show on my chart.

So, your mo, modus oparndi, is to evade admitting that the post-trib view is not correct by saying that you are not interested in charts.

 

[rebuilder 454]

LOL at "emotionally destroyed". What a joke. That is not what Paul is talking about at all. LOL! You will do ANYTHING and go to ANY length to try to keep your weak doctrine afloat.

Do you not believe in interpreting scripture with scripture? While Paul does not go into detail about what causes the "sudden destruction" on the day of the Lord, Peter does.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, now we can clearly see that what will cause the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" and we can clearly see it's not emotional destruction (LOL!), but rather physical destruction by fire on the entire earth.


No, that is an absolute lie. Which makes you....


Hey, I have news for you. Are you paying attention? It says they come out of great tribulation, not THE great tribulation. Just as all believers do.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.


Billions of martyrs killed by the devil? What nonsense. That is not taught anywhere. You have quite an active imagination.

QUOTE
"Billions of martyrs killed by the devil? What nonsense. That is not taught anywhere. You have quite an active imagination."

We will note that you are unaware of who kills martyrs.

 

[WPM]

Let's calm down and try to remedy your facesmear with all that gooey egg.
We can start with retrieving your needed omissions.

This sums up the crude disrespectful and demeaning ad hominem that exemplifies the approach of most Pretribbers here when they notice they have no response to God's Book.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What you, and your fellow pretribbers, have not done is actually exegete any scripture. You do nothing to back up your claims.

Says the one who has a doctrine built and promoted on omission of the rapture verses.

 

[WPM]

So, your mo, modus oparndi, is to evade admitting that the post-trib view is not correct by saying that you are not interested in charts.

Yes, avoiding your faulty unscriptural charts is my MO. Amen!

 

[rebuilder 454]

This sums up the crude disrespectful and demeaning ad hominem that exemplifies the approach of most Pretribbers when they notice they have no redponse to God's Book.

What a mean disrespectful post.
Lol

 

[The Light]

Your chronological approach to Revelation has already been shown to be nonsensical. It does not work from many angles.

Anyway, where is your rapture Revelation before your protracted tribulation period?

In other words. It does not agree with what you claim. However, you are continually in error as I have proved over and over and over.

When will you understand there are 5 wise and 5 foolish. Who do you think the foolish are? Is it the ones that are watching and ready as the Lord instructed?