Apokatastasis in the Bible

[hies]

That's a temporal view that you are stuck on.

Do you really think people will hold on to such animosities when they enter the afterlife and see what is there.
Do you think they will stand up and shake a fist at Jesus when they are face to face with his pure love and acceptance?

Oh, wait you envision an angry hate-filled Jesus, right? --- I suppose that would change things. - LOL

Like the bumper sticker:

Jesus is coming...
And boy is he pissed!

]

Well, he offered them acceptance and they crucified him... I don't know what else he could do to be honest. Should they crucify him again?

But yes he is coming back to judge. You need to throw out a significant portion of the Bible to hold to your beliefs.

 

[St. SteVen]

Well, he offered them acceptance and they crucified him... I don't know what else he could do to be honest. Should they crucify him again?

LOL
I feel bad that you are so lost in all this. (under the earth)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

But yes he is coming back to judge. You need to throw out a significant portion of the Bible to hold to your beliefs.

LOL
Well, considering that the bunch that gave us the canon were Damnationists, we're fortunate to have anything to work from. But God gave us enough. Thankfully.

Here are a few.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 NIV
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

]

 

[hies]

LOL
I feel bad that you are so lost in all this. (under the earth)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).


LOL
Well, considering that the bunch that gave us the canon were Damnationists, we're fortunate to have anything to work from. But God gave us enough. Thankfully.

Here are a few.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 NIV
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

]

Ah, so your response is the Bible has been corrupted. Where's the uncorrupted version to know it's been corrupted then? Or is it just purely speculation based on the few verses you gave? Note however that not a single verse you've offered proves everyone will be saved. Rather, the offer to save all is there.

I think the best one you used to make your case was Titus 2:11. It says it brings salvation to all people right? Oh but then we read onwards...

"11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." - Titus 2:11-14

This proves that people can indeed reject salvation. Some people don't want to be purified or say "no" to ungodliness. They want to keep sinning. Proof they won't accept him is they crucified him.

 

[St. SteVen]

Ah, so your response is the Bible has been corrupted. Where's the uncorrupted version to know it's been corrupted then? Or is it just purely speculation based on the few verses you gave? Note however that not a single verse you've offered proves everyone will be saved. Rather, the offer to save all is there.

Time for some education?

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101​

https://www.bereanpatriot.com/majority-text-vs-critical-text-vs-textus-receptus-textual-criticism-101/#Corruption-of-the-Alexandrian-text-type

]

 

[St. SteVen]

This proves that people can indeed reject salvation. Some people don't want to be purified or say "no" to ungodliness. They want to keep sinning. Proof they won't accept him is they crucified him.

Some of the things that you attribute to the afterlife are actually for this life.

Example: the Broad and Narrow Gate.. Otherwise...

]

 

[hies]

Time for some education?

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101​

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus - Textual Criticism 101 - Berean Patriot

]

Ah yes, the good old "a comma is missing, look at this textual variant, it's all corrupt!"

We know what the NT originally said with over 99% accuracy. There are some discrepancies, but there's no real change in the theology. What Jesus said about hell is very clear.

Yet you can even throw out the NT and use the Dead Sea Scrolls to show some will indeed spend an eternity separate from God.

Isaiah 66:22-24
Daniel 12:1-2

For example.

Some of the things that you attribute to the afterlife are actually for this life.

Example: the Broad and Narrow Gate.. Otherwise...

]

I didn't attribute them to the afterlife, you did. They won't get an opportunity to be saved in the afterlife. That's the point. Titus 2 even said the salvation is given to those who wait for it in this present age... Then Hebrews 9:28 says when he returns, it will not be to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who waited. If you have not waited for him then, he will not be coming to bear your sin and accept you into open arms, will he?

What do Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Universalists all have in common? They all claim the Bible has been corrupt, then they cherry-pick verses from that supposedly corrupt Bible to support their beliefs. Yet if they just continued reading the verse in its context, they'd see they were wrong. I suppose "all of it is corrupt except for this small part here that supports my belief". Lol. Maybe if you took all the cherry-picked verses from Muslims, JWs and Universalists you could reconstruct the whole Bible.

 

[Wick Stick]

What Jesus said about hell is very clear.

I don't agree with this at all.

The Bible says surprisingly little about hell, and what it does say is horribly obfuscated by confusion between Hades and Tartarus, and the Germanic conception of Hel, a pagan idea.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I'm often told that Christian Universalism isn't in the Bible.

It's not.... God will restore creation unto perfection and those that did not get born again and abide in Christ will be in hell and will NOT be part of God's Kingdom.

One must ignore and discount portions of God's Word to arrive at the false conclusion satan has brought you to thru the deception he has worked in your life.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The Bible says surprisingly little about hell, and what it does say is horribly obfuscated by confusion between Hades and Tartarus, and the Germanic conception of Hel, a pagan idea.

That's one of satan's favorite deceptions... too bad you bought it hook, line, and stinker

 

[hies]

I don't agree with this at all.

The Bible says surprisingly little about hell, and what it does say is horribly obfuscated by confusion between Hades and Tartarus, and the Germanic conception of Hel, a pagan idea.

The Bible is clear that hell is a place where the soul is destroyed completely. See my post here: Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The Bible is clear that hell is a place where the soul is destroyed completely

No, it's a place where the lost will suffer in the eternal fires of hell for all eternity according to Jesus.

Calling Jesus Christ a liar ends badly for you.

Hope you fund deliverance from your confusion.

 

[hies]

No, it's a place where the lost will suffer in the eternal fires of hell for all eternity according to Jesus.

Calling Jesus Christ a liar ends badly for you.

Hope you fund deliverance from your confusion. View attachment 47996

Didn't read the post did you?

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

Do you think infants go to heaven if they haven't accepted Jesus as their saviour?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

When Jesus says destroy, He's speaking of someone being separated from God in hell for all eternity.

Man is created in God's image and cannot cease to exist since the gifts and callings of god are irrevocable.

Annihilationism is another one of satan's favorite deceptions that causes many to choose to not get born again as they falsely believe they will cease to exist

This teaching is one of many heresies of the last days brought forth by satan and his merry band of demons.

You'll see...

 

[hies]

When Jesus says destroy, He's speaking of someone being separated from God in hell for all eternity.

Man is created in God's image and cannot cease to exist since the gifts and callings of god are irrevocable.

Annihilationism is another one of satan's favorite deceptions that causes many to choose to not get born again as they falsely believe they will cease to exist

This teaching is one of many heresies of the last days brought forth by satan and his merry band of demons.

You'll see...

"In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen." - 1 Timothy 6:13-16

So if we actually read what the Bible says, it says God alone is immortal, and he alone sustains all life. The soul is not inherently immortal. Nowhere in scripture does it say our souls are inherently immortal. So when we're thrown into the fire, yes our souls will be destroyed, just like Matthew 10:28 says.

In Revelation 21:8 it's referred to as the second death.

Yes the punishment is eternal. It's like an indefinite prison sentence. If the punishment ended as soon as they died, then they could be forgiven and enter heaven.

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

How can you have eternal consciousness without eternal life? Therefore, the punishment is like an indefinite prison sentence.

This is also the most compatible with God's nature and has no moral flaws. Withering up and dying once and for all as you're cut off from life itself in the face of your creator while the entire host of heaven is clapping its hands at you is definitely not a pleasant experience. So I don't think it's a reason to remain unrepentant at all.

And yes I have repented, and continue to daily, and I trust that I will only enter heaven by Jesus' sacrifice for me, and by nothing that I do. I'm not preaching annihilationism as an excuse to remain unrepentant, nor is it one. Seeing the angels, and people who once loved you rejoicing as you're thrown into the lake of fire is definitely not pleasant.

"Students are to be like their teacher, and slaves are to be like their master. And since I, the master of the household, have been called the prince of demons, the members of my household will be called by even worse names!" - Matthew 10:25

 

[Dan Clarkston]

How can you have eternal consciousness without eternal life?

Everyone on earth now that is not born again does not have eternal life... and yet they are still walking around alive.

You are deceived by devils on this topic and it sounds as though you will never recover from teaching this heresy to others.

Heresy is one of the things listed in the NT that causes people to not inherit God's Kingdom so you'll be seeing first hand what happens to those that go south when they croak unless you repent.

 

[hies]

Everyone on earth now that is not born again does not have eternal life... and yet they are still walking around alive.

You are deceived by devils on this topic and it sounds as though you will never recover from teaching this heresy to others.

Heresy is one of the things listed in the NT that causes people to not inherit God's Kingdom so you'll be seeing first hand what happens to those that go south when they croak unless you repent.

Yes they don't have eternal life. So they will eventually die. That's how that works.

Repenting out of fear of punishment is not genuine repentance. True repentance comes as a result of seeing God's divinity, love, kindness, grace, then seeing how vile and evil you are in contrast to him. You feel ashamed and disgraced of yourself. If you only stop doing something because you're too afraid of the consequences, then it proves you really do want to keep doing it deep down. It also technically proves that you're relying on your repentance for salvation, and not in Christ's sacrifice alone that leads to genuine repentance; making you unsaved.

Why does relying on Christ's sacrifice lead you to genuine repentance?

Well:
"Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?" - Romans 2:4

When you genuinely believe he died for your sins, you feel very guilty, like "I'm so sorry God, but thank you so much!"

The animal sacrifices were a good reflection of this. When you kill an innocent animal, do you not feel remorse for your actions? This is how true repentance works. Not "oh no I got caught doing this evil thing, I'll stop doing it and I'll work on being better so I don't go to hell".... For one, that's relying on your works to earn you a ticket into heaven, but the wages of sin is death. It's already too late to start doing what's right. For two, you only stopped because you got caught. If you didn't get caught, you'd keep doing it.

 

[Wick Stick]

That's one of satan's favorite deceptions... too bad you bought it hook, line, and stinker View attachment 47995

It's not really an argument, is it? Just an assertion with nothing behind it.

 

[St. SteVen]

Do you think infants go to heaven if they haven't accepted Jesus as their saviour?

What is your position on that? Or the mentally impaired? (same question)

/

 

[hies]

What is your position on that? Or the mentally impaired? (same question)

/

David's infant died, yet he said he knows he will see him again in 2 Samuel 12:23

Jesus said heaven belongs to children in Matthew 19:14

Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. - John 9:41

So it's clear if someone hasn't reached the age of accountability they will probably enter heaven. I was asking him because if you believe in eternal conscious torment, and that infants aren't inherently saved, you essentially believe infants are born into hell, or "limbo" as some Catholics refer to it as.

 

[St. SteVen]

David's infant died, yet he said he knows he will see him again in 2 Samuel 12:23

Jesus said heaven belongs to children in Matthew 19:14

Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. - John 9:41

So it's clear if someone hasn't reached the age of accountability they will probably enter heaven. I was asking him because if you believe in eternal conscious torment, and that infants aren't inherently saved, you essentially believe infants are born into hell, or "limbo" as some Catholics refer to it as.

Thanks. I agree for the most part. But this does open a doctrinal can of worms. Not everyone agrees with your position.

You are allowing for other ways to salvation that do not require faith in Jesus Christ in this lifetime. What is the truth in this matter of opinion?

]