Leaders That Don't Support Good Works or Overcoming Sin

[Behold]

You think of Paul as a mediator..

i "think" of Paul as the "Apostle to the gentiles," in "the Time of the Gentiles", as that is how Jesus defines Him.
The "Gospel of the Grace of God" that is the "Preaching of the Cross".... came from Paul, as did "church doctrine".
This is why Paul wrote most of the NT Epistles., and this explains why Peter said that Paul's letters are "Scripture".

That's God's character...merciful. Jesus didn't have to come to die to accomplish

'"Jesus came into the world to Save sinners".

A.) ""For thou, LORD, art good, and ready to FORGIVE; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon you".

 

[Episkopos]

i "think" of Paul as the "Apostle to the gentiles," in "the Time of the Gentiles", as that is how Jesus defines Him.
The "Gospel of the Grace of God" that is the "Preaching of the Cross".... came from Paul, as did "church doctrine".
This is why Paul wrote most of the NT Epistles., and this explains why Peter said that Paul's letters are "Scripture".



'"Jesus came into the world to Save sinners".

A.) ""For thou, LORD, art good, and ready to FORGIVE; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon you".

It's obvious that God is holy and needs to bring us into that holiness to have intimacy with Him. Jesus came to reconcile us to a holy walk...not just forgive a constant unholiness.

Paul was merely sent to the nations as a mission...not because the message was any different. Those who deviate from the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus preached are preaching ANOTHER gospel. Guess who said that?

All who have experienced what the kingdom of God is...know that there are many ways to describe it....but only one reality and truth. (And describing the holy walk in one's own words is not blasphemy or strange fire or whatever else some diverted ones from the truth might conjure up. Quite the opposite. If someone simply parrots bible verses, that's a sign of an indoctrination, not a real testimony.)

Paul was giving his testimony. He was coming at it from being an unbeliever and persecutor. What better way to reach the nations than to come from a hostile position? So we need a radical conversion experience to understand the depth of Paul's words...or else...we need to humble ourselves and ask God what Paul is talking about. The bible is a book of questions that God needs to answer for us to enter into the divine fellowship of the Son. There is no salvation based on proper doctrines. Sound doctrine merely affirms what people are experiencing by grace through faith. And it defends against the many pretenders to faith...actually beliefs...that rise up through vain religion and self-interested ideology.

 

[Behold]

MacArthur An Introduction to Lordship Salvation I dont agree with him on everything, but he does not ignore this topic at all. It's frequent for him.

"Lordship Salvation" is a lie.

Listen.
We come to Jesus as a SINNER... and God's offer of Salvation, is a GIFT... "The Gift of Salvation" that is "The Gift of Righteousness".
You dont earn or keep, God's Gifts... They are eternal and freely given.
God does not require you to make a bargain, to receive Christ., as McArthur, teaches.

God says.......bring you sins, bring your self, and give my your Faith in Christ, and I will pay for your sin with the blood and death of Jesus, and now being made free from sin, i will join MY SPIRIT to yours, and you will become BORN AGAIN.

The Liar "McArthur" teaches this.. ""God says... only if you promise, FIRST< to make "Jesus Lord of your life'... will i take you."""

And that is a lie from hell.

Reader let me show you a reality check.

Jesus IS LORD.........no matter if you believe it or not.
Jesus is LORD OF ALL, not matter if you believe it or not.
Your faith, or your lack of faith, has no bearing on the Lord, as He is LORD of Heaven and Earth, and under the earth., and every "knew shall bow and tongue confess, that Jesus Is LORD">.. .and that means atheists, devils, and heretics like MacArthur.

 

[Behold]

It's obvious that God is holy and needs to bring us into that holiness

Its "obvious" that you have no idea what it means to be born again, Into God, as having "passed from death to Life", and now the Born Again, Christian, is become "a new Creation".

You could talk all day, as is your habit... and try to prove that you understand this, @Episkopos , but, you dont, and all you can do is just redundantly repost, your "outer man", "lower, higher, walk , religious science fiction"... Legalism, ...,where you are trying to pretend that your righteousness is your doing..

You've already told us that your sins are not forgiven, when you told us over 10X that "The Cross is not about Forgiveness".

Your theology, is yours alone., and you should keep it that way.

 

[Episkopos]

Its "obvious" that you have no idea what it means to be born again, Into God, as having "passed from death to Life", and now the Born Again, Christian, is become "a new Creation".

You could talk all day, as is your habit... and try to prove that you understand this, @Episkopos , but, you dont, and all you can do is just redundantly repost, your "outer man", "lower, higher, walk , religious science fiction"... Legalism, ...,where you are trying to pretend that your righteousness is your doing..

You've already told us that your sins are not forgiven, when you told us over 10X that "The Cross is not about Forgiveness".

Your theology, is yours alone., and you should keep it that way.

Only God can forgive sins in an eternal way. And He has always done so. He decides who is forgiven...and He is a very merciful God. What God doesn't forgive is the pretense of pretenders that accuse others who are actually saved by grace. You are claiming to be forgiven for all sins past, present and future, from a false gospel that caters to the flesh. What is obvious here, is that you have no understanding of what you are trying to explain to others.

If you could be honest and repent of your religious hubris...you too could be forgiven much transgression.

 

[Behold]

Only God can forgive sins in an eternal way. And He has always done so.

So, now you are wanting to talk about "forgiveness", after you posted over 10X, that "the Cross is not about FORGIVENESS">.

This is so typical of you to try find a way out of your Cross Denying, when its revealed., again and again, by your own mouth. @Episkopos

And you want to explain that God forgives, yet, you have Denied that Jesus is the Only Way to God, as God's Forgiveness.. which is the Cross of Christ.

So, keep talking, as you are one of the best examples ive been able to use for some years now, regarding a self saving Legalist, whose idea of their own Salvation teaches that "The Cross is not about Forgiveness"..

Keep trying to find it somewhere else, Mr Legalist, and see where that ends up for you...

 

[Episkopos]

So, now you are wanting to talk about "forgiveness", after you posted over 10X, that "the Cross is not about FORGIVENESS">.

Reading skills and lack of honesty aside...I have stated, for those who can read, that Jesus didn't have to come to us to accomplish God's mercy..as God has always been merciful.

God doesn't need the cross to forgive,. That's a false gospel. The devil wants to insult God by saying that someone has to die for God to be merciful. God is love. God is very forgiving and giving. So stop attacking God's righteous character.

What we needed restoration for was a way to live with a holy God...forever. For that we have to let go our old lives and be empowered by resurrection life...here and now. Those who are obedient to the gospel will receive glorified bodies. But first comes the BIG TEST and the training IN holiness to rule with Christ over the righteous.

This is so typical of you to try find a way out of your Cross Denying, when its revealed., again and again, by your own mouth. @Episkopos

You lie like you breathe, That shows the origin of your message, It's all flesh. You haven't a clue about truth or holiness...so you are duped.

The cross is about holiness...sanctification from ALL sin...and the resurrection life that has no spot or wrinkle of sin in it. This is to be entered into in real experience by grace through faith...and walked in.

And you want to explain that God forgives, yet, you have Denied that Jesus is the Only Way to God, as God's Forgiveness.. which is the Cross of Christ.

false. You have understood nothing...or are willfully misrepresenting everything I say.

Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY to the Father. One can only see or enter into the kingdom realm of the Spirit when one is born of the Spirit.

But you only have theoretical knowledge that is actually wrong.

So, keep talking, as you are one of the best examples ive been able to use for some years now, regarding a self saving Legalist, whose idea of their own Salvation teaches that "The Cross is not about Forgiveness"..

The legalism is to claim Jesus as your sacrifice...and claim you can't be prosecuted for sin. Only a legalist does this. But a crooked legalist at that.

Keep trying to find it somewhere else, Mr Legalist, and see where that ends up for you...

Keep avoiding the cross and the truth. See where that gets you.

 

[Behold]

Reading skills and lack of honesty aside...I

You've stated that "God does not give His Righteousness to anyone".. .so that would be YOU, as you are defining yourself.

And you've told us over 13x, that "The Cross is not about Forgiveness"... so, as God's forgiveness for SIN, is not found anywhere else as supplied by God, then you've denied that you are forgiven, by your own words @Episkopos .

I wonder who'll give you some more "likes" for that?

So....See how that works?
And you can't undo that, once you've proven it about your own theology.
All you can do is try to lie your way around it... again and again.

Do you comprehend this yet?

God doesn't need the cross to forgive,. That's a false gospel. T

The Devil loves a Cross Denier.
He really does., and you just did pleased Him again.
Its your Ministry......of that you've proven, and you will prove it again, @Episkopos

Now, imagine a "christian" Forum, with MODS... who let a person continue to TEACH that """God does not need the Cross to Forgive"..as you just stated..... and yet that's all God has provided. as John 14:6... to Forgive, to Save..

 

[Episkopos]

You've stated that "God does not give His Righteousness to anyone".. .so that would be YOU, as you are defining yourself.

And you've told us over 13x, that "The Cross is not about Forgiveness"... so, as God's forgiveness for SIN, is not found anywhere else as supplied by God, then you've denied that you are forgiven, by your own words @Episkopos .

I wonder who'll give you some more "likes" for that?

So....See how that works?
And you can't undo that, once you've proven it about your own theology.
All you can do is try to lie your way around it... again and again.

Do you comprehend this yet?





The Devil loves a Cross Denier.
He really does., and you just did pleased Him again.
Its your Ministry......of that you've proven, and you will prove it again, @Episkopos

Now, imagine a "christian" Forum, with MODS... who let a person continue to TEACH that """God does not need the Cross to Forgive"..as you just stated..... and yet that's all God has provided. as John 14:6... to Forgive, to Save..

I leave it for people to choose...either Jesus Barabbas...and the freedom from prosecution for sins....OR...Jesus Bar Abba the Son of the living God...who went to the cross to liberate us from sin and give us His life and holiness to be His Bride and live forever in holiness with the Father who is holy.

Choose this day...blessing or cursing.

 

[Behold]

I leave it for people to choose...either Jesus Barabbas..

yes..

That's what you have created, now for yourself.
Members are going to read what you've posted, and they are going to know you, as i do, would be God's will.

They are going to read that you posted that : "God does not need the Cross to forgive".. , Yet Jesus is the proof you are deceiving, and these members know that God forgave their sin, based on JESUS's Sacrifice on THE Cross.

They are going to read that you posted many many times that : "The CROSS Is NOT ABOUT FORGIVENESS"

They are going to read that you posted, that : "God does not Give His Righteousness", and Yet Paul said that the BELIEVER is given..

"The Gift of Righteousness".

So, let them read it..ALL.. @Episkopos

Good..
Perfect.

 

[amadeus]

I leave it for people to choose...either Jesus Barabbas...and the freedom from prosecution for sins....OR...Jesus Bar Abba the Son of the living God...who went to the cross to liberate us from sin and give us His life and holiness to be His Bride and live forever in holiness with the Father who is holy.

Choose this day...blessing or cursing.

Joh 10:10

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

 

[Wynona]

MacArthur An Introduction to Lordship Salvation I dont agree with him on everything, but he does not ignore this topic at all. It's frequent for him.

Thank you for this. Someone used this in a debate with me and I didn't know exactly what he meant. This seems like quite a few steps in the right direction.

 

[Lizbeth]

THE great dispute here would be resolved if the two parties would acknowledge that they are not using the term born again, for the same event.

It is true that the scriptures attribute all of the benefits of higher walk, if you wish, to that term.

John is saying no, scripture does not mean that. Born again is a sample of what should follow. No again.

The thing cannot be resolved in these two entrenched positions and the argument goes on, and on, and on.

I propose the solution to be that the event of becoming a disciple, of encountering Christ, of saying yes to God, of coming to Him for forgiveness, is not what scripture describe as as born again. Yes it is huge and life changing, if at that point, both sides will agree, that one has not achieved everything that He wishes to do with us. Maturity. A man after His own image. Not a babe.

So that term is not scriptural. For the disciples, already following Christ, it happened later at Pentecost, and all things in scripture are to give us examples and guidlelines.

Both sides are mistaken.For one side though, it is a matter of finding a better term. The other side must change their theology. That happened in a flash for me when God granted enlightenment.

I agree....but maybe only up to a point depending on how one means it. It says of Mary, who was a figure for us, the church......"That which was CONCEIVED in her was of the Holy Spirit." Conceived, though not yet fully formed and born.......but still very much of the Holy Spirit. So I don't want to lose sight of the 'yes, but not necessarily yet' of scripture...and that the promises are yes and amen even if not yet fully realized. Even when not yet fully formed, that developing baby is very much the Lord's.

(Paul used the allegory of labour and Christ being formed in them.....Christ IS in us but also being formed until He is fully formed. Being fully formed is really the birth of Him too, since that is what Paul was in labour for and labour is for birthing.)

 

[Lizbeth]

All who have experienced what the kingdom of God is...know that there are many ways to describe it....but only one reality and truth. (And describing the holy walk in one's own words is not blasphemy or strange fire or whatever else some diverted ones from the truth might conjure up. Quite the opposite. If someone simply parrots bible verses, that's a sign of an indoctrination, not a real testimony.)

Simply describing something in one's own words to help the understanding is fine, if it's accurate and is pointing and bridging one, so to speak, to GOD'S word on the matter.....but using ones own words to form the actual doctrine...and insisting that others accept it as God's doctrine, is deceptive and misses the mark. Subtle difference.........but there's a world of difference between the two.

As for parroting. Sure if that is what one is doing. But if one is understanding and perceiving and receiving what is written, that is not mere parroting and indoctrination.

Kind of like choosing Barabbas or Jesus.....sure if choosing Barabbas is what someone is actually doing, but not if it's just another false accusation.

 

[Hepzibah]

I agree....but maybe only up to a point depending on how one means it. It says of Mary, who was a figure for us, the church......"That which was CONCEIVED in her was of the Holy Spirit." Conceived, though not yet fully formed and born.......but still very much of the Holy Spirit. So I don't want to lose sight of the 'yes, but not necessarily yet' of scripture...and that the promises are yes and amen even if not yet fully realized. Even when not yet fully formed, that developing baby is very much the Lord's.

(Paul used the allegory of labour and Christ being formed in them.....Christ IS in us but also being formed until He is fully formed. Being fully formed is really the birth of Him too, since that is what Paul was in labour for and labour is for birthing.)

I don't get how Mary is a figure of the church when the church is the bride of Christ?? Must be missing something.

There is a difference between purity and maturity. According to your view, the newly converted have a pure heart. What does that mean to you? Can anything impure come out of a pure thing? In fact scripture says that dirty water and clean water cannot come out of the same tap/faucet.

 

[Lizbeth]

I don't get how Mary is a figure of the church when the church is the bride of Christ?? Must be missing something.

There is a difference between purity and maturity. According to your view, the newly converted have a pure heart. What does that mean to you? Can anything impure come out of a pure thing? In fact scripture says that dirty water and clean water cannot come out of the same tap/faucet.

Receiving His word/seed speaks to a bride/wife receiving seed of her Husband resulting in conception. Mary believed/received the word/seed of God that was delivered to her and that is what brought about the conception of Christ in her. The Holy Spirit overshadowed her....and what was conceived in her is holy. Allegories are not literal........this was also the time of her betrothal. Which corresponds to our time of betrothal.......betrothal being as binding as marriage and being the guarantee or promise of the consummation/marriage to come. (Assuming the young lady who is betrothed does not commit 'adultery' in the meantime....we need to be faithful to the Lord.)

Bible says the new man is created after the image of Christ. So yes, pure, holy, righteous I would think...there is no lack in Him. That is why He in us is the hope of glory. But also, I think not yet fully formed in most of us (allegorically speaking), until it is. He who began a good work in us is working to complete/perform it until the day of Christ.

I am no scholar and not knowledgeable about grammar, but I like how the Amplified version is expressing this...it seems to capture the sense of these passages as far as I can tell....though I don't know what you think of it:

Phl 1:6
I am convinced and confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will [continue to] perfect and complete it until the day of Christ Jesus [the time of His return].

Gal 3:3
Are you so foolish and senseless? Having begun [your new life by faith] with the Spirit, are you now being perfected and reaching spiritual maturity by the flesh [that is, by your own works and efforts to keep the Law]?

Conditional and subject to our being obedient (running the race lawfully), and patiently cooperating and enduring this work of God in our hearts/lives to mature and complete/perfect His workmanship.

 

[PS95]

Thank you for this. Someone used this in a debate with me and I didn't know exactly what he meant. This seems like quite a few steps in the right direction.

You're welcome! He has many on the topic. He coined the phrase.
I think if we just quote parts of the bible we could come up sounding like we teach a cheap grace too.
I think the same is true of many pastors- unless you are a church member who regularly attends, or listens to most or all of his sermons online. Paul was falsely accused of teaching that too. We need to be careful.
Having said that-- I know they do exist!

 

[PS95]

"Lordship Salvation" is a lie.

Listen.
We come to Jesus as a SINNER... and God's offer of Salvation, is a GIFT... "The Gift of Salvation" that is "The Gift of Righteousness".
You dont earn or keep, God's Gifts... They are eternal and freely given.
God does not require you to make a bargain, to receive Christ., as McArthur, teaches.

God says.......bring you sins, bring your self, and give my your Faith in Christ, and I will pay for your sin with the blood and death of Jesus, and now being made free from sin, i will join MY SPIRIT to yours, and you will become BORN AGAIN.

The Liar "McArthur" teaches this.. ""God says... only if you promise, FIRST< to make "Jesus Lord of your life'... will i take you."""

And that is a lie from hell.

Reader let me show you a reality check.

Jesus IS LORD.........no matter if you believe it or not.
Jesus is LORD OF ALL, not matter if you believe it or not.
Your faith, or your lack of faith, has no bearing on the Lord, as He is LORD of Heaven and Earth, and under the earth., and every "knew shall bow and tongue confess, that Jesus Is LORD">.. .and that means atheists, devils, and heretics like MacArthur.

You just DON'T get it. No one said we are earning a thing. Those are YOUR WORDS.

 

[Behold]

You just DON'T get it. No one said we are earning a thing. Those are YOUR WORDS.

"Lordship Salvation"..

"If Jesus is not Lord of All, He's not Lord at all".

Every read that junk?

So, Jesus is LORD, of ALL......... no matter if you make Him your Lord or not..


Now, "lordship salvation", tries to insert, "making Jesus Lord, as a part of God's GIFT of Salvation".

"if you make Him Lord'.. YOU MUST AGREE !! then...... "God will give you the GIFT of Salvation".

See the issue?

Salvation is not "one part you do this, and then God does His part as a GIFT, because you agreed to do something to receive God's GIFT of Salvation".

Lordship Salvation, is just one more theological con game, one more way to try to insert a sort of Legalism contract, into God's Gift.

Its just one "doctrine of devils"......among many.

 

[PS95]

"Lordship Salvation"..

"If Jesus is not Lord of All, He's not Lord at all".

Every read that junk?

So, Jesus is LORD, of ALL......... no matter if you make Him your Lord or not..


Now, "lordship salvation", tries to insert, "making Jesus Lord, as a part of God's GIFT of Salvation".

"if you make Him Lord'.. YOU MUST AGREE !! then...... "God will give you the GIFT of Salvation".

See the issue?

Salvation is not "one part you do this, and then God does His part as a GIFT, because you agreed to do something to receive God's GIFT of Salvation".

Lordship Salvation, is just one more theological con game, one more way to try to insert a sort of Legalism contract, into God's Gift.

Its just one "doctrine of devils"......among many.

You make little sense. All you do is attack the brethren over this which you do not understand properly.
l strongly suggest to you that you read the entire NT and quit cherry picking the same verses. I am not here to argue with you. I leave you with this-
2 Peter 1
1Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.