Apokatastasis in the Bible

[marks]

As in...how can we KNOW if someone who boats of his own humility is really humble? All claims of being righteous are SELF-righteous.

What many here haven't yet figured out is that Abraham never claimed to be righteous. Neither did the Publican.

Only modern believers have been that duped.

You didn't answer my question, but this does not surprise me.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

As in...how can we KNOW if someone who boasts of his own humility is really humble? All claims of being righteous are SELF-righteous. Who is saying it?

LOL
Reminds me of this parenthetical. (who wrote this?) - LOL

Numbers 12:3 NIV
(Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.)

 

[MatthewG]

You might be interested in this video

Very good overall description of what the bible talks about concerning "hell."

He has changed a tad bit from his former view here - when he finally did a teaching verse by verse, on Revelation. Accepting Jesus as a victorious King.

Why are faithless people claimed to be outside of the gates of the city in heaven? <- Which is more of a view like this, but overall Hell was a covering place for the dead with two separate compartments.

Here is the topic on Lake of Fire.

All the best.

Did either one of these videos help you @Eternally Grateful understand a little bit more about Hell, and the Lake of Fire?

 

[Jack]

I'm often told that Christian Universalism isn't in the Bible.
Now we know better.

Agree or disagree?


@Patrick1966

I agree with Jesus. He said you're wrong. You didn't heed the warning so you got deceived!

1 Corinthians 6
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

As in...how can we KNOW if someone who boasts of his own humility is really humble? All claims of being righteous are SELF-righteous. Who is saying it?

What many here haven't yet figured out is that Abraham never claimed to be righteous. Neither did the Publican.

Only modern believers have been so duped into thinking we have any say in that.

There is a correct answer to the question that Marks asked. But he didn't ask the question you supposed.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Did you miss verse 16?

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Sorry, no cigar. First of all, the NIV got it wrong. Second, condemnation is the topic of that passage, not salvation. His purpose in Romans chapters 1 and 2 is to bring every human being under the condemnation of sin. Essentially, Paul defines the bad news before he preaches the good news.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Silly strawman. I'm righteous if I claim to be...and I'm not if I don't? That's about the depth of thinking that goes into that.

Well since that is not what I said. You just once again prove your lack of comprehension skills..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You didn't answer my question, but this does not surprise me.

Much love!

Typical of him. No matter where he goes

 

[Wrangler]

Is that your final answer?

How would a Muslim, a Hindu, and a Buddhist answer those questions?

Why does it matter what other religionists answer? This thread is about God redeeming the world, right?

When we stand before God - or his agents - on Judgement Day, do you really suppose the verdict depends on the elocution of our tongue? Really?

 

[St. SteVen]

Why does it matter what other religionists answer? This thread is about God redeeming the world, right?

When we stand before God - or his agents - on Judgement Day, do you really suppose the verdict depends on the elocution of our tongue? Really?

Are you saying that Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists will not be in the judgment?
If so, how will they be judged?

 

[Wrangler]

Are you saying that Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists will not be in the judgment?

No. All will be judged.

If so, how will they be judged?

According to Romans 2. NOTE: Reference to Jew and non-Jew and to everyone. This includes Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists, etc.


Suffering and pain await everyone whose life is marked by evil living (first for the Jew, and next for the non-Jew). 10 But if you do what is right, you will receive glory, admiration, and peace (again, first for the Jew, then for the non-Jew). 11 God has no favorites.

12 If one lives life without knowledge of the law—the teachings of the Torah—he will sin and die apart from the law. If someone else lives life under the law, his sin will be judged by what the law teaches. 13 Here’s my point: just because a person hears the law read or recited does not mean he is right before the one True God; it is following the law that makes one right, not just hearing it. 14-15 For instance, some outsiders who are not required to follow the law often live quite naturally by its teachings. Even though the law wasn’t given to them, in themselves they have the law. Here’s the thing: their lives demonstrate that God has inscribed the law’s teachings on their hearts. On judgment day, their consciences will testify for them, and their thoughts will both accuse and defend them.
Romans 2:9-15 (VOICE)

 

[St. SteVen]

According to Romans 2. NOTE: Reference to Jew and non-Jew and to everyone. This includes Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists, etc.


Suffering and pain await everyone whose life is marked by evil living (first for the Jew, and next for the non-Jew). 10 But if you do what is right, you will receive glory, admiration, and peace (again, first for the Jew, then for the non-Jew). 11 God has no favorites.

12 If one lives life without knowledge of the law—the teachings of the Torah—he will sin and die apart from the law. If someone else lives life under the law, his sin will be judged by what the law teaches. 13 Here’s my point: just because a person hears the law read or recited does not mean he is right before the one True God; it is following the law that makes one right, not just hearing it. 14-15 For instance, some outsiders who are not required to follow the law often live quite naturally by its teachings. Even though the law wasn’t given to them, in themselves they have the law. Here’s the thing: their lives demonstrate that God has inscribed the law’s teachings on their hearts. On judgment day, their consciences will testify for them, and their thoughts will both accuse and defend them.

Thanks.
This actually proves my point.
"On judgment day, their consciences will testify for them, and their thoughts will both accuse and defend them."

Add verse 16,

Romans 2:16 NIV
This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[Wrangler]

This actually proves my point.

What was your point? I recall you merely asking a question.

 

[St. SteVen]

From the OP for @hies

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"... until the time comes for God to restore everything,"

There it is. Here's the NT Greek.

ἀποκαταστάσεως (apokatastaseōs) — 1 Occurrence
Acts 3:21 N-GFS
GRK: ἄχρι χρόνων ἀποκαταστάσεως πάντων ὧν
NAS: [the] period of restoration of all things
KJV: the times of restitution of all things,
INT: until times of restoration of all things of which

So, "What is it?" you might ask.

Apocatastasis
In theology, apocatastasis is the restoration of creation to a condition of perfection.
In Christianity, it is a form of Christian universalism that includes the ultimate salvation of everyone
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm often told that Christian Universalism isn't in the Bible.
Now we know better.

]

 

[hies]

From the OP for @hies

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"... until the time comes for God to restore everything,"

There it is. Here's the NT Greek.

ἀποκαταστάσεως (apokatastaseōs) — 1 Occurrence
Acts 3:21 N-GFS
GRK: ἄχρι χρόνων ἀποκαταστάσεως πάντων ὧν
NAS: [the] period of restoration of all things
KJV: the times of restitution of all things,
INT: until times of restoration of all things of which

So, "What is it?" you might ask.

Apocatastasis
In theology, apocatastasis is the restoration of creation to a condition of perfection.
In Christianity, it is a form of Christian universalism that includes the ultimate salvation of everyone
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm often told that Christian Universalism isn't in the Bible.
Now we know better.

]

"In theology, apocatastasis is the restoration of creation to a condition of perfection" - I agree that this will happen
"In Christianity, it is a form of Christian universalism that includes the ultimate salvation of everyone" - I disagree that this will happen

You can restore everything by destroying the vile and evil things so that only the perfect remains. If your house was filled with garbage, would you paint it a pretty colour, or would you throw it into the trash?

And again, you still haven't answered how this restoration and correction isn't forcing people who rejected Christ to be good/correct against their will.

Read this: What is apocatastasis, and is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

 

[St. SteVen]

And again, you still haven't answered how this restoration and correction isn't forcing people who rejected Christ to be good/correct against their will.

I never claimed that UR was forcing people to be good. That's your claim.

Those who claim to hate Christ haven't met him yet. That makes all the difference.

]

 

[hies]

I never claimed that UR was forcing people to be good. That's your claim.

Those who claim to hate Christ haven't met him yet. That makes all the difference.

]

"Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed." - John 3:20

People hate Jesus. And they hate the truth. Why do you think exposing them to more of him and more truth will make them love him all of a sudden? It doesn't work like that. They don't want to be good. They don't want to repent of their sin. And some never will. This is just a fact.

You might ask "how can people hate Jesus?"

A simple answer to that is because he's coming back to judge sin. And the consequences for it are death and eternal separation from God. This is something you hate too so I think you can relate. But you didn't really respond to any of my points here: Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?

So I'll leave it at that

 

[St. SteVen]

Why do you think exposing them to more of him and more truth will make them love him all of a sudden?

Exposing them to you will make them hate him all the more.

That's why I am on this forum. To confront the absolute insanity of so-called Christians.

--- PARODY ---

Christian: You should become a Christian.
Victim: Why on earth would I want to do that?
Christian: Huh? What do you mean?
Victim: Christians are the worst people on the planet.
Christian: No, sinners like you are the worst.
Victim: Seriously?
Christian: Yes, that's what the Bible says.
Victim: Doesn't it also say not to judge others?
Christian: I'm not judging you. That will come latter.
Victim: Like when?
Christian: After you die without Christ.
Victim: Are you talking about a forever burning hell?
Christian: Yes, that's where you are going.
Victim: How would you know?
Christian: Again, that's what the Bible says.
Victim: But what do you say?
Christian: I agree with the Bible.
Victim: You are proving my point about why I don't want to be a Christian.
Christian: Why not?
Victim: I don't want to be like you.

Indeed.

/

 

[hies]

Exposing them to you will make them hate him all the more.

That's why I am on this forum. To confront the absolute insanity of so-called Christians.

--- PARODY ---

Christian: You should become a Christian.
Victim: Why on earth would I want to do that?
Christian: Huh? What do you mean?
Victim: Christians are the worst people on the planet.
Christian: No, sinners like you are the worst.
Victim: Seriously?
Christian: Yes, that's what the Bible says.
Victim: Doesn't it also say not to judge others?
Christian: I'm not judging you. That will come latter.
Victim: Like when?
Christian: After you die without Christ.
Victim: Are you talking about a forever burning hell?
Christian: Yes, that's where you are going.
Victim: How would you know?
Christian: Again, that's what the Bible says.
Victim: But what do you say?
Christian: I agree with the Bible.
Victim: You are proving my point about why I don't want to be a Christian.
Christian: Why not?
Victim: I don't want to be like you.

Indeed.

/

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. - 1 John 3:2-3"

Some people don't want to be made pure. They hate the light. And they even hated Jesus to the point of death when he was here, so it has nothing to do with me.

 

[St. SteVen]

Some people don't want to be made pure. They hate the light. And they even hated Jesus to the point of death when he was here, so it has nothing to do with me.

That's a temporal view that you are stuck on.

Do you really think people will hold on to such animosities when they enter the afterlife and see what is there.
Do you think they will stand up and shake a fist at Jesus when they are face to face with his pure love and acceptance?

Oh, wait you envision an angry hate-filled Jesus, right? --- I suppose that would change things. - LOL

Like the bumper sticker:

Jesus is coming...
And boy is he pissed!

]