The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

Yep. They try to distract us with personal insults because they know that's all they have. Everyone can see that. If you try to get them to actually exegete scripture, you see what happens if they even try. It's embarrassing for them. No wonder they rarely even try to do it.

Exactly. They butcher God's Book. They do not want to consider truth. Of course,
it takes eyes to see for that.

Their forced types re 50/50 salvation and Noah in the ark for 6 days representing 6 years of tribulation is a joke. They focus on that because they have nothing else.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly. They butcher God's Book. They do not want to consider truth. Of course,
it takes eyes to see for that.

For sure.

Their forced types re 50/50 salvation and Noah in the ark for 6 days representing 6 years of tribulation is a joke. They focus on that because they have nothing else.

I literally laughed out loud just reading that. It's truly unbelievable the kinds of things they believe. Some of them will literally go to any lengths to try to keep their doctrines afloat.

Here's another example of the kind of nonsense they will resort to, which you may not have seen. I was debating with poster "tailgator" tonight in one thread about his understanding of Revelation 20 and of the resurrection of the dead. I showed him what Paul taught about the order of the resurrections of the dead unto bodily immortality in 1 Corinthians 15:20-23. As you know, he taught that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection and next in order to be resurrected are those that are His at His second coming. So, I was making the argument that Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection of Revelation 20 and we all spiritually have part in it.

So, what does he do in response to the truth I showed him from 1 Cor 15:20-23? He gives me this nonsense about John being told to write down what is written in the book of Revelation, but Paul was never told to write down a book of prophecy and never told to write down prophecy and that he was sent to preach the gospel instead. So, this guy has the gall to undermine Paul and his teachings just because he didn't write the book of Revelation. As if Paul was not inspired by the Holy Spirit, but John was. So, he's basically saying that Paul's writings relating to Bible prophecy can be ignored in favor of what is written in the book of Revelation. Can you believe this kind of nonsense? It boggles my mind. It makes about as much sense as Doug's charts, which means it makes no sense at all.

 

[Douggg]

 

[Douggg]

 

[WPM]

View attachment 47702

If you are not going to engage in biblical discussion, but simply continue to place your charts on this thread then please move to another subject. This is a discussion forum.

I am not prepared to let you derail this thread.

 

[Douggg]

If you are not going to engage in biblical discussion, but continue to place your charts on this thread then please move to another discussion. This is a discussion forum.

I am not prepared to let you derail this thread. If you continue. I will report you.

You and Spiritual Israelite are making posts to each other - talking about other posters which you should be doing in private messages to each other - not as posts in the thread.

My charts are about biblical issues - in hopes of getting the thread back to biblical discussion, not gossip between you and Spiritual Israelite.

 

[WPM]

You and Spiritual Israelite are making posts to each other - talking about other posters which you should be doing in private messages to each other - not as posts in the thread.

My charts are about biblical issues - in hopes of getting the thread back to biblical discussion, not gossip between you and Spiritual Israelite.

Ok. I apologize for that. It is not my intent to offend you. It can be frustrating posting detailed biblical analyzes, whereupon you just post a chart (which i never read), as a rebuttal. I also do not do links. To then dismiss others arguments as deficient because they do not present a chart is unacceptable and annoying. That comes across as prideful.

I will delete what I wrote to SJ, i will ask him to do the same. I know that is not his intent.

 

[MA2444]

Yes, I will stop that. This is my last post to you and I promise you that. We're done. You not accepting what I'm saying even though it's true is lame. I'm done with that.

Yes, maybe that's best then.

 

[Douggg]

It can be frustrating posting detailed biblical analyzes, whereupon you just post a chart (which i never read), as a rebuttal.

Inserting an image is an option for posters when they make a post. If you don't read some-one's chart, that's your choice. But it does not alter my posting charts that I made, which organize end times events in relation to one another, and in consideration of the end times time frames given in the bible.

In your post presentations, comprised of sentences, you never incorporate the time frames in the content of those sentences - which end times time frames are a critical part of properly understanding the scriptures.

For example, in sentence form...

The great tribulation will last 1335 days, which during that time no-one will be saying peace and safety.

 

[MA2444]

• Please remember that the Resurrection and Rapture occur at the coming of the Lord.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• Also the Resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs before the Rapture.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16

• As well as the Resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture takes place as one event at His coming, whereby we will all be caught up together in the air and we will all be with Him.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


Please consider these things.




JLB

I missed this before. This thread is moving fast.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words..../KJV

These are all rapture verses. but it is two events that have different purposes. In the rapture Jesus Himself comes for His Bride.

John 14:3
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.../KJV

And He raptures us to the air for Himself. Then shortly after that the Trib starts. Because we are not appointed unto wrath. Revelation 3:10, Romans 5:9, 1 Thess 1:10, 1 Thess 5:3, 1 Thess 5:9...

Then after the trib when Jesus makes his Parousia 2nd coming, He has the Angels to gather His elect from the 4 winds.

Matthew 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other....KJV

You see why I see it as two events? No single scripture verse comes right out and says it explicitly, but the clues are all over the place. Here's another one:

How do we know it's two events?

Matthew 23:37-39
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.
38 And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate.[j]
39 For I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say, ‘Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the Lord!’[k]”.../NLT

We know from scripture that He doesnt return to Israel until after the great trib. That's when He touches down at the Mt of Olives.
In one event He comes for His Bride, in the air. In another event He comes to the earth at the Mt of Olives.
There's a host of other (scriptural) reasons why it is two events and not one. With the Doctrine of Imminency being formost I think. (Matthew 24:44, Be ye ready Always..) Rev 16:15

 

[JLB]

Seriously? Where does Scripture teach that?

Blow the trumpet at the time of the New Moon, at the full moon, on our solemn feast day. Psalms 81:3


“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matthew 24:36-37


We may not know the day or hour, however we are to watch the signs Jesus gave, so that day doesn't come upon us as a thief in the night.

 

[MA2444]

Matthew 23:37-39
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.
38 And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate.[j]
39 For I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say, ‘Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the Lord!’[k]”.../NLT

Israel has not done that yet, as a nation. It takes a great tribulation to shake them up enough to cry out to the Messiah! The Trib is mostly about Israel, His chosen people who rejected Him.

WW II took 1 out of 3 Jews off the earth. WW III (the great trib) will take 2 out of 3 off the earth. Dead. That's in scripture.

 

[JLB]

How do we know it's two events?

The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture is one event, in which we are gathered together in the air... at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

JLB

 

[MA2444]

So, what does he do in response to the truth I showed him from 1 Cor 15:20-23? He gives me this nonsense about John being told to write down what is written in the book of Revelation, but Paul was never told to write down a book of prophecy and never told to write down prophecy and that he was sent to preach the gospel instead. So, this guy has the gall to undermine Paul and his teachings just because he didn't write the book of Revelation. As if Paul was not inspired by the Holy Spirit, but John was. So, he's basically saying that Paul's writings relating to Bible prophecy can be ignored in favor of what is written in the book of Revelation. Can you believe this kind of nonsense? It boggles my mind. It makes about as much sense as Doug's charts, which means it makes no sense at all.

And ll that and you still did not refute anything the man said, lol. You dont refute anyone scripturally, you spout gossip and curses towards you Brothers & Sisters instead? See above. What you did what to state your opinion and you're trying to pass it off as fact when you dont even know how to refute it scripturally.

Gossip on Mamm...Have you been staying home with the ladies too much or what? You should get out more brother! (Those are jokes in case you dont realize it).

 

[WPM]

Blow the trumpet at the time of the New Moon, at the full moon, on our solemn feast day. Psalms 81:3


“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matthew 24:36-37


We may not know the day or hour, however we are to watch the signs Jesus gave, so that day doesn't come upon us as a thief in the night.

He comes at the end with the blast of the last trump. Then we are into eternity.

 

[WPM]

And ll that and you still did not refute anything the man said, lol. You dont refute anyone scripturally, you spout gossip and curses towards you Brothers & Sisters instead? See above. What you did what to state your opinion and you're trying to pass it off as fact when you dont even know how to refute it scripturally.

Gossip on Mamm...Have you been staying home with the ladies too much or what? You should get out more brother! (Those are jokes in case you dont realize it).

Why do you talk like this?

This is all projection.

 

[MA2444]

The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture is one event, in which we are gathered together in the air... at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

JLB

Right. We who are alive upon His return will not proceed those that have died in Christ, between Christs crucifixion and now at the rapture. This is the main harvest. After the Trib is the gleanings harvest to gather the last few who died or were born again, And didnt take the Mark during the trib, the remnant. Plus the 144,000 will need to be picked up too, right?

The rapture happens in the twinkling of an eye and we meet Him in the air. After the trib when Jesus comes, it will take a bit of time. Like 1000 years, lol. He stays longer.

What do we do go meet him in the air for a few seconds and then come back down to earth with Him, or what?
And if the church must go through the Tribulation, then why is scripture saying all over that we will be save dfrom wrath? If we wont be? No Brother, the Bride is the spotless one. No blemishes. Set apart. How could you think that Jesus would do this to His most precious?

He wont. He snags us out just in time to miss the Trib. The rapture does not start the Trib. The trib starts when the peace treaty is signed by Israel for 7 years. And then, we can count the days until Jesus returns! And He said the rapture is imminent. Be ready, Always.

Brother, one of the main things that the Lord has been teaching me is about Love. And He has demonstrated His Love for me so much since I have been in ohio. Oh I may be a poor man on social security but my needs are always met. I feel like His love for me which He has proven over and over again must be the same for everyone. And I'm not missing any meals, the lights are on. He knows my needs. It occured to me that, there is a lot of security in poverty! Lol. True! Life is fraught challenges and tribulations but on the plus side (!!!) it keeps one clinging to the Lord. But what's all this got to do with the rapture being pretrib?

Simple. Those promises in scripture are true. He would not make his cream of the crop humans go through the Great Tribulation! Those are the ones He saves from that by Raptureing them out before hand! I've only prolly really seen a few of God's graces and His obviousl love for me seems to show no bounds. So that means something. And who am I? Some poor hvac tech retired and poor? I'm nobody.

So it is true. For God so loved the world...that He paid an extremely high price so that I can live...and I have to believe that God dont make bad decisions! And when I get in good tune with the Holy Spirit He confirms everything with...peace in my spirit. Yes there is a lot of a need for faith to be able to believe that the Lord loves you so much that He will save you from the trials and tests which shall come upon the earth, but it's His design and calls for faith again! But if you step ito that faith even in a small way, He will certainly respond to you talking two steps in faith. That's what He does! Respond to faith! This is the same God that had 2 pounds of gourmet Hawaiian coffe beans delivered to my house! I kid you not Brother!. An old friend had called that I hadnt seen in 2 years and I invited him over. I had been praying for the Lord to do something for me and then the old friend called within seconds of my saying my Amens. I went and put on my last 1/2 pot of coffee and thought about my friend was coming over, and I wouldnt be able to serve the man a cup of coffee. I felt bad cuz I know tis friend likes coffee. It was my slow season so I didnt have any money to run up and get some, so I immediately thought about praying for it. Lord, give me some work, I have no money and I am out of coffee! I'm used to being a good host Lord and my friend is coming! But I did not pray. I thought about the scriptures which say...He knows our needs before we ask Him....worry not about what you will eat or drink tomorrow...and so I thought, Oh, so I really dont need to pray for some work so I can buy groceries, something will happen. So I didnt pray at all. All I did was thnk about prraying and then decided against it.

I didnt realize it, but that was "accidently" walking in faith! I was standing on His word in my heart. And that's what Jesus wants us to do, walk in faith. So he was all over that and within 30 minutes of when I decided not to pray for coffee, 2 pounds of Hawaaian coffee was knocking at my door! PTL! Do you realize the Almighty Creator of the Universe delivered coffee to nobody ol me?! That is the coolest thing I have ever heard of! My friend showed up with coffee and handed it to me as soon as he walked in the door...Here Ed, I know you like coffe so I brough you this. And I never had told him that I was out of coffee. He had no way of knowing that I was out, and the coolest part was that he arrived at the moment I had just poured my very last cup of coffee. So it was right on time! Last minute never late.

The Lords fingerprints are all over what happened that day. Everything just fell into place and since the Lord already knew my needs, He knew All my friend knew was that he wanted to bring me a small gift of something because he hadnt seen me in 2 years. And he had just got those beans and just chose them. Prolly at the same moment that I was at home having my coffee crisis and wondering if I should pray or not, lol! That was the Lord brother! That is the Lord!

I think that's the best Testimony I have. Oh I have other Testimonies where the Lord did bigger more supernatural things for me, but I learned so much through His gift of coffee beacsue I stood in faith on his word and did not pray. (Is the Twilight Zone or what?!) I learned how much He loves me, and that he rewards faith and obedience. And yet, I remain, nobody. Who am I?

And would this same God who delivered Coffee to me, then tell me...I hope you liked the coffe because now you can go through the Tribulation...?? I dont think so. His Character shined through to me when he gifted me coffee at the exact time I needed it. I dot think anyone could now get me to believe that he would make me go through the tribualtion. He does not have the heart for that.

That's actually the short version of that whole testimony. He actually answered the first prayer I had been praying right before my friend called too, bu that's a whole nother aspect of what happened that day so it would make it too much longer to recount i this thread.

Have faith that the Lord would want to rescue you and save you from having to experience the worst the world has ever seen before. That's not His heart or His characyer to do that to His chosen. And when it happens the truth of all those not subject to wrath scriptures will become horribly clear to all who are left behind for not being ready!

It's pretty cloudy out, it might be today!

 

[MA2444]

It's probably impossible to see the truth of a pretrib rapture without The oil of the Holy Spirit. So let not be too much doctrinal where we should be letting the Holy Spirit guide us. Walk in the spirit. Talk to the Spirit. Be led by the spirit...in all things. So not incorporating the Spirit or the oil into the doctrine as we reason together will undoubtably leave us found wanting i understanding.

He says it 1000 times in the Bible. Have Faith. Be led by the sprit. Have oil in your lamps.

I heard someone say that oil does not represent the Holy Spirit? I thought understanding that was a given to us Christian Brothers & Sisters. How in the world does Oil not represnt the Holy Spirit in scripture (and the parable of the 10 virgins)? It absolutely does.

 

[Douggg]

Gossip on Mamm...Have you been staying home with the ladies too much or what? You should get out more brother! (Those are jokes in case you dont realize it).

I suggest leaving the jokes off from the content of your posts. It only invites reciprocation from the other poster. Which tends to spin things into back and forth series of personal emotional attacks.

Just present your rationale as to why you believe what you do. And in reciprocation, hopefully the other poster will respond in similar manner of why he or she believes their position.

And try to leave off using incite-ful words, like "absurdity" as used in the title of the thread, when possible.

Think of who Christians are eternal grateful to. So praise God and Jesus, but not in a way that downgrades other posters, our brothers and sisters in Christ, for their beliefs.

We are new creations in Christ. So all here should endeavor to act as such.

 

[Douggg]

He comes at the end with the blast of the last trump. Then we are into eternity.

post-trib tends to consider that the 7th trumpet sounding in Revelation 11:15 as being the "last trumpet".

However, the other criteria for the timing of the rapture is that the world must be at ease, marrying and giving in marriage. Which would not match the great tribulation period, wnen the 7th trumpet sounds..

I consider what Paul said regarding the last trumpet - as being an expression - based on when the children of Israel during the Exodus, as they traveled through the wilderness, assembled themselves for that that day's march, did so according to a series of trumpets, with the last trumpet signaling all twelve tribes to start moving as one unit.