Leaders That Don't Support Good Works or Overcoming Sin

[Hepzibah]

A change of thought--Question, do you hold to sinless perfection?

Only if it is correctly understood - which it is not. It does not mean that a man can never sin again. It does not give a man the same attributes as God. It means that a man is able to not sin, but he can fall from that.

@Hepzibah-are you "deified"

I have been walking in that previously, about four times, once for 18 months. Not at the moment and I am not quite sure why as I do not sin deliberately. However God is doing a work on me, healing some very deep trauma that I was unaware of. But it might have nothing to do with my own spiritual walk and be due to the times we are in.

And what about the Imperatives recorded in Scriptures? We are to WORK out our own salvation with fear and trembling and incorrect--we are not "working for our sanctification"
What about Theosis? You agree with that and how the ECF taught it?

J.

Yes we are to live it out, by staying there and growing in the knowledge of God and spiritual warfare. We are to be alert at all times as Satan is forever trying to take us out hence the fear and trembling that is holy fear of God who will allow/not allow the enemies work.

On the ECF, I agree with the main but do not agree that it is obtained through the sacraments, I think that is misunderstood as feeding on Him by faith is what the scripture says and what hey may mean and when they say baptism, I read Spirit baptism which they say takes place after water baptism when a bishop lays hands on the subject.

I am however not an expert and do not set myself up as such. I find out the more I progress the less I know about the spiritual realm and constantly learn new things and yes may change my stance but just on the details.

 

[Johann]

Only if it is correctly understood - which it is not. It does not mean that a man can never sin again. It does not give a man the same attributes as God. It means that a man is able to not sin, but he can fall from that.


I have been walking in that previously, about four times, once for 18 months. Not at the moment and I am not quite sure why as I do not sin deliberately. However God is doing a work on me, healing some very deep trauma that I was unaware of. But it might have nothing to do with my own spiritual walk and be due to the times we are in.

Yes we are to live it out, by staying there and growing in the knowledge of God and spiritual warfare. We are to be alert at all times as Satan is forever trying to take us out hence the fear and trembling that is holy fear of God who will allow/not allow the enemies work.

On the ECF, I agree with the main but do not agree that it is obtained through the sacraments, I think that is misunderstood as feeding on Him by faith is what the scripture says and what hey may mean and when they say baptism, I read Spirit baptism which they say takes place after water baptism when a bishop lays hands on the subject.

I am however not an expert and do not set myself up as such. I find out the more I progress the less I know about the spiritual realm and constantly learn new things and yes may change my stance but just on the details.

I respect your honesty and not "tap dancing" around my questions @Hepzibah. There are so many Pauline verses coming to mind but I respect you and what you believe.
Have a blessed day brother.
Johann.

 

[Hepzibah]

Sister.

Thank you. God bless.

 

[Wynona]

You have utterly ignored the scripture I just gave you. WHY? doesnt fit in with your theology? You should reconsider that.
as for MacArthur- all I did was correct a mistaken opinion of his teachings abt 1 topic.
They thought perhaps he taught licentousness-- and you think he is teaching how to earn your salvation.
This is Hilarious.

IJust a side note. Were you thinking I thought John MacArthur taught hyper grace? I actually have heard different of him from the beginning but am not familiar with his teachings directly.

Steve Brown's Key Life ministries definitely teaches license to sin. It is incredibly misleading. Yet you can hear him on Christian radio stations across the country.

 

[Lizbeth]

Hi Lizbeth, what I am having trouble getting past, is that Mary is the mother of Christ, not the bride. Will give it more thought.


That is taking 'the day of Christ' to mean when He returns physically, whereas He had returned to the disciples after the Resurrection, breathing the Holy Spirit on them, and likewise, this is called the point in a believers life when with Pentecost, they really do enter into the new life in Christ. Previous to this was the training period, Purgation or the wilderness time. The early Quakers understood it this way too and they took a lot of their theology from the early church teachings. It is really taking things to a much deeper level.


Yes this lines up with what I have said, leaving off the addition you made which is meant to agree with your and the common interpretation. The idea is found in many scriptures, it is not just taking one verse out of context.


Again, it says perfected without your additions.


See there are many verses that do not have to be taken on the level you take them.

These things are for spiritual revelation and not for human reasoning and and adding to scripture which we are warned against. This is the way of cherry pickers, when the Bible must be taken as a whole, not a bunch of texts.

I'm not adding anything.....this is the Amplified Bible version, not intended to be a word for word translation but attempting to give the sense of what is written. They have put in brackets to indicate where they are using their own words.

Mary was literally and physically the mother of Jesus who literally and physically conceived and carried and gave birth to Him. But the process of her receiving seed/word, conception, gestation and finally giving birth to the Son....is just a "picture" of how things go with the believer. We conceive Christ in us when we receive/believe the word/seed of God, and what has been conceived in us is of the Holy Spirit. And Paul wrote using terms of labour and gestation when he said he was "in labour again" that Christ be "formed" in them. It is through much tribulation that we enter the kingdom of heaven......tribulation being likened to labour pains in scripture.....through which we give birth to that which is spirit.....manifesting Christ. When He is in us He is the "hope" of glory.....if we give birth to Him, Christ unveiled/manifested, that is the glory. If we are walking in the spirit we are manifesting Christ.

Those scriptures about God completing/performing/perfecting/finishing/accomplishing the good work He began in us.......also seem to speak to a process which ends in a culmination (potentially at least). I just wondered how you were perceiving this. I don't know you very well, and am not familiar with where you are at with regard to these things. Anyhow that is what I wanted to venture to discuss....the idea of a process of "gestation" culminating in a "birth". Giving birth being the end of a process. Being truly and fully born again....manifesting Christ. Until then, though the new birth is being imputed to us as it were, since we have "conceived" it.....though we still need to "apprehend" it fully and in the meantime are "gestating" until Christ is fully formed in us......"go on to perfection."

(And by the way Mary was also like the believer in that she also bore reproach and was numbered with transgressors as it were.....assumed to have sinned and that is why she was in the "family way" before being married....in danger of not only bearing reproach but of being stoned to death.)

And yes I've wondered about the "day of Christ" and His "appearing"....whether there is a personal application of that for us individually. Christ fully formed and birthed....appearing....being manifested.

 

[Lizbeth]

@Johann wrote: sanctification is both instantaneous and progressive.

Apologies, my concentration was a little off yesterday. I agree but not in the way you mean, in the order that you quote.

I agree that justification and sanctification take place together, but also glorification:

Romans 8:29–30 — “Those whom he justified he also sanctified, and those whom he sanctified he also glorified”

Romans 8:29 - “those whom he foreknew he predestined, and those whom he predestined he called, and those whom he called he justified, and those whom he justified he glorified.”

Romans 8:17 -"If we are children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him."

Col 3:4 -“When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory”.

The last text, I believe, is referring to the appearance of Christ in the life of a believer, as in His appearance to the disciples which I mentioned earlier in my response to Lizbeth and which was taught by the early Quakers and follows the three steps of the ECF 'highway to holiness' finishing in Theosis or union/entire sanctification.

I notice how often the Greek uses present/aorist indicative active and thank you for that study, it is very useful. I sometimes regret not going on from a studies in modern Greek for some evangelistic tours in Greece, to the Koine, but I can get by without, with the help of you clever people..

I stopped after looking up the following: 2 Peter 1:2 Heb 13:12 Rom 6:19 2 Cor. 7:1 eph 2:10 as I thought they were not pertinent.

So yes there is a progressive period as acknowledged in patristic studies, whereby a man who has already turned to Christ, must go through a period of purification or trials, and reach much deeper level of repentance than he had known before, as the man sees himself truly in full exposure, to fit him for the reception of the blessing of entire sanctification/Theosis.

The problem is that men are taking for granted scriptures that do not yet apply to them. They are still in the early stages but take on the promises meant for the latter stages and mainstream Protestantism has brought about this great deception to the church of God, diminishing the power of God that fully sanctified believers have, as seen in the NT and early days of the church, (with glimpses of it at other times) whereby they turn the world upside down, if indeed they are sons of the living God and not merely disciples.

I hope that gives you a good description of where I am at in understanding scripture.

As long as we don't forget that FAITH is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, and the EVIDENCE of THINGS NOT YET SEEN. (All things HAVE been put under the feet of Jesus, even though WE DO NOT YET SEE all things put under.) This is the reason God imputes these things to the believer.....because of faith. We do possess everything but in seed form initially....everything we are going to possess we already do possess as it were....it's all in that seed/conception....Christ IN US, the HOPE of glory. We are told not to despise the day of small beginnings for good reason. But yes I completely agree.......as long as we don't assume we have already "apprehended" or "attained" everything where the rubber hits the road until we actually do manifest it. We need to humbly know the difference between what has been graciously imputed to us as opposed to what we have actually attained. At some point when we are ready the Lord will begin to shine His light into our hearts and start to show us how we are still falling short. We need to allow this process and not let fear make us reject it.....He is not doing it to ultimately condemn us but to bring us to that place of full repentance.

 

[Hepzibah]

I'm not adding anything.....this is the Amplified Bible version, not intended to be a word for word translation but attempting to give the sense of what is written. They have put in brackets to indicate where they are using their own words.

Apologies, I see it now. They of course are interpreting to their own theology and as I hope I have shown, there is not just one interpretation.

Mary was literally and physically the mother of Jesus who literally and physically conceived and carried and gave birth to Him. But the process of her receiving seed/word, conception, gestation and finally giving birth to the Son....is just a "picture" of how things go with the believer. We conceive Christ in us when we receive/believe the word/seed of God, and what has been conceived in us is of the Holy Spirit. And Paul wrote using terms of labour and gestation when he said he was "in labour again" that Christ be "formed" in them. It is through much tribulation that we enter the kingdom of heaven......tribulation being likened to labour pains in scripture.....through which we give birth to that which is spirit.....manifesting Christ. When He is in us He is the "hope" of glory.....if we give birth to Him, Christ unveiled/manifested, that is the glory. If we are walking in the spirit we are manifesting Christ.

I 'got it' last night in bed. Yes it's a good analogy and also how the early church understood it, that we go through a reception of the Word, conceived in us, and then it grows till it is ready for birthing. Paul was of course speaking to believers at this point. The tribulations of pregnancy and birth are very apt regarding to the trials we go through in the stage of Purgation according to the ecf. In this trial period, we learn to see ourselves as wretched men, unable to be victorious over the internal sins, like loving the Lord our God with the whole heart soul and mind which drives us closer to the birthing and the Holy Spirit's baptism so that we can walk in Christ..

Those scriptures about God completing/performing/perfecting/finishing/accomplishing the good work He began in us.......also seem to speak to a process which ends in a culmination (potentially at least). I just wondered how you were perceiving this. I don't know you very well, and am not familiar with where you are at with regard to these things. Anyhow that is what I wanted to venture to discuss....the idea of a process of "gestation" culminating in a "birth". Giving birth being the end of a process. Being truly and fully born again....manifesting Christ. Until then, though the new birth is being imputed to us as it were, since we have "conceived" it.....though we still need to "apprehend" it fully and in the meantime are "gestating" until Christ is fully formed in us......"go on to perfection."

Indeed it is a process and it can be very lengthy. Until that day when we are born again in the Spirit whereas before we *served Him* in the flesh as unsanctified believers. It is then that we are perfected as our heavenly Father is perfect/holy. It is then that the holiness of God is imparted to us whereas previously it was our heritage as yet unfulfilled. I hope I have answered your question on how I see it.

(And by the way Mary was also like the believer in that she also bore reproach and was numbered with transgressors as it were.....assumed to have sinned and that is why she was in the "family way" before being married....in danger of not only bearing reproach but of being stoned to death.)

Agreed.

And yes I've wondered about the "day of Christ" and His "appearing"....whether there is a personal application of that for us individually. Christ fully formed and birthed....appearing....being manifested.

Yes.

 

[Hepzibah]

As long as we don't forget that FAITH is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, and the EVIDENCE of THINGS NOT YET SEEN. (All things HAVE been put under the feet of Jesus, even though WE DO NOT YET SEE all things put under.) This is the reason God imputes these things to the believer.....because of faith. We do possess everything but in seed form initially....everything we are going to possess we already do possess as it were....it's all in that seed/conception....Christ IN US, the HOPE of glory. We are told not to despise the day of small beginnings for good reason. But yes I completely agree.......as long as we don't assume we have already "apprehended" or "attained" everything where the rubber hits the road until we actually do manifest it. We need to humbly know the difference between what has been graciously imputed to us as opposed to what we have actually attained. At some point when we are ready the Lord will begin to shine His light into our hearts and start to show us how we are still falling short. We need to allow this process and not let fear make us reject it.....He is not doing it to ultimately condemn us but to bring us to that place of full repentance.

Agree.

 

[amigo de christo]

And yet you accuse them and fail miserably to show from God why they would be evil.

I agree with #'s 1&2 but you have proven yourself a fraud in defaming what is colloquially called TULIP.

Until you defend your accusations with God instead of you ropinions, you are nothing more than a loud voice that is equivalent to sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal!

This generation is in dire dire trouble .
As i was reading through these posts
i realized that either most have forgotten or do not know
that EPI does not teach one must FIRST BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST at all .
Now he can then use truths but we have to understand
he has a whole different way of seeing things .
I am watching this entire thing .
There is a reason and a very good one that JOHN , EVEN CHRIST JESUS
had told them to not keep company with any who brings another gospel .
ITS so deceptive . because epi can bring in certain truths
can agree with certain truths and yet many do not know or remember
the man has long preached and long warned against
my continual reminders that one MUST FIRST BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
or its all in vain . Inclusivity is very slick .
Till epi repents of this other gospel , we must not enteratain anything he brings .
Rather keep correcting him till he do repent .
And if he wont , keep exposing .
The problem is todays christanity has been taught to simply suffer everyone .
But that is not what JESUS said
HE warned a church about suffering a false prophetess to teach and to seduce .
There is a reason why GOD said , later the SON said , and later the apostles
FILLED BY THE TRUE SPIRIT said and wrote down .
That is the ONLY pattern that works .

 

[PS95]

IJust a side note. Were you thinking I thought John MacArthur taught hyper grace? I actually have heard different of him from the beginning but am not familiar with his teachings directly.

Steve Brown's Key Life ministries definitely teaches license to sin. It is incredibly misleading. Yet you can hear him on Christian radio stations across the country.

Hi Wynona!
I am not terribly familiar with all of the terms. Is hyper grace what Behold is saying? No need to overcome sins or confess or repent if saved?

I don't think that you mentioned MacArthur- the next poster did. He does teach abt overcoming sin for sure. He is actually the pastor that helped me to see that many years ago.
I think you mentioned John Piper. I have only listened to Piper a few times, so that was my very point.. That these guys have thousands of messages, and that we should not assume that they don't teach about overcoming sins, unless we have listened to most of them.
A quick search on Piper and up came this-

Thirteen Practical Steps to Kill Sin

We are commanded to constantly kill the sin that remains in our lives. Here are thirteen tactical steps in the battle.

www.desiringgod.org

There are people who say that Paul taught a kind of hyper-grace. Does that mean Paul did? No Paul did not. Those people are not reading ALL that Paul wrote (or the rest of the scriptures which they must also twist.) I am speaking about Behold's teachings here.
My point was it would be treading on slandering someone to say that they taught something they do/did not. Agree? I was just saying to be careful.
If we listen to say.. 30 sermons by a pastor is it possible to conclude that they don't teach about overscoming sins? Yep. Same is true of Paul if we don't read all. shoul they bring it up in every sermon? No, or it would sound like we earn grace. Is there a risk that some people may conclude a magic prayer and done? Yes, but like I said, we could say the same of Paul if we cherry pick his words and dont heed the full counsel. I hope that made sense? That's all i was sayin!

Note my reply to Behold- I offered 2 Peter 1-11. It was ignored. We have the POWER to overcome sins, and our lives are a journey as we grow in those things that Peter listed. Do I stress over that or think I am not saved? No. I fall, I get picked up, I Praise His name. I grow a little I praise His name. Either way I praise His name. I'm grateful that He has given me the power to grow more & more. Never once would I conclude that I am earning a thing. The Lord helps me to grow more like Him. It's not of me, but of His spirit. Abiding in his love..

 

[Johann]

Hi Wynona!
I am not terribly familiar with all of the terms. Is hyper grace what Behold is saying? No need to overcome sins or confess or repent if saved?

I don't think that you mentioned MacArthur- the next poster did. He does teach abt overcoming sin for sure. He is actually the pastor that helped me to see that many years ago.
I think you mentioned John Piper. I have only listened to Piper a few times, so that was my very point.. That these guys have thousands of messages, and that we should not assume that they don't teach about overcoming sins, unless we have listened to most of them.
A quick search on Piper and up came this-

Thirteen Practical Steps to Kill Sin

We are commanded to constantly kill the sin that remains in our lives. Here are thirteen tactical steps in the battle.

www.desiringgod.org

There are people who say that Paul taught a kind of hyper-grace. Does that mean Paul did? No Paul did not. Those people are not reading ALL that Paul wrote (or the rest of the scriptures which they must also twist.) I am speaking about Behold's teachings here.
My point was it would be treading on slandering someone to say that they taught something they do/did not. Agree? I was just saying to be careful.
If we listen to say.. 30 sermons by a pastor is it possible to conclude that they don't teach about overscoming sins? Yep. Same is true of Paul if we don't read all. shoul they bring it up in every sermon? No, or it would sound like we earn grace. Is there a risk that some people may conclude a magic prayer and done? Yes, but like I said, we could say the same of Paul if we cherry pick his words and dont heed the full counsel. I hope that made sense? That's all i was sayin!

Note my reply to Behold- I offered 2 Peter 1-11. It was ignored. We have the POWER to overcome sins, and our lives are a journey as we grow in those things that Peter listed. Do I stress over that or think I am not saved? No. I fall, I get picked up, I Praise His name. I grow a little I praise His name. Either way I praise His name. I'm grateful that He has given me the power to grow more & more. Never once would I conclude that I am earning a thing. The Lord helps me to grow more like Him. It's not of me, but of His spirit. Abiding in his love..

You have your head screwed on right and your heart in the right place and in my mother tongue I would call you "Yster!" [Iron]
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

Scripture: 1 Thessalonians 5:23
"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Explanation of Instantaneous and Progressive Sanctification:
Grammar and Syntax Analysis:

"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely;"

Verb Phrase (VP): "sanctify you completely" – The verb "sanctify" is in the aorist subjunctive, suggesting a wish or prayer for a completed action, indicating the potential for instantaneous sanctification.
Adverb "completely": Modifies the verb "sanctify," emphasizing the thoroughness and completeness of the action.
"and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Conjunction "and": Connects two related prayers or wishes, indicating a sequence or continuation.
Verb Phrase (VP): "be preserved blameless" – The verb "preserved" is in the aorist subjunctive, similar to "sanctify," suggesting a desire for a continued state of being blameless.
Adjective "blameless": Describes the state of the spirit, soul, and body, indicating an ongoing process of being kept pure.
Morphological Analysis:

"Sanctify" (ἁγιάσαι): This verb is derived from the Greek root "ἁγιάζω" (hagiazō), meaning "to make holy" or "to consecrate." The use of the aorist tense here points to a specific moment of action, aligning with the concept of instantaneous sanctification.

"Completely" (ὁλοτελεῖς): This adverb is formed from the Greek words "ὅλος" (holos) meaning "whole" and "τελέω" (teleō) meaning "to complete" or "to perfect." It underscores the totality of the sanctification process, implying that sanctification, while potentially instantaneous, is also thorough and all-encompassing.

"Preserved" (τηρηθείη): This verb, from the Greek root "τηρέω" (tēreō), means "to keep" or "to guard." Its aorist subjunctive form indicates a continuous action that is wished for, supporting the idea of progressive sanctification.

"Blameless" (ἀμέμπτως): An adjective from the Greek root "ἄμεμπτος" (amemptos), meaning "blameless" or "without fault." This term suggests an ongoing state of purity and righteousness that needs to be maintained, aligning with progressive sanctification.

Synthesis:
The verse from 1 Thessalonians 5:23 supports both instantaneous and progressive sanctification through its grammatical structure and morphological details. The prayer for God to "sanctify you completely" in the aorist subjunctive form suggests a one-time, comprehensive action (instantaneous sanctification).
Simultaneously, the desire for believers to "be preserved blameless" implies a continuous, ongoing process of maintaining this state of sanctity (progressive sanctification).
The use of the conjunction "and" ties these concepts together, indicating that both aspects are part of the sanctification experience: a decisive act of being made holy, followed by an ongoing process of living out that holiness in every aspect of one's being.

The concept of Theosis, also known as divinization or deification, is rooted in the belief that humans can become partakers of the divine nature through grace. This idea is primarily found in Eastern Orthodox theology but also has biblical foundations. Here are some key scriptures and theological points where the concept of Theosis can be identified:

Key Scriptures:
2 Peter 1:4:

Scripture: "By which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
Explanation: This verse directly supports the idea of Theosis, indicating that believers can partake in the divine nature, transcending human limitations through God's promises.
John 17:22-23:

Scripture: "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."
Explanation: Jesus prays for believers to be united with Him and the Father, reflecting the intimate union that characterizes Theosis.
1 John 3:2:

Scripture: "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."
Explanation: This passage suggests a future transformation into the likeness of Christ, aligning with the concept of becoming more divine in nature.
Romans 8:29-30:

Scripture: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
Explanation: This highlights the process of believers being conformed to the image of Christ, culminating in glorification, which resonates with the idea of Theosis.
Theological Context:
Early Church Fathers:

Athanasius of Alexandria: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God" (De Incarnatione, 54:3). I mean--really @Hepzibah! This statement encapsulates the transformative aspect of Theosis, where humanity is elevated through the incarnation of Christ.
Irenaeus of Lyons: "If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods" (Adversus Haereses, Book 5, Preface). Irenaeus emphasizes the participatory nature of salvation in Theosis.
Eastern Orthodox Theology:

I mean-REALLY @Hepzibah?!!! Hope this is NOT how YOU believe!

Gregory of Nazianzus: Stresses the transformative union with God through Christ, where human nature is divinized.
Maximus the Confessor: Elaborates on the synergy between divine grace and human will in the process of Theosis, emphasizing that humans are called to grow in the likeness of God.
Summary:
Theosis is deeply embedded in Christian theology and scripture, highlighting the transformative journey of believers into the divine nature. Key scriptures such as 2 Peter 1:4, John 17:22-23, 1 John 3:2, and Romans 8:29-30 provide a biblical foundation for this concept. The theological reflections of early Church Fathers like Athanasius and Irenaeus further elucidate the belief that through Christ, humanity is invited to partake in the divine nature, achieving a profound union with God.

I don't hold to the ECF--

So let's begin from here @Hepzibah

Amen brother .....I agree with you in cautioning about the early church fathers writings. Paul said that after he departed wolves would come in to the church, not sparing the flock. It doesn't take long for the flesh to get hold of the things of God and cause them to go off track and miss the mark. While he was alive Paul (and I assume other apostles) were constantly having to fight against essentially the flesh making inroads in the church, but after they were gone, things would have begun to go awry, since we have Paul's prophecy on that.

Think we can see this with the use of extra-biblical terminology.....such as theosis and divinization.....using man's words to FORM and FORMALIZE a doctrine, rather than the spirit words of scripture. "Form" as in the setting of concepts in the wet cement of the carnal mind rather than holding truths in spirit. The words we use matter, because words are what make up the thoughts and understanding of our mind.

Jesus said "ye shall be like the angels"......and it says elsewhere that "it doth not yet appear what we shall be." So it seems that some things await us after physical death, or maybe we can think of it as the permanent state of some things await us after death.....though we may sometimes "taste the powers of the world to come". And we will never be God but as we are called the bride/wife of Christ, we'll always be subject to Him even as we carry His delegated authority....

Isa 43:10-11

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

I think great care is needed for these things, that we understand and rightly divide everything. We want to take ground and grow in understanding but also be aware that it's a minefield up ahead and so we need to be guided by the Lord. Anyway, just my thoughts on this.

 

[Johann]

Amen brother .....I agree with you in cautioning about the early church fathers writings. Paul said that after he departed wolves would come in to the church, not sparing the flock. It doesn't take long for the flesh to get hold of the things of God and cause them to go off track and miss the mark. While he was alive Paul (and I assume other apostles) were constantly having to fight against essentially the flesh making inroads in the church, but after they were gone, things would have begun to go awry, since we have Paul's prophecy on that.

Think we can see this with the use of extra-biblical terminology.....such as theosis and divinization.....using man's words to FORM and FORMALIZE a doctrine, rather than the spirit words of scripture. "Form" as in the setting of concepts in the wet cement of the carnal mind rather than holding truths in spirit. The words we use matter, because words are what make up the thoughts and understanding of our mind.

Jesus said "ye shall be like the angels"......and it says elsewhere that "it doth not yet appear what we shall be." So it seems that some things await us after physical death, or maybe we can think of it as the permanent state of some things await us after death.....though we may sometimes "taste the powers of the world to come". And we will never be God but as we are called the bride/wife of Christ, we'll always be subject to Him even as we carry His delegated authority....

Isa 43:10-11

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

I think great care is needed for these things, that we understand and rightly divide everything. We want to take ground and grow in understanding but also be aware that it's a minefield up ahead and so we need to be guided by the Lord. Anyway, just my thoughts on this.

Correct-this is a minefield with ditches everywhere and some here have "arrived" boggles my three pound brain and I'm off to gym, a heavy arm and shoulder workout [for what lies ahead]
J.

 

[Hepzibah]

We can find anything we want to in the early teachings. It requires great discernment but they are extremely helpful, the ones that is, that were faithful in carrying forward the spoken teachings of the apostles and their disciples. They spoke the same language for a start and understood the culture.

There were a handful that were considered theologians. Not all were and some had weird beliefs, and yes some were wolves.

The ones that carried forward the spiritual teachings are most useful but one must be careful. Error was already in the church at the outset. It is an error to overlook them though and bring in new doctrines.

 

[Johann]

We can find anything we want to in the early teachings. It requires great discernment but they are extremely helpful, the ones that is, that were faithful in carrying forward the spoken teachings of the apostles and their disciples. They spoke the same language for a start and understood the culture.

There were a handful that were considered theologians. Not all were and some had weird beliefs, and yes some were wolves.

The ones that carried forward the spiritual teachings are most useful but one must be careful. Error was already in the church at the outset. It is an error to overlook them though and bring in new doctrines.

While I appreciate your honesty and straightforwardness can you name ONE church father that had it altogether correct?

 

[Hepzibah]

@Johann no not one. God has made it this way as we are not to function as lone wolves. So He gives to each of us a part of the spiritual landscape. I don't mean basics. Even Paul did not know if all and said if it was his own tboughts.

We also grow in our understanding over time.

 

[Hepzibah]

Having said that, l am assuming that teachers have reached that upper level of purity and maturity.

 

[PS95]

You have your head screwed on right and your heart in the right place and in my mother tongue I would call you "Yster!" [Iron]
J.

haha! and you as well, my brother. Remember iron sharpens iron. We are one body. I would love to see more of thaton these boards.
Too many times the bickering is here futile, over non-salvational topics where we should extend gracious brotherly liberties.

THERE ARE those on here who are here for ONE purpose which is to draw disciples away from the cross of Christ and to themselves. Not many realize how wicked those false teachings which they continually hide with smooth words.
They use terms and phrases that we use but they have a very different meaning, and they will not tell you that. Deceitful workers indeed. It exists in real time and seems they are allowed to roam freely on these boards including those that say "Christians only" I would like to know why. How does this forum define a Christian anyway?

 

[Johann]

haha! and you as well, my brother. Remember iron sharpens iron. We are one body. I would love to see more of thaton these boards.
Too many times the bickering is here futile, over non-salvational topics where we should extend gracious brotherly liberties.

THERE ARE those on here who are here for ONE purpose which is to draw disciples away from the cross of Christ and to themselves. Not many realize how wicked those false teachings which they continually hide with smooth words.
They use terms and phrases that we use but they have a very different meaning, and they will not tell you that. Deceitful workers indeed. It exists in real time and seems they are allowed to roam freely on these boards including those that say "Christians only" I would like to know why. How does this forum define a Christian anyway?

Feisty-and concur with every word and a good question-how to define a "Christian" online who we cannot see?

Let's see--

Criteria for Defining a Christian
Confession of Faith in Jesus Christ:

Romans 10:9-10: "If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."
A Christian is someone who openly confesses Jesus as Lord and believes in His resurrection.
Evidence of the Fruit of the Spirit:

Galatians 5:22-23: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."
A Christian demonstrates the fruit of the Spirit in their interactions and behavior, even online.
Adherence to Jesus’ Teachings:

John 8:31-32: "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, 'If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.'"
A Christian follows the teachings of Jesus, reflecting them in their conversations and decisions.
Love for Others:

John 13:34-35: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
A Christian exhibits love towards others, showcasing it through kindness, compassion, and respect in their interactions.
Confession of Sin and Repentance:

1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
A Christian acknowledges their sins and seeks repentance, showing humility and a desire for righteousness.
Obedience to God’s Commandments:

1 John 2:3-6: "We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."
A Christian strives to obey God's commandments, reflecting their faith through their actions.
Application in Online Context
Consistency in Profession of Faith:

Look for consistent statements of faith in Jesus Christ and expressions of belief in His resurrection and Lordship.
Demonstration of Christian Virtues:

Observe the individual’s online behavior for signs of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
Engagement in Biblical Discussions:

Engage in conversations about biblical teachings and see if the individual’s responses align with the teachings of Jesus.
Expressions of Love and Compassion:

Notice how the person treats others online, particularly in challenging or contentious situations. True Christians will seek to love and respect others, even in disagreement.
Repentance and Forgiveness:

Pay attention to how the person deals with their own mistakes or sins, looking for a pattern of confession, repentance, and seeking forgiveness.
By using these scriptural guidelines, we can discern the authenticity of someone’s Christian faith, even in an online setting where physical presence and actions are not observable.

@PS95 I think you would agree on this and this can "preach" a sermon!

 

[PS95]

Feisty-and concur with every word and a good question-how to define a "Christian" online who we cannot see?

Let's see--

Criteria for Defining a Christian
Confession of Faith in Jesus Christ:

Romans 10:9-10: "If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."
A Christian is someone who openly confesses Jesus as Lord and believes in His resurrection.
Evidence of the Fruit of the Spirit:

Galatians 5:22-23: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."
A Christian demonstrates the fruit of the Spirit in their interactions and behavior, even online.
Adherence to Jesus’ Teachings:

John 8:31-32: "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, 'If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.'"
A Christian follows the teachings of Jesus, reflecting them in their conversations and decisions.
Love for Others:

John 13:34-35: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
A Christian exhibits love towards others, showcasing it through kindness, compassion, and respect in their interactions.
Confession of Sin and Repentance:

1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
A Christian acknowledges their sins and seeks repentance, showing humility and a desire for righteousness.
Obedience to God’s Commandments:

1 John 2:3-6: "We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."
A Christian strives to obey God's commandments, reflecting their faith through their actions.
Application in Online Context
Consistency in Profession of Faith:

Look for consistent statements of faith in Jesus Christ and expressions of belief in His resurrection and Lordship.
Demonstration of Christian Virtues:

Observe the individual’s online behavior for signs of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
Engagement in Biblical Discussions:

Engage in conversations about biblical teachings and see if the individual’s responses align with the teachings of Jesus.
Expressions of Love and Compassion:

Notice how the person treats others online, particularly in challenging or contentious situations. True Christians will seek to love and respect others, even in disagreement.
Repentance and Forgiveness:

Pay attention to how the person deals with their own mistakes or sins, looking for a pattern of confession, repentance, and seeking forgiveness.
By using these scriptural guidelines, we can discern the authenticity of someone’s Christian faith, even in an online setting where physical presence and actions are not observable.

@PS95 I think you would agree on this and this can "preach" a sermon!

I agree with that. I also fall short at times. When it comes to certain deceivers I lose my cool. Guess who?
I see them going after Christians on these boards to convert them, confuse them, divide. They even admitted once to counting their time. I KNOW what they are doing here and what they teach. Many do not. That angers me. They don't call it deceit for nothing. They call Christians, antichrists. Will they tell you that on here? Of course not, but that's the reason they are here to convert you to themselves. false teachers, false prophets with heavy rules of man, plus-- Jesus only died for sin of Adam, you can not belong to Christ, you are not in the new covenant, you can not be born again, you are not a part of His body ETC..................
Tell me what Jesus would say to them?
They have their own discussion board- let them go there. Christians are not allowed. The majority of it they won't even allow to be read.

JWTalk - Jehovah's Witnesses Online Community

JWTalk is the only REAL online community of loyal Jehovah's Witnesses on the internet.

jwtalk.net

So why are they allowed here? I ca not particpate much with believers on here due to constantly having to watch who they are going after.. which is always the ones who don't know who they are or what they teach. They shun us who do know their teachings and expose them.