Leaders That Don't Support Good Works or Overcoming Sin
- Thread starter Wynona
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
PS95
Well-Known Member
You have utterly ignored the scripture I just gave you. WHY? doesnt fit in with your theology? You should reconsider that.
as for MacArthur- all I did was correct a mistaken opinion of his teachings abt 1 topic.
They thought perhaps he taught licentousness-- and you think he is teaching how to earn your salvation.
This is Hilarious.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Anyone can post random verses, and say.. "see there"?
You just did.
Did you notice that i posted to you, previously, detailed explanations in a few posts, and you could not even respond.
So, if you just want to post some verses, then just post some verses., and pretend you know what you are doing with them.
If thats your game....
However, What would be better for you, is to ask a question, regarding a verse, or an idea.
But posting a "cut and past", collage of verses???
That's a fail, including the next time you do it, @PS95
However, if you want to post a verse, and say.."what about this".. then that is a discussion, and we can have it.
np.
PS95
Well-Known Member
RANDOM? LOL I posted 12 verses in context and no, will not just post a verse like you ask. sorry- that leads to heresy.
PS95
Well-Known Member
I used to listen to him on the radio a very long time ago! He does a good job.
I don't always agree with everything, but no big deal to me. Who has everything perfectly? I dont.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Yes, "random verses".
See, you were trying to prove "Lordship Salvation", and you posted random verses, that didnt prove it, nor are they actually associated with it..
Now, instead go back to your (online site).... and go and (copy) 3 verses that you believe that prove "Lordship Salvation".., and cut and paste those, here.
Just cut and paste 3, which should be enough for you., and i'll reply to those verses, @PS95 .
Try that.
You know the saying-Eat the chicken, spit out the bones and I had his study bible in PDF format but now lost.
I don't see it online-what a pity!
God bless and shalom to you and family.
J.
Hi Lizbeth, what I am having trouble getting past, is that Mary is the mother of Christ, not the bride. Will give it more thought.
That is taking 'the day of Christ' to mean when He returns physically, whereas He had returned to the disciples after the Resurrection, breathing the Holy Spirit on them, and likewise, this is called the point in a believers life when with Pentecost, they really do enter into the new life in Christ. Previous to this was the training period, Purgation or the wilderness time. The early Quakers understood it this way too and they took a lot of their theology from the early church teachings. It is really taking things to a much deeper level.
Yes this lines up with what I have said, leaving off the addition you made which is meant to agree with your and the common interpretation. The idea is found in many scriptures, it is not just taking one verse out of context.
Again, it says perfected without your additions.
See there are many verses that do not have to be taken on the level you take them.
These things are for spiritual revelation and not for human reasoning and and adding to scripture which we are warned against. This is the way of cherry pickers, when the Bible must be taken as a whole, not a bunch of texts.
Last edited:
I don't believe @Lizbeth is cherry picking verses out of context and in a conversation taking the Bible as a whole is going to be difficult-I ask you a question and you answer me with Genesis to Revelation-a real task.
If you want to use the Hebrew and Greek we can do so-with Grammar and Morphology--and it is not spiritual REVELATION but ILLUMINATION-big difference.
J.
I am not saying that @Lizbeth herself is cherry picking Johann.
I see a theme running through all of scripture which is not gradual sanctification.
Yes agreed, spiritual illumination.
Glad you understand but don't agree re sanctification-sanctification is both instantaneous and progressive.
Key Scriptures
1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 (KJV)
"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor."
Romans 6:19-22 (KJV)
"I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."
John 17:17 (KJV)
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
Analysis
1 Thessalonians 4:3-4
1 Thessalonians 4:3 (Greek)
ἔστιν γὰρ τοῦτο θέλημα τοῦ Θεοῦ, ὁ ἁγιασμὸς ὑμῶν, ἀπέχεσθαι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ τῆς πορνείας
ἔστιν (estin): Verb, present indicative active, 3rd person singular, "is."
γὰρ (gar): Conjunction, "for."
τοῦτο (touto): Demonstrative pronoun, nominative singular neuter, "this."
θέλημα (thelēma): Noun, nominative singular neuter, "will."
τοῦ Θεοῦ (tou Theou): Noun, genitive singular masculine, "of God."
ὁ ἁγιασμὸς (ho hagiasmos): Noun, nominative singular masculine, "sanctification."
ὑμῶν (humōn): Pronoun, genitive plural, "your."
ἀπέχεσθαι (apechesthai): Verb, present middle infinitive, "to abstain."
ὑμᾶς (humas): Pronoun, accusative plural, "you."
ἀπὸ τῆς πορνείας (apo tēs porneias): Prepositional phrase, "from fornication."
1 Thessalonians 4:4 (Greek)
εἰδέναι ἕκαστον ὑμῶν τὸ ἑαυτοῦ σκεῦος κτᾶσθαι ἐν ἁγιασμῷ καὶ τιμῇ
εἰδέναι (eidenai): Verb, perfect active infinitive, "to know."
ἕκαστον (hekaston): Pronoun, accusative singular masculine, "each one."
ὑμῶν (humōn): Pronoun, genitive plural, "of you."
τὸ ἑαυτοῦ σκεῦος (to heautou skeuos): Noun, accusative singular neuter, "his own vessel."
κτᾶσθαι (ktasthai): Verb, present middle infinitive, "to possess."
ἐν ἁγιασμῷ καὶ τιμῇ (en hagiasmō kai timē): Prepositional phrase, "in sanctification and honor."
Romans 6:19-22
Romans 6:19 (Greek)
Ἀνθρώπινον λέγω διὰ τὴν ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς ὑμῶν· ὥσπερ γὰρ παρεστήσατε τὰ μέλη ὑμῶν δοῦλα τῇ ἀκαθαρσίᾳ καὶ τῇ ἀνομίᾳ εἰς τὴν ἀνομίαν, οὕτως νῦν παραστήσατε τὰ μέλη ὑμῶν δοῦλα τῇ δικαιοσύνῃ εἰς ἁγιασμόν
Ἀνθρώπινον (Anthrōpinon): Adjective, accusative singular neuter, "human."
λέγω (legō): Verb, present indicative active, 1st person singular, "I speak."
διὰ τὴν ἀσθένειαν (dia tēn astheneian): Prepositional phrase, "because of the weakness."
τῆς σαρκὸς (tēs sarkos): Noun, genitive singular feminine, "of the flesh."
ὑμῶν (humōn): Pronoun, genitive plural, "your."
ὥσπερ γὰρ (hōsper gar): Conjunction, "for as."
παρεστήσατε (parestēsate): Verb, aorist indicative active, 2nd person plural, "you presented."
τὰ μέλη ὑμῶν (ta melē humōn): Noun phrase, accusative plural neuter, "your members."
δοῦλα (doula): Adjective, accusative plural neuter, "slaves."
τῇ ἀκαθαρσίᾳ καὶ τῇ ἀνομίᾳ (tē akatharsia kai tē anomia): Dative phrase, "to impurity and to lawlessness."
εἰς τὴν ἀνομίαν (eis tēn anomian): Prepositional phrase, "resulting in further lawlessness."
οὕτως νῦν (houtōs nun): Adverbial phrase, "so now."
παραστήσατε (parastēsate): Verb, aorist imperative active, 2nd person plural, "present."
τὰ μέλη ὑμῶν (ta melē humōn): Noun phrase, accusative plural neuter, "your members."
δοῦλα τῇ δικαιοσύνῃ (doula tē dikaiosynē): Adjective and noun, dative singular feminine, "slaves to righteousness."
εἰς ἁγιασμόν (eis hagiasmon): Prepositional phrase, "resulting in sanctification."
John 17:17
John 17:17 (Greek)
ἁγίασον αὐτοὺς ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ· ὁ λόγος ὁ σὸς ἀλήθειά ἐστιν
ἁγίασον (hagiason): Verb, aorist imperative active, 2nd person singular of ἁγιάζω (hagiazō), "Sanctify."
αὐτοὺς (autous): Pronoun, accusative plural masculine, "them."
ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ (en tē alētheia): Prepositional phrase, "in the truth."
ὁ λόγος ὁ σὸς (ho logos ho sos): Noun phrase, nominative singular masculine, "Your word."
ἀλήθειά ἐστιν (alētheia estin): Predicate nominative, "is truth."
Summary of Sanctification Process
Divine Will and Human Effort (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4)
God's will for believers is their sanctification, specifically abstaining from sin such as fornication (1 Thessalonians 4:3).
Believers are called to control their bodies in sanctification and honor (1 Thessalonians 4:4).
Transformation and Holiness (Romans 6:19-22)
Believers once offered their bodies to impurity and lawlessness, but now they are to offer themselves as slaves to righteousness, leading to sanctification (Romans 6:19).
The result of sanctification is holiness and eternal life (Romans 6:22).
Sanctification through Truth (John 17:17)
Jesus prays for believers to be sanctified by the truth, which is God's word (John 17:17).
Theological Insights
Sanctification is both a divine act and a human responsibility, involving separation from sin and dedication to God.
It is an ongoing process that begins.
NT HOLINESS / SANCTIFICATION
The NT asserts that when sinners turn to Jesus in repentance and faith (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21), they are instantaneously justified and sanctified. This is their new position in Christ. His righteousness has been imputed to them (cf. Gen. 15:6; Romans 4). They are declared right and holy (a forensic act of God).
But the NT also urges believers on to holiness or sanctification. It is both a theological position in the finished work of Jesus Christ and a call to be Christlike in attitude and actions in daily life. As salvation is a free gift and a cost-everything lifestyle, so too, is sanctification.
Initial Response A Progressive Christlikeness
Acts 26:18
Romans 15:16
1 Corinthians 1:2-3; 6:11
2 Thessalonians 2:13
Hebrews 2:11; 10:10,14; 13:12
2 Peter 1:2 Romans 6:19
2 Cor. 7:1
Ephesians 1:4; 2:10
1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3-4,7; 5:2
1 Timothy 2:15
2 Timothy 2:21
1 Peter 1:15-16
Hebrews 12:14
let me know what is your belief on this doctrine.
@Johann wrote: sanctification is both instantaneous and progressive.
Apologies, my concentration was a little off yesterday. I agree but not in the way you mean, in the order that you quote.
I agree that justification and sanctification take place together, but also glorification:
Romans 8:29–30 — “Those whom he justified he also sanctified, and those whom he sanctified he also glorified”
Romans 8:29 - “those whom he foreknew he predestined, and those whom he predestined he called, and those whom he called he justified, and those whom he justified he glorified.”
Romans 8:17 -"If we are children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him."
Col 3:4 -“When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory”.
The last text, I believe, is referring to the appearance of Christ in the life of a believer, as in His appearance to the disciples which I mentioned earlier in my response to Lizbeth and which was taught by the early Quakers and follows the three steps of the ECF 'highway to holiness' finishing in Theosis or union/entire sanctification.
I notice how often the Greek uses present/aorist indicative active and thank you for that study, it is very useful. I sometimes regret not going on from a studies in modern Greek for some evangelistic tours in Greece, to the Koine, but I can get by without, with the help of you clever people..
I stopped after looking up the following: 2 Peter 1:2 Heb 13:12 Rom 6:19 2 Cor. 7:1 eph 2:10 as I thought they were not pertinent.
So yes there is a progressive period as acknowledged in patristic studies, whereby a man who has already turned to Christ, must go through a period of purification or trials, and reach much deeper level of repentance than he had known before, as the man sees himself truly in full exposure, to fit him for the reception of the blessing of entire sanctification/Theosis.
The problem is that men are taking for granted scriptures that do not yet apply to them. They are still in the early stages but take on the promises meant for the latter stages and mainstream Protestantism has brought about this great deception to the church of God, diminishing the power of God that fully sanctified believers have, as seen in the NT and early days of the church, (with glimpses of it at other times) whereby they turn the world upside down, if indeed they are sons of the living God and not merely disciples.
I hope that gives you a good description of where I am at in understanding scripture.
Apologies, my concentration was a little off yesterday. I agree but not in the way you mean, in the order that you quote.
I agree that justification and sanctification take place together, but also glorification:
Romans 8:29–30 — “Those whom he justified he also sanctified, and those whom he sanctified he also glorified”
Romans 8:29 - “those whom he foreknew he predestined, and those whom he predestined he called, and those whom he called he justified, and those whom he justified he glorified.”
Romans 8:17 -"If we are children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him."
Col 3:4 -“When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory”.
The last text, I believe, is referring to the appearance of Christ in the life of a believer, as in His appearance to the disciples which I mentioned earlier in my response to Lizbeth and which was taught by the early Quakers and follows the three steps of the ECF 'highway to holiness' finishing in Theosis or union/entire sanctification.
I notice how often the Greek uses present/aorist indicative active and thank you for that study, it is very useful. I sometimes regret not going on from a studies in modern Greek for some evangelistic tours in Greece, to the Koine, but I can get by without, with the help of you clever people..
I stopped after looking up the following: 2 Peter 1:2 Heb 13:12 Rom 6:19 2 Cor. 7:1 eph 2:10 as I thought they were not pertinent.
So yes there is a progressive period as acknowledged in patristic studies, whereby a man who has already turned to Christ, must go through a period of purification or trials, and reach much deeper level of repentance than he had known before, as the man sees himself truly in full exposure, to fit him for the reception of the blessing of entire sanctification/Theosis.
The problem is that men are taking for granted scriptures that do not yet apply to them. They are still in the early stages but take on the promises meant for the latter stages and mainstream Protestantism has brought about this great deception to the church of God, diminishing the power of God that fully sanctified believers have, as seen in the NT and early days of the church, (with glimpses of it at other times) whereby they turn the world upside down, if indeed they are sons of the living God and not merely disciples.
I hope that gives you a good description of where I am at in understanding scripture.
Scripture: 1 Thessalonians 5:23
"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Explanation of Instantaneous and Progressive Sanctification:
Grammar and Syntax Analysis:
"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely;"
Verb Phrase (VP): "sanctify you completely" – The verb "sanctify" is in the aorist subjunctive, suggesting a wish or prayer for a completed action, indicating the potential for instantaneous sanctification.
Adverb "completely": Modifies the verb "sanctify," emphasizing the thoroughness and completeness of the action.
"and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Conjunction "and": Connects two related prayers or wishes, indicating a sequence or continuation.
Verb Phrase (VP): "be preserved blameless" – The verb "preserved" is in the aorist subjunctive, similar to "sanctify," suggesting a desire for a continued state of being blameless.
Adjective "blameless": Describes the state of the spirit, soul, and body, indicating an ongoing process of being kept pure.
Morphological Analysis:
"Sanctify" (ἁγιάσαι): This verb is derived from the Greek root "ἁγιάζω" (hagiazō), meaning "to make holy" or "to consecrate." The use of the aorist tense here points to a specific moment of action, aligning with the concept of instantaneous sanctification.
"Completely" (ὁλοτελεῖς): This adverb is formed from the Greek words "ὅλος" (holos) meaning "whole" and "τελέω" (teleō) meaning "to complete" or "to perfect." It underscores the totality of the sanctification process, implying that sanctification, while potentially instantaneous, is also thorough and all-encompassing.
"Preserved" (τηρηθείη): This verb, from the Greek root "τηρέω" (tēreō), means "to keep" or "to guard." Its aorist subjunctive form indicates a continuous action that is wished for, supporting the idea of progressive sanctification.
"Blameless" (ἀμέμπτως): An adjective from the Greek root "ἄμεμπτος" (amemptos), meaning "blameless" or "without fault." This term suggests an ongoing state of purity and righteousness that needs to be maintained, aligning with progressive sanctification.
Synthesis:
The verse from 1 Thessalonians 5:23 supports both instantaneous and progressive sanctification through its grammatical structure and morphological details. The prayer for God to "sanctify you completely" in the aorist subjunctive form suggests a one-time, comprehensive action (instantaneous sanctification).
Simultaneously, the desire for believers to "be preserved blameless" implies a continuous, ongoing process of maintaining this state of sanctity (progressive sanctification).
The use of the conjunction "and" ties these concepts together, indicating that both aspects are part of the sanctification experience: a decisive act of being made holy, followed by an ongoing process of living out that holiness in every aspect of one's being.
The concept of Theosis, also known as divinization or deification, is rooted in the belief that humans can become partakers of the divine nature through grace. This idea is primarily found in Eastern Orthodox theology but also has biblical foundations. Here are some key scriptures and theological points where the concept of Theosis can be identified:
Key Scriptures:
2 Peter 1:4:
Scripture: "By which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
Explanation: This verse directly supports the idea of Theosis, indicating that believers can partake in the divine nature, transcending human limitations through God's promises.
John 17:22-23:
Scripture: "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."
Explanation: Jesus prays for believers to be united with Him and the Father, reflecting the intimate union that characterizes Theosis.
1 John 3:2:
Scripture: "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."
Explanation: This passage suggests a future transformation into the likeness of Christ, aligning with the concept of becoming more divine in nature.
Romans 8:29-30:
Scripture: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
Explanation: This highlights the process of believers being conformed to the image of Christ, culminating in glorification, which resonates with the idea of Theosis.
Theological Context:
Early Church Fathers:
Athanasius of Alexandria: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God" (De Incarnatione, 54:3). I mean--really @Hepzibah! This statement encapsulates the transformative aspect of Theosis, where humanity is elevated through the incarnation of Christ.
Irenaeus of Lyons: "If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods" (Adversus Haereses, Book 5, Preface). Irenaeus emphasizes the participatory nature of salvation in Theosis.
Eastern Orthodox Theology:
I mean-REALLY @Hepzibah?!!! Hope this is NOT how YOU believe!
Gregory of Nazianzus: Stresses the transformative union with God through Christ, where human nature is divinized.
Maximus the Confessor: Elaborates on the synergy between divine grace and human will in the process of Theosis, emphasizing that humans are called to grow in the likeness of God.
Summary:
Theosis is deeply embedded in Christian theology and scripture, highlighting the transformative journey of believers into the divine nature. Key scriptures such as 2 Peter 1:4, John 17:22-23, 1 John 3:2, and Romans 8:29-30 provide a biblical foundation for this concept. The theological reflections of early Church Fathers like Athanasius and Irenaeus further elucidate the belief that through Christ, humanity is invited to partake in the divine nature, achieving a profound union with God.
I don't hold to the ECF--
So let's begin from here @Hepzibah
Last edited by a moderator:
Well first of all we see it in the disciples whom we are to use as examples, after they were called by Christ and followed Him, but went through many struggles trying to understand the things He was saying and falling into the sin of competition amongst themselves, culminating in denying Him at the time of the Trial. They had to go through a trial first to know what was in their hearts, waiting for the Illumination they were given eventually.
Then we can look at the story of the Israelites on their journey from captivity, where they cross the Red Sea signifying the blood of Christ, and their adventures towards the Promised Land which they failed to enter.
We see Paul trying to teach the Galatians 17But if, while we seek to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners, does that make Christ a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18If I rebuild what I have already torn down, I prove myself to be a lawbreaker.
He was dismissing their idea that a Christian can still sin and be in Christ, probably the other gospel he spoke of was gradual sanctification.
Then:
12All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”c 11Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”d 12The law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”e
13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”f 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abrahamg would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
So he is preaching sanctification as something instantaneous which has already occurred on the cross and on which they are to believe and not work for their sanctification (though we are to co-operate).
The evidence of their error was that were still sinning whereas Christ came to free us from sins. Woe to those who say it is just positional.
Scripture: "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."
Explanation: This passage suggests a future transformation into the likeness of Christ, aligning with the concept of becoming more divine in nature.
Romans 8:29-30:
Indeed he was speaking to those who were still 'on the journey' so it was future for them whereby they would be transformed so that hey could share in the energies of God but not His essence which can neither be understood by man.
Explanation: This passage suggests a future transformation into the likeness of Christ, aligning with the concept of becoming more divine in nature.
Romans 8:29-30:
Indeed he was speaking to those who were still 'on the journey' so it was future for them whereby they would be transformed so that hey could share in the energies of God but not His essence which can neither be understood by man.
Paul, a minister of holiness, spoke a lot in his letters to those who were not yet in Christ though they were disciples.
@Johann I fully understand your position as it was the one I held onto for a lot of my 50 years as a believer after a profound conversion experience from atheism. I will present my case and how I interpret scripture but there is little chance in fact no chance of me reverting to my previous beliefs, which I held before doing extensive reading outside of evangelicalism.
I found the freedom that is promised in scripture that is to say freedom to obey my Lord perfectly and have victory over sin the flesh and the world.
I found the freedom that is promised in scripture that is to say freedom to obey my Lord perfectly and have victory over sin the flesh and the world.
A change of thought--Question, do you hold to sinless perfection? @Hepzibah-are you "deified"
And what about the Imperatives recorded in Scriptures? We are to WORK out our own salvation with fear and trembling and incorrect--we are not "working for our sanctification"
What about Theosis? You agree with that and how the ECF taught it?
J.
Similar threads
- Sticky
