OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[face2face]

@Phoneman777 (your words)

"obedience is the outward evidence of inward conversion is because they lack the outward evidence that proves they've been inwardly converted"

This is interesting as there are 4 different types of conversions in the Scripture:

1. National Conversion (Niniveh and Future Israel are good examples)
2. Temporary Conversion (1 Timothy 2:18 - be interesting to hear what OSAS believers make of these)
3. True Conversion (Saul to Paul in Acts 9)
4. Repeated Conversion (Peter is a great example) Luke 22:23 again how to OSAS believers explain Peter before his denial?

How does the OSAS believer speak to all four? If they believe, once saved always saved?

They must be left behind in the conversation as the work of salvation is so nuanced, it can never be a one size fits all.

F2F

 

[ScottA]

In context Scott!

1 Thess 4:1 Finally then, brothers and sisters, we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received instruction from us about how you must live and please God (as you are in fact living) that you do so more and more.

The following instruction would be pointless if Paul believed in OSAS.

4:2 For you know what commands we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 4:3 For this is God’s will: that you become holy, that you keep away from sexual immorality, 4:4 that each of you know how to possess his own body in holiness and honor, 4:5 not in lustful passion like the Gentiles who do not know God. 1 Th 4:2–5.

I could go on, but you can clearly see (red text) that there are obligations for salvation (and warnings), expectation of performance in the things of God.

As I'm constantly having to do with believers like you and Rita etc is show the complete picture and not cherry pick confidence verses which confirm your bias.

4:7 For God did not call us to impurity but in holiness. 1 Th 4:7.

Its a high calling, many of which will not endure in faith till the end

4:8 Consequently the one who rejects this is not rejecting human authority but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you. 1 Th 4:8.

What's interesting about chapter 4 is its primarily made up of warnings which an OSAS advocate would dispel as meaningless, as salvation in their minds is locked in without question.

OSAS does not account for a persons walk...its an arrogant belief in the present, which is ill-informed of the future.

It's foolishness...man made teaching.

F2F

You yourself are out of context.

Paul preached and taught to those on the cusp of the good news of the gospel who were unsure just how things worked, and who needed counselling, as many still do. Meaning the context was primarily regarding the unsaved still wrestling between worlds--as many still are. But that wrestling is only in context for those who wrestle, and those who still place a greater emphasis on the old man--as many still do. Which is the context of the broad way.

To the contrary, the narrow way context, is one of "leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment"..."And this we will do if God permits." --And He does.

 

[face2face]

You yourself are out of context.

Paul preached and taught to those on the cusp of the good news of the gospel who were unsure just how things worked, and who needed counselling, as many still do.

That is correct and by this you imply those warnings no longer apply to 'your" saved?

Meaning the context was primarily regarding the unsaved still wrestling between worlds--as many still are. But that wrestling is only in context for those who wrestle, and those who still place a greater emphasis on the old man--as many still do. Which is the context of the broad way.

So again your implication here is "your" saved no longer wrestle?

4:9 Now on the topic of brotherly love you have no need for anyone to write you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another. 4:10 And indeed you are practicing it toward all the brothers and sisters in all of Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers and sisters, to do so more and more, 4:11 to aspire to lead a quiet life, to attend to your own business, and to work with your hands, as we commanded you. 4:12 In this way you will live a decent life before outsiders and not be in need 1 Th 4:9–12.

The commendation applied to converted believers and to imply these brothers and sisters are in an unsaved partially converted state is garbage!

All believers from the most faithful to the faithless are asked to "to do so more and more", which speaks to "working out your salvation with trembling and fear", something which never ceases for the true disciple in Christ!

To the contrary, the narrow way context, is one of "leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment"..."And this we will do if God permits." --And He does.

Cherry picking again and not providing the whole story I see.

6:4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 6:5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, 6:6 and then have committed apostasy, to renew them again to repentance, since they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again and holding him up to contempt. Heb 6:4–6.

Here begs the question for OSAS believers - how is this possible, if you have preached OSAS doctrine? Who deems a person saved? Do you Scott? Are you the authority? Clearly you mishandle the Word of God so any trust or confidence in your judgements will only result in failure.

So here is the real picture for those reading this. How does a believer like Scott who holds the apostacy, teach OSAS? Galatians 1 calls such believers as being accursed! Those who would pervert the true Gospel of God by making it their own! What if a believer like Scott is yet to know the elementary principles of Christ?....how can he teach OSAS, or any type of salvation for that matter?

The ignorance and arrogance must be maintained for any show of humility will result in the dismantling of OSAS doctrine.

Enlightened...partakers of the HS...tasted the good work of God...AND miracles!...and yet not saved!

Again, the OSAS cannot provide the complete picture and rather than leave the Judgement to God, they would robbed Him by their own selfish desires.

Twice now Scott has grabbed a quote, cherry picked for his own confirmation bias and twice he has come up short.

F2F

 

[Phoneman777]

What Phonyman does not understand is Gods people do obey.

The obedient don't need a OSAS License to Sin any more than a groom need to demand from his bride a "License to Cheat".

It’s not a requirement

Yes, it is. It's called "reasonable service" - the OSAS crowd thinks it's "optional gesture".

it is a new life, a new purpose. A new nature. This new nature does not live in sin because it has been born of God.

If the OSAS License to Sin crowed really believed that, they wouldn't need a OSAS License to Sin.

See what Phoneman does not understand, Like paul.. We are confident that he who began a good work WILL complete it until the day of christ.

Absolutely, but He's neither begun or will complete that in the lives of OSAS presumptuous sinners.

He does not believe this, He does not understand us, thats why he is so angry at us. He yells we think we have a license, when it is HE who is excusing his own sin.

Shame on him.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Obedience is the NON-NEGOTIABLE, UNAVOIDABLE resulting behavioral evidence of a person who accepts Jesus in his heart.

The reason the OSAS crowd needs a OSAS License to Sin is to (vainly) excuse their lack of this evidence.

 

[face2face]

For everyone else.

6:7 For the ground that has soaked up the rain that frequently falls on it and yields useful vegetation for those who tend it receives a blessing from God. 6:8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is useless and about to be cursed; its fate is to be burned. Heb 6:7–8.

No person alive can judge who is a blessing from God and who is to be cursed - the fate of each resides with God Himself.

There is no BUT in OSAS!

Imagine Scott at the judgement is shown to have produced thorns and thistles in his life and yet he adamantly believed he was Saved.

What will be his response?

But Lord?

F2F

 

[JLB]

You say your earning then in the same paragraph say YOU must DO something to stay saved

I would reread your words and maybe you will see what I see

John is speaking about producing fruit. Not contradicting himself and saying we do not have eternal life we have conditional Life by what we do

John quoted Jesus Christ.


These are His words, not mine --

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


For those who follow Jesus Christ and His teachings, here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ -


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

 

[face2face]

John quoted Jesus Christ.


These are His words, not mine --

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


For those who follow Jesus Christ and His teachings, here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ -


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

There is no doubt whatsoever if a believer holds the true Gospel and is found to be "in Christ" then God is just to save them, but its God doing the judging and saving and not some man-made doctrine.

Do all Christians abide in him?

The answer is clearly no, for some think he is this, and others think he is that, and confusion abounds in the Christian mind. This is why Paul's letter to the Galatian believers is so important - it shows the importance of a true Gospel and the Judgement against those who would misrepresent it for their own benefit.

F2F

 

[face2face]

You have to think you will not be judged in your unbelief

Is this the premise of you going to the judgement?

 

[ScottA]

That is correct and by this you imply those warnings no longer apply to 'your" saved?

Do the healthy need a doctor? Is this really so hard to understand. Have you learned nothing?

 

[ScottA]

So again your implication here is "your" saved no longer wrestle?

4:9 Now on the topic of brotherly love you have no need for anyone to write you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another. 4:10 And indeed you are practicing it toward all the brothers and sisters in all of Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers and sisters, to do so more and more, 4:11 to aspire to lead a quiet life, to attend to your own business, and to work with your hands, as we commanded you. 4:12 In this way you will live a decent life before outsiders and not be in need 1 Th 4:9–12.

The commendation applied to converted believers and to imply these brothers and sisters are in an unsaved partially converted state is garbage!

All believers from the most faithful to the faithless are asked to "to do so more and more", which speaks to "working out your salvation with trembling and fear", something which never ceases for the true disciple in Christ!

No, that all describes the process of working toward salvation, which many do. But that is not the case with those of whom "old things have passed away, behold all things have become new." These do not wrestle in the same way. The one wrestles with his present, the other with his past as the Lord has seen fit to have some remain in the world carrying the marks of sin (as Christ also did) and in His greater service even after they have passed from death to life. How is this not clear to you?

 

[face2face]

Do the the healthy need a doctor? Is this really so hard to understand. Have you learned nothing?

It is not I that needs to learn Scott, that much is plainly clear. Your confidence in OSAS is misplaced and your poor use of Hebrews 6, well its no wonder you have not responded to that post!

I'm not a Baptist but John L Dagg get its clearly:

They who understand the doctrine of perseverance to imply that God’s people will obtain the crown without the struggle [against sin], totally mistake the matter. The doctrine is, that God’s people will persevere in the struggle; and to suppose that they will obtain the crown without doing so, is to contradict the doctrine. It is a wretched and fatal perversion of the doctrine, if men conclude that, having been once converted, they will be saved, whatever may be their course of life. Anthony A. Hoekema, Saved by Grace (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1994), 246.

Romans 2:7 if you didnt catch the inference!

To those who by persistence (perseverance) in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Why is it not once you have spoken to these key verses?

F2F

 

[ScottA]

Cherry picking again and not providing the whole story I see.

6:4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 6:5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, 6:6 and then have committed apostasy, to renew them again to repentance, since they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again and holding him up to contempt. Heb 6:4–6.

Here begs the question for OSAS believers - how is this possible, if you have preached OSAS doctrine? Who deems a person saved? Do you Scott? Are you the authority? Clearly you mishandle the Word of God so any trust or confidence in your judgements will only result in failure.

So here is the real picture for those reading this. How does a believer like Scott who holds the apostacy, teach OSAS? Galatians 1 calls such believers as being accursed! Those who would pervert the true Gospel of God by making it their own! What if a believer like Scott is yet to know the elementary principles of Christ?....how can he teach OSAS, or any type of salvation for that matter?

The ignorance and arrogance must be maintained for any show of humility will result in the dismantling of OSAS doctrine.

Enlightened...partakers of the HS...tasted the good work of God...AND miracles!...and yet not saved!

Again, the OSAS cannot provide the complete picture and rather than leave the Judgement to God, they would robbed Him by their own selfish desires.

Twice now Scott has grabbed a quote, cherry picked for his own confirmation bias and twice he has come up short.

You are reading it wrong (Heb 6).

Paul both established the proper time to press on for those who are saved, while also warning those who are not saved not to press on before the elementary principles of Christ are fulfilled in them. Which many have stumbled over--intentionally, until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. But now you know what was before restrained.

 

[face2face]

No, that all describes the process of working toward salvation, which many do.

Fail again!

All believers are working toward salvation! Even the Apostle Paul said he had "finished the fight"...do you not know what that means? Christ himself spoke of this in Luke 12:50 "I have a terrible baptism of suffering ahead of me, and I am under a heavy burden until it is accomplished" - the burden was fighting the good fight everyday until the final moment of victory.

Your belief's are perverse Scott, like really perverse.

But that is not the case with those of whom "old things have passed away, behold all things have become new."

Correct, and God through Christ has given us a ministry to which we endeavor to live, though imperfectly.

5:18 And all these things are from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation.
2 Co 5:18.

Now its with sadness you teach salvation only, as though this is the main focus of that ministry. This again reveals to me your error. If you knew what the main focus of the Gospel was you wouldn't be teaching lies, as you do.

These do not wrestle in the same way.

Define wrestle?
Both Paul and Christ wrestled in the flesh their entire walk - one was perfect the other not.

The one wrestles with his present, the other with his past as the Lord has seen fit to have some remain in the world carrying the marks of sin (as Christ also did) and in His greater service even after they have passed from death to life. How is this not clear to you?

He is why you struggle to understand.

And you will be hated by everyone because of my name. But the one who endures to the end will be saved Mt 10:22.

But Lord are we all not saved now?

8:31 Then Jesus said to those Judeans who had believed him, “If you continue to follow my teaching, you are really my disciples 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. Jn 8:31–32.

But Lord are we not free now!

“I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in me—and I in him—bears much fruit, because apart from me you can accomplish nothing. Jn 15:5.

But Lord how will I know If I am to remain in the vine?

Stay alert, stand firm in the faith, show courage, be strong 1 Co 16:13.

But Paul, I am already saved so why stand firm, show courage and be strong?

For we have become partners with Christ, if in fact we hold our initial confidence firm until the end. Heb 3:13–14.

Why IF, if we are already saved?

Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. The devil (Adversary = Roman Authority) is about to have some of you thrown into prison so you may be tested, and you will experience suffering for ten days. Remain faithful even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown that is life itself Re 2:9–10.

But Lord, I have OSAS so it doesn't matter how I respond to suffering!

I dont mean to make a fool of you Scott, but your doctrine has a stench about it...like rotting flesh!

F2F

 

[ScottA]

Fail again!

All believers are working toward salvation! Even the Apostle Paul said he had "finished the fight"...do you not know what that means? Christ himself spoke of this in Luke 12:50 "I have a terrible baptism of suffering ahead of me, and I am under a heavy burden until it is accomplished" - the burden was fighting the good fight everyday until the final moment of victory.

Your belief's are perverse Scott, like really perverse.

Correct, and God through Christ has given us a ministry to which we endeavor to live, though imperfectly.

5:18 And all these things are from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation.
2 Co 5:18.

Now its with sadness you teach salvation only, as though this is the main focus of that ministry. This again reveals to me your error. If you knew what the main focus of the Gospel was you wouldn't be teaching lies, as you do.


Define wrestle?
Both Paul and Christ wrestled in the flesh their entire walk - one was perfect the other not.

He is why you struggle to understand.

And you will be hated by everyone because of my name. But the one who endures to the end will be saved Mt 10:22.

But Lord are we all not saved now?

8:31 Then Jesus said to those Judeans who had believed him, “If you continue to follow my teaching, you are really my disciples 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. Jn 8:31–32.

But Lord are we not free now!

“I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in me—and I in him—bears much fruit, because apart from me you can accomplish nothing. Jn 15:5.

But Lord how will I know If I am to remain in the vine?

Stay alert, stand firm in the faith, show courage, be strong 1 Co 16:13.

But Paul, I am already saved so why stand firm, show courage and be strong?

For we have become partners with Christ, if in fact we hold our initial confidence firm until the end. Heb 3:13–14.

Why IF, if we are already saved?

Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. The devil (Adversary = Roman Authority) is about to have some of you thrown into prison so you may be tested, and you will experience suffering for ten days. Remain faithful even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown that is life itself Re 2:9–10.

But Lord, I have OSAS so it doesn't matter how I respond to suffering!

I dont mean to make a fool of you Scott, but your doctrine has a stench about it...like rotting flesh!

F2F

You continue to wrestle not even knowing that the end is Christ. But I have told you enough. Now you have no excuse. So, let it be written.

 

[face2face]

You are reading it wrong (Heb 6).

According to Scott?

Paul both established the proper time to press on for those who are saved, while also warning those who are not saved not to press on before the elementary principles of Christ are fulfilled in them.

You are all over the place Scott! Babes not saved Mature Adults OSAS.

Which many have stumbled over--intentionally, until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. But now you know what was before restrained.

Much of the same nonsense.

Every principle of God as delivered by the testimony of the true Apostles is assisting all who believe into the Kingdom of God, starting with bades to mature adults - all are subject to failure and sin!

5:12 For though you should in fact be teachers by this time, you need someone to teach you the beginning elements of God’s utterances. You have gone back to needing milk, not solid food.

This is where you find yourself on this subject Scott - you need to be taught the truth concerning the probation period which is a believers life.

5:13 For everyone who lives on milk is inexperienced in the message of righteousness, because he is an infant. 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, whose perceptions are trained by practice to discern both good and evil. Heb 5:12–14.

For example, your teaching is evil, the only way you can come to a full understanding of this subject is to be taught the true principles of the atonement and how God reconciles man back to Himself, through water, fire and by the testing of the HS...until the end!

Because you are unable to speak about the trial through suffering you are not able to speak about the glory. It's as though you are a thief who wants to steel salvation for himself without understanding the work of God and His Judgements.

Its a teaching of pride on your part.

F2F

 

[face2face]

You continue to wrestle not even knowing that the end is Christ. But I have told you enough. Now you have no excuse. So, let it be written.

That list was a hard read for you Scott, I get it....was it the emphasis of "till the end?"

The end matters not to you because like a game show, you have locked salvation in!

Sad part is, you couldn't speak to one of those verses, not one!

I've shown you a true and balanced understanding of all the verses you have presented, so go back over the replies and see how much Scripture has fallen through your hands to the ground - and you say with confidence you have salvation?

Go away and learn what this means "In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence"

Show us this Spirit Scott! Get behind these words and understand why your Christ could pray till he was crying to his father to save him from death!

But Lord, why the tears...you are God (lol) you can save yourself (where have I heard that before!) You dont need to cry Lord, you're saved already!

OSAS in the trash!

F2F

 

[BlessedPeace]

You continue to wrestle not even knowing that the end is Christ. But I have told you enough. Now you have no excuse. So, let it be written.

They have ears but they do not hear. Eyes but they do not see.

But mouth a plenty to deny through the anonymous tunnel of the Net and while at a keyboard the Gospel of Christ.

Eternal Irrevocable Salvation is a license to Sin!

Of course it isn't. And God tells us why.

We see this. We know this to be true.

Oh,you're not a Sinner anymore? Do you Sin?

We know God has told us the answer there too. And we know this to be true.

Opponents of God. God's grace, God's gift. The Gospel of Eternal Life,Irrevocable Salvation.

Opponents.Opposers.
2 Corinthians 4:4
...In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[face2face]

You continue to wrestle not even knowing that the end is Christ.

Is this the extent of your wisdom...is this all you to offer?
The truth is actually found in John 12:48-49.
If you can speak to those words you do well.
F2F

 

[face2face]

They have ears but they do not hear. Eyes but they do not see.

But mouth a plenty to deny through the anonymous tunnel of the Net and while at a keyboard the Gospel of Christ.

Eternal Irrevocable Salvation is a license to Sin!

Of course it isn't. And God tells us why.

We see this. We know this to be true.

Oh,you're not a Sinner anymore? Do you Sin?

We know God has told us the answer there too. And we know this to be true.

Opponents of God. God's grace, God's gift. The Gospel of Eternal Life,Irrevocable Salvation.

Opponents.Opposers.
2 Corinthians 4:4
...In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

It's not your fault you have clung to this false teaching Blessed. The True Way is not yet known to you because those teachers slander it.. 2 Peter 2:2

For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, having known it, to turn back from the holy commandment that had been delivered to them 2 Pe 2:21.

What's disturbing about this is the Original Gospel was known and understood, but today, there are so many variants that verse 21 no longer applies. It's those who don't know the Way of Righteouness teaching OSAS having never known it.

Crazy!
F2F

 

[face2face]

Opponents of God. God's grace, God's gift. The Gospel of Eternal Life,Irrevocable Salvation.

We have been over this Blessed, its not a Gift if you believe its guaranteed! You think you have a claim on God as though He is a wholesaler and you want to place an order!

You should read Matthew 19:27 - 20:16

Am I (God) not permitted to do what I want with what belongs to me? Mt 20:15

You should also read 1 Chornicles 29:13-14 this will give you a good dose of perspective!

Those blessed with Salvation will know it is a gift for a faithfilled life and they will also know not everyone will receive it...even those who you might have thought were guaranteed it.

God owes no man anything, ever!

F2F