It's okay. I like to hear different perspectives and opinions. :)
Anybody else?
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Why are you so abusive?
Well, that’s their error.
The Scriptures that they accept, do. Re: the Devil, see Job 1 & Job 2
Re: salvation, see Psalm 37:29; Proverbs 2:20; Joel 2:32; etc.
Re: Hell, that is Sheol. It is in the Hebrew Scriptures 65 times.
The patriarch Jacob said he was going there, and thought Joseph was there…
(Genesis 37:35, Douay
“And all his children being gathered together to comfort their father in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: I will go down to my son into hell, mourning. And whilst he continued weeping,”)
…..and Job wanted to go there to escape his suffering.
(Job 14:10, Douay
“Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a. time when thou wilt remember me?”
Christendom’s main tenet of Hell, that it is a place of torture/torment, is not a Scriptural teaching.
“The dead know nothing” Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 146:3,4. See John 11:11-14.
If, then, they “know nothing”, they are “sleeping”, they can’t experience torment, can they?
Neither does Jacob nor Job. They are in the “ground” (Gen. 3:19), until their Resurrection. - John 5:28,29. See Daniel 12:2,13… John 6:39.
I’m sorry, but your Bible has mistranslated “Ge*enna” for Hades. Hades is hell, not Gehenna.
There’s no fire in hell.
(That’s why, as I stated in an earlier response, Jacob and Job are there.)
In fact, hell is “cast into” the Lake of Fire. So is death. (Revelation 20:13,14)
How can you burn death? How can you burn hell?
PS95
Well-Known Member
Oh please. I don't misunderstand a thing and you know that. Word game deceit is such a hobby with Jws. You've learned well, grasshopper.
That’s good.
Though I’m sure you’ve heard this: Keep an open mind, but not so open where your brain falls out, lol!
Whenever you hear something about the Bible, it will help if you ask yourself two questions:
How can I relate this idea to God being a God of love? (1 John 4:8)
and…
How does this idea relate to God’s justice?
(Deuteronomy 32:4,5)
(Some Scriptural accounts might seem to cast doubts on these two facts… we can discuss them. If you’d like.)
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
There are different interpretations of Job.
Satan walks into the holy court of God.
Some see Satan role there as a tester of righteousness on earth.
No disagreement between Yahweh and Satan in Job.
And of course Satan is not identified as a devil in Job or anywhere else in the Old Testament. And the tempter in Eden is not identified as Satan or a devil.
God does not warn anybody about Satan in the Old Testament.
So there is no reason for the Jews to believe in a devil.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You must be running the KJV.
The Hebrew does not have words for Hades or Hell….Hades is a Greek word and the word Hell does not exists until around the 7th century.
Punishment by Hell fire does not exist in the Old Testament.
So Sheol is not Hell and there is no description of Sheol that includes fire
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Hades a Greek word is not going to be in a Hebrew text which was written thousands of years before the Greek language existed.
Hades was a Greek God that presided over a realm of the same name which was a spirit prison….no fire.
No ..... Hell or Hades are not in the actual scriptures. It all an invention of the KJV.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Good for you....! Jesus said “you will know the truth and the truth shall set you free”.....
God will draw you to his truth if you have the right heart (John 6:44; 65)......and no one and nothing can stop you learning it.....as an example look at the first Christians......no one had a good word to say about them.....didn’t make them wrong and it never stopped those with the right heart from coming to know the truth.
He will never draw those who think they know better than him......
The highly respected Greek Septuagint (LXX), written c. 200 BC by Greek-speaking Jews, translated the Hebrew “Sheol” into “Hades.” These words are equivalent to each other, according to those Jewish authors. And both Sheol & Hades, in many translations, are rendered “hell”.
There is no fire, in hell.
(There is no literal fire, anywhere, awaiting anyone who dies. God is not a fiend.)
PS95
Well-Known Member
Ok. Perhaps, I am too protective of others since I have been down the Jw road and it is not true and it destroys lives and that you can easily be sure of. They have some truths as they all do~ What they are missing though is JESUS. I am sure that you must know that the scriptures teach that Jesus died for our sins. Jws do not teach that at all. They teach that He was an angel who died for Adam's sin. However, Adam will never be forgiven. Christians know that Jesus died to forgive our sins and took our punishment. So many scriptures prove that.
What Jesus did according to JWs is open the way for us to maybe gain everlasting life after 1000 yrs-- IF
You become a Jw,
go door to door or online and convert others, & turn in your card with hours on it.
do not ever celebrate a birthday, or Thanksgiving or Mother's day or any holiday because that's wordly and pagan.
do not ever vote in an election
if you are a police officer- resign- if you have a gun
do not play in after school sports or join any club
never salute or own a flag
dont own windchimes
never take a blood transfusion (all fractions of blood are allowed just not if they are together or are main componants)
never donate blood
never serioulsy question the teachings of the Governing Body- they are going to heaven when they die
must accept all new light teachings even if opposite of the day before and even if it chnages back again
never partake of the bread or the cup of communion, you must come but dont partake
You are not a part of Christ's body
you are not in the New covenant
Jesus is not your mediator
you are not born anew
you are not a spirit child of God
you must shun apostates- people who leave the "organization"
you must not wear a cross
you must wear skirts or dresses to meetings
men- suits- no beards! ( oh wait that just changed and Jehovah now says beards are ok) tough luck to the men who we shunned for beards
do not belong to any club where you associate with non Jws
can not be a union steward or shop steward
no involvement in union strike
can not smoke
no alcoholics annonymous
can not own gun for protection
read books or magazines or literature from other religions
dont wear military uniform or join armed forces
dont contribute to pres election on tax form
do not associate with co-workers after hours in a social setting
do not associate with non-Jws if not necessary
no cheerleading
no jury duty
do not join YMCA
do not play bingo
do not sing National Anthem
do not toast a drink
do not gamble
do not buy a raffle ticket
do not buy anything from a church garage sale, or a church store
do not prophecy
no martial arts
no yoga exercises
There are more............. my arm is getting tired of typing.
as far as the how hot is hell? stuff--- No one that I know who has died has come back to tell me a thing. No one really knows & if they say they do, you may want chew on that. There is something to be said for an honest IDK. There is something to Jesus' story of the'" rich man and Lazarus" ,or he would not have given us the idea that the dead man was aware & suffering, would he?
Jesus spoke about something unpleasant after death many many times. If we are simply asleep as Jws say --why would Jesus do that?
I know your a grown up, and decisions are your own, but just trust me if you dont KNOW your bible and the Lord- Jws come across as very knowledgable etc. If you know the scriptures and the Lord~ you can see their error. Sadly, they truly miss the big picture, and that Is, Jesus. I have Jw family. I dont say any of this lightly. I say all of it out of basic human concern for you. ~~Pray & read your bible~~! I will be praying for you.
VictoryinJesus
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As I’m reading through the thread I can understand why you mentioned earlier that Christians can’t even agree with each other.
At least you appreciate all the varied perspectives and opinions. Otherwise you’d probably already be out of here saying we are crazy. That is what makes me doubt God the most…how we all say something different and every one of us thinks we are right. Me included. It’s confusing. It has to be confusing when someone wants to ask questions and they get a different answer every time becoming a wishbone stuck in between who is right.
one of my favorites is
1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love you need not that I write unto you: for you yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
I’ve met people who don’t or haven’t read the bible at all. Maybe they’ve heard verses, but they wouldn’t be able to come on the board and stand their ground in a bible debate. because they haven’t formed an opinion. Yet you can see God has already been teaching them that “you ought to love one another.” That is why I love that “for you yourself are taught of God to love one another.”
i have a friend who has lost every member of her family except for her husband, and he has diabetes really bad. She lost her only daughter. And her only sister. my friend is only 56. She doesn’t read the bible. How she can make it after her daughter passed…still smile, still do caring things for others…baffles me. Just sharing she is one example I know of someone who doesn’t have an opinion to debate with, but the love is there.
PS95
Well-Known Member
Auntie Jane, you have been shunning me on here since you announced it on this thread..
Q for JW- KIEW?
Hi Kiew, you've stated this a couple of times now on another thread-- "Romans 6:7-Acquitted of all sin at death. The judgement God gave to all men=The wages of sin = death. Once dead have paid in full the wages of sin. Gods pure justice could not rejudge one on past sins once they died and paid...
www.christianityboard.com
Ever since you found out that my Jw family shuns me & my family (20+ yrs now) and I am one of soooo many people who are shunned by your group and our families. They believe that's what God wants from them, so be it. I hold no grudges toward them. I know they are
being misled by a teaching of man.
I was never baptized so I should not be technically shunned, but you also shun people who simply oppose what you teach and are Christians. Why?
Is it because Jws call Christians antichrists and that Jws are taught that they alone have God's approval and that we all pray to satan? Yes, that is what's taught.
So, please stop the silliness (above) about how you are so persecuted like the true church was.
Jesus was accused of doing miracles by satan according to the Pharisees. That's what you say of us.
There are Christians all over the globe being killed for their faith every day. Check out Voice of the Martyrs. I know you wont. That is persection.
Disagreeing is not persecution. Getting angry with you is not. Jws call Christians all sorts of horrid names on this forum. I think that you know how God hates uneven scales- but you refuse to look into the mirror.
You guys are on here for one reason only and that is to convert people to your false religion & get your hours box checked by the "Org" so you can stay a Jw in "good standing".
Otherwise, you would enjoy fellowship on JW forums- where they do not even allow Christians to join or read. Let's face it you are NOT here to associate or have fellowship. youare not allowed. You are here to convert. End of story. How about some honesrty?
Reasons for shunning 'baptized" JWs ranges from- disagreeing with a bad teaching- to having a beard to- baking birthday cakes -to questioning the governing body seriously- not able to keep that hours box checked- to immorality.
It is NOT biblical. It is hateful.
There is a good reason I wasnt baptized and maybe someday I will share that on here. I will consider sharing why we are shunned as well. I know that none of it will phase you, but I may to help others to understand what Jws do.
With all of the JW false prophecies you would think that you would get the message- but instead Jws call others who have prophecied the same exact way and also were wrong- false prophets. Kettle meet pot? but no, you guys make excuses for all of them! Where are the excuses for the others who have done it once? Once is all it takes.
All of that pales in comparison with how you withold the free gift of Jesus from others. You wont go in and you stop others. I dont think you even know how wrong you are. in fact I know you are convinced of your nonsense that when you die physically that you've paid for your sins and don't need Jesus to pay for you. No.
That does not change the simple truth that none of it is true.
Romans 6:23---
a wage is what you have earned - you can not pay it yourself. It is what you deserve. The rest of the sentence is most important yet you rarely quote it. BUT the gift--- Let's look at it?
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
For the wages of sin is death--
The wage is what we are paid. what we deserve. what God pays us with is death. We are not paying HIM. He is paying our wage. what we have earned...
provisions; a stipend or pay of soldiers, Lk. 3:14; 1 Cor. 9:7; wages of any kind, 2 Cor. 11:8; due wages, a stated recompense, Rom. 6:23
ὀψώνιον (opsōnion)
Strong: G3800
GK: G4072so we have-- "THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH" .. (.. keep going....)
BUT
the free gift ( charisma)
a free favor, free gift, Rom. 5:15, 16; 6:23; 2 Cor. 1:11; benefit, Rom. 1:11; a divinely conferred endowment, 1 Cor. 12:4, 9, 28, 30, 31
χάρισμα (charisma)
Strong: G5486GK: G5922
but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Sin pays you death. <---- OR<---->Christ gives you life.
Your choice---
Die in your sins (without Christ) = death
OR
DEAD TO SIN in CHRIST who PAID for YOUR sins = LIFE
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
PS95
Well-Known Member
I am so sorry that the bickering on here makes you doubt God. It is not HIS fault! The internet reveals all of the crazy! I dont think that they consider each other brothers and sisters in the Lord. They're so very far apart.. from what i've read.
I really think most are of the unchurched crowd with cultish churches adding to the fire. I dont know where some of them are getting their ideas other than their own heads to be honest. They mangle the scriptures. It's not good. We think we can go it alone without real time fellowship and loving accountability, and it's just not a good idea at all. but, all hail the internet. blah
Yes, you are right about knowing folks who seem more loving yet dont blow the dust off the bible. That is FOR SURE.
It's just not meant to be this complicated!!!! HUMANS complicate it! The simplicity of Christ....
" I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin. 3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, this you tolerate"
That is what happens here daily. ----------- Keep your eyes fixed my sister, and you will never fall. Nice to meet you.
Yes, you are right.
Dante's Inferno was, up to that time, the most detailed work regarding the torments of Hell. It was written in the early 1300s, and is the first book of the trilogy called Divine Comedy, which supposedly documents the author's travels through the underworld.
Although the teaching of hell as a place of torment, originated only a few centuries before that. Though you probably already knew that.
Who or what would be the source of such a vision?
Jesus did mention fire such as at Matthew chaps.18 & 25, but what did he mean? Does fire in the Bible, always have to be literal?
I have to go, but maybe @Aunty Jane can pick up where I left off.
Best wishes, cousin.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I am sure they did the best they could. In a way this is the story of the difficulties of translating the language from one culture to a language of another culture. And a lot of this applies to the process of translating as a whole.
So we have Jews translating Hebrew scriptures into the Greek called the Septuagint ….Matching two languages, but there was no Greek word that was the equivalent for the word Sheol. The Hebrew understanding of Sheol was that it was where all people went to when they died as in “….And as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age or Abraham breathed his last and died in a ripe old age, an old man and satisfied with life; and he was gathered to his people.. There is no example of people being judged to Sheol for being bad. But still Sheol is not well defined. ….Are they conscience or not? Well in the New Testament Christ spoke with Moses and Elijah. So does this mean they are conscience? (Or were they already in Heaven?)
And some believe that Christ went to Sheol to preach the Gospel to the Jews after the cross. So what does all that mean? I am going to say that it is not all that well defined. Even modern Jewish scholars have different opinions on Sheol. And Sheol is a topic that I have discussed with professors at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. So back then when the Jews were translating the Hebrew to Greek they were faced with the fact that the Greek did not have a word that included the meaning of Sheol. So why did the translators of the Septuagint pick the word Hades?
What does Hades mean? Hades was a Greco-Roman god that reigned over a spiritual place of the dead of the same name. The Greeks and Romans had a lot of stories about the place called Hades. You can read about them here … Hades - Wikipedia
In Greek mythology, all mortals went to the realm of Hades, also known as Erebus, after they died. Three judges, Rhadamanthus, Minos, and Aeacus, would decide where each person would go based on their life. Three distinct areas of Hades, for example, people who lived normal lives would go to the Fields of Asphodel, while heroes would go to the Fields of Elysium. Tartarus was a black pit for the bad and where the gods imprisoned their enemies after they died. Very few living persons could enter or leave Hades once they entered, with the exceptions of Hercules and Theseus.
(It is an important point to understand that for the Greco-Romans Hades was more or less like Heaven and Sheol and Hell.)
The Ancient Greeks didn’t really have a concept of “damnation” or even sin. Going to Hades was just the natural consequence of death. The concept of Hades did evolve over time, so that it had stories of several realms:
So the Jews were looking for an equivalent Greek word for Sheol but there was none. Although Hades like Sheol was where all the dead went, Hades had good levels and bad levels where the environment was similar to the physical earth. And sometimes people that were still living went to Hades to rescue people there. So why did the Jews pick Hades to represent Sheol?….It was the only spiritual place in the afterlife that was represented in the Greek language?
Regardless of the differences between the two places the Jewish translators chose Hades to represent Sheol. So a lot of the information and storylines in the Old Testament about Sheol replaced the Greek definition and information regarding Hades.
The meanings of the two places became confusing. For example if a Jew would say Hades to a Roman, the Roman would be thinking something different than what the Jew meant.
The Apostles ran into the same problems….even more, they were dealing with two definitions of Hades. The Apostles were dealing with Sheol and Hades and a eternal fiery place of punishment which the Hebrew nor Greek had a name for, and none of them had the same description. In addition the New Testament includes the concept of a battle between good and evil and the Devil.
But in the Christian version of the Greek the word Hades was a fiery place of eternal
punishment. Christ and the Apostles were talking about and warning about this horrific place of eternal punishment by fire and a Judgment Day where all would be judged and sent to Heaven or "Hell." But none of this fit the actual descriptions of Sheol or Hades. And the Greek did not have words for Heaven or Hell.
In their words the punishment was eternal. When they were talking about this eternal place of punishment they described it as fire or a furnace, always burning and associated with pain. This association with fire and burning is repeated over and over again throughout the New Testament. Still there had to be problems with redefining a well known word. For example, when they started converting the Pagans and told them that they would go to Hades if they did not believe in Christ.
How many shrugged their shoulders and a replied, So what everybody goes to Hades.
This fiery place of punishment was actually a new concept that was not represented in Judaism or in Greek Mythology. The only other religion besides Christianity that had such a fiery place of punishment was Zoroastrianism.
The word Hell was not an option in the biblical period because the word 'Hell' is derived from an Anglo-Saxon word hellia (derived from the Old English, Old Norse, Old High German, hel, helle, circa. 725 AD)
So what was the alternative? Rather than defining a new word or changing the meaning of a word, the God Yeshua used the illustration of Gehenna for the fiery place of eternal punishment. Gehenna....which comes from the Hebrew phrase gey' hinnom, which means "valley of wailing.” Gehenna refers to the valley south of Jerusalem where corrupt Israelite kings sacrificed children to other gods as burnt offerings. And at the time of Christ’s ministry the Romans dumped trash and dead bodies into the flames of Gehenna. A form of sanitation.
But the Apostles decided to adopt the Greek word Hades and include it in the Christian Greek whereby they adopted Greek words but changed the meanings and context. Like the Greek word sin that had nothing to do with morality and simply meant that a Roman missed his target. So they took the Greek word Hades and redefined it as a place where Christ would judge “bad people” to and they would be punished with fire for eternity. Which again…does not agree with the Greek definition of Hades or the Jewish definition of Sheol.
So this outlines the difficulty of translating one language into another when they do not have similar words or concepts.
So now a days most of this does not apply, we have the word Hell and understand its meaning. And we have the word Sheol and understand what it means, so there is no justifiable reason to insert Hades, a mythological place into the Old Testament scriptures. The god of Hades nor the place called Hades ever existed. The Old Testament scriptures meant Sheol and more actuate translations use the word Sheol and that is why I say if you have a Bible with the word Hades in the Old Testament you should find a more accurate Bible because there are a lot more errors in that Bible. The Jews did not and do not believe in Hell and Christians do not believe in Hades. For Christians the New Testament defines an eternal place of fiery torment that we call Hell.
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VictoryinJesus
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No need to apologize. It’s my choice to engage. I could walk away from all the different perspectives and choose not to read or listen to them. Reading all the different perspectives has helped me see there are a constant flow of different views. I’m not blaming God for it…it just makes me wonder how I can ever fully trust the things I’m persuaded of. Like how can there ever be certainty when mine is just another opinion among many.
You said “The internet reveals all of the crazy.”
To me it’s the opposite and it’s the bible which manifest all the crazy. To me it’s significant what doctrines or things we cling to as our pet verses or theology …the bible manifesting what is in our heart by what is revealed …made seen. If my heart is centered on money…then the bible will manifest that love by the verses I use to support my getting the money. If I were a man and wanted multiple wives…I’ll seek verses that say I should have multiple wives. We should be able …the world included …to see what is in the heart by what comes out of our mouth as “God says this” …our favorite go-to places in the bible. our opinions and finding our clicks that best fit what we believe. Isn’t that a separation …a dividing up into groupings of: like mindedness?
Don’t get me wrong. Even though she doesn’t read the bible she will be the first to acknowledge God as helping. She doesn’t assign bible knowledge to God but instead her life walk…saying she has lost so many things and come to a place where God is really all she has left as comfort. sad is she will tell me she thinks God is disappointed in her because she doesn’t go to church. I tell her even though she doesn’t sit in a pew or read the bible…her strength in still trusting God is good after all she has endured amazes me. How I don’t think God is disappointed in her for not sitting in a pew or for not reading her bible. That is just my opinion.
PS95
Well-Known Member
Hmm I dont think that is the fault of the bible- but it is due taking verses out of context as well as historical meaning. The bible as a whole harmonizes. I see may who still dont understand faith/works. They misunderstand James, and by doing that they also misunderstand Paul and end up teaching neither!
I dont see this bickering in real life. I know people from various churches and we may have minor differences on non-salvational issues and thats key- it doesnt really matter- we see that in Pauls day- everyone was not in lock- step comformity-- and he did not say to be- those things arent salvational so there is liberty. Holidays, sabbaths, foods, etc- he said not to judge another over those, but to welcome them.
The believers I know arent the way they are on here. This place is ridiculous. I do think it's the internet- anyone posts anything- we dont know these people. do you know belivers in real life who act this way? I dont- just cults.
It's all about the heart! Recall the Pharisses- lots of knowledge, sticklers for the word, yet they didnt know the love of God, they knew rules and were hypocritical.
I think your friend would enjoy some fellowship tho. There are many many loving people!! Share one anothers burdens, you know?
May the Lord bless her.
