The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's the post. The last line. When I said that, you said no posttribber ever said that quote it and I'll severely rebuke them. WPM said he wants to promote post trib. Which is a ridiculous thig to say if you think about it.

What I meant was that he said nothing about it being a salvific issue. Okay? Once again we have misunderstood each other.

Maybe I was able to draw conclusions from his words and yours too to a lesser extent?
Ok so it is not a salvific issue.

And no one said it was. Agree?

That said, why should posttrib be promoted? You answered this once and said we should worry about persecution and tribulation...and I have shown you alredy that, that is not so.

For you. Do you speak for all pre-tribs? I don't think so. Maybe you haven't heard or seen the comments that I have of pretribs who talk about tribulation and say things like "I'm sure glad we'll be gone before that happens!". Believe me, I've both heard (in person) and read (on forums like this) pre-tribbers saying things like that a number of times. And I believe in most cases it's because they fear persecution and tribulation. Which doesn't make sense in light of scripture like this:

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

. We are under orders from our Commander in Chief to not fear. I gave you 3 scriptures to back it up...would you like 10 more? Or else, is there another good reason that Posttrib should be promoted?

Dude. Did I say otherwise? No. So, why would you need to give me 10 more scriptures to convince me of something I already know?

 

[MA2444]

There can be other problems with believing in pretrib and I already explained that to you. If what I said doesn't apply to you, then great. Noting for you to worry about then.

No Brother, no type of fear or worrying applies to me. To not fear is the most often repeated phrase in the entire Bible. So it is a big thing to the Lord for us to not walk in fear, but to lean upon Him. I've did that before! Would you like me to post the Testimony for you?!

Do you need more scriptures to believe that we are not to fear?

If I'm wrong and your right, then tell me oh Teacher, what shall I do with this verse to reconcile it in my heart? :

2 Timothy 1: 7
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind..../KJV

What do I do with that verse if I would be better off to fear?

Isaiah 41:10
Psalm 34:4
Roman 15:13
Numbers 23:19
Exodus 20:20

Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell..../KJV

Here's another sampling of scripture verses which all command us to not fear anyone or anything except the Lord.

These scriptures would have to be refuted by you in order to take your advice that we should worry. Worry is the lukewarm which go to cjurch once a week, what more do you want? Lol. You cant tear these verses out of the Bible Brother.

What post-tribber here has ever indicated that they are not ready and watching? None that I've seen. So, why are you judging all of us by making it as if we are not ready and not watching?

I admit you're doing better in this thread. But to answer your question, all you have to do is to go reread some of the stuff you wrote in the Galiliean wedding thread. Sure maybe I drew conclusions from your words. But isnt that what discussion is? But think how it sounds, ok?
You're wrong about the rapture being before the tribulation...
Sooo....I should stop watching then? I should worry about persecution and Tribulation instead? Prepare for the Tribulation? Is that what you mean? ?



I like guns. I hunt. I even make my own homemade ammunition. Hmm, I do want to prepare for Tribulation in some way. I actually had a conversation with the Lord about it. . He said the best way to prepare is to draw closer to Him. He said the Super-Preppers who have huge gun collections and 3 yrs food and all the trimmings...will not be one whit better prepared than those in Christ. He said if you reach for your sword you will die by the sword. But if you reach to Him, then they could be two feet away from you and will not see you and walk on by. They wont see you on their night vision equipment. He will hide His people.

Now when He said those things, that made a lot of sense to me. And the day that I was walking and had 3 police cars cruising the neighbrohood looking for me to arrest me, and the Holy Spirit would tell me tuen right here, go up this alley to the left...stop and rest here for a few minutes...Go up and quickly to the right...Stop...Ok now go...turn left...rest here...go make a left at the next street. And that went on for about 45 minutes to an hour. And then He said, it's safe to go home now, they called it off...
So I know what He said is true. We dont have to worry. Psalm 23 Brother. You might like guns just like me, but they aint nothing to the Lord! The Lord Himself is our preperation.

Refute that! You can't. The man with the experience is never at the mercy of the man with the doctrine. I already "know" that what you have said, is wrong brother. Got any other reasons that posttrib should be promoted?

 

[MA2444]

For you. Do you speak for all pre-tribs? I don't think so. Maybe you haven't heard or seen the comments that I have of pretribs who talk about tribulation and say things like "I'm sure glad we'll be gone before that happens!". Believe me, I've both heard (in person) and read (on forums like this) pre-tribbers saying things like that a number of times. And I believe in most cases it's because they fear persecution and tribulation. Which doesn't make sense in light of scripture like this:

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

I dont speak for all pretribbers. I speak what I know. Myself. And I agree with those you read about, I'm glad we'll be gone before that happens! It says all through scripture that we shall suffer and be persecuted and have many tribulations in the world, but fear not for He has overcome the world.

But Suffering and tribulations of life which are common to man is not the same thing s as great tribulation.

Matthew 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.../KJV

But the Bride is not appointed to wrath.:

Revelation 3:10
10 “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world..../NLT

Romans 5:
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.../KJV

I have more scriptures which say we are saved from the wrath of God. These scriptues should illustrate why the rapture needs to be pre trib. And why the rapture cant be post trib. If it is post trib, then what wrath are we saved from. The great trib will be worse than the world has ever seen before. The Lord makes tow trips for two different reasons. He said HE will come for His Bride and take her away. Then at the parousia 2nd coming He comes (with us) back to put evil down and set up his millenial Kingdom.

And if I have all my understanding ducks in a row, we will be in Heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, while the world is in Great Tribulation.

Isaiah 26:20
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.../NIV

His wrath comes to the earth during the great trib.

There. That should clear some things up.

 

[WPM]

My charts are based on what is in the scriptures. You have no charts because you cannot make a timeline because you have not figured out the end times time frames of events in the bible, how they fit together.

To intimate that putting fabricated charts together is a sign of legitimacy, orthodoxy and veracity is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. Where do you get that in Scripture?

Get off your high chair before you fall off it.

 

[MA2444]

Dude. Did I say otherwise? No. So, why would you need to give me 10 more scriptures to convince me of something I already know?

Then why did you say that pretribbers should worry about persecution and tribulation? Isn't that an odd thing to say from a man who knows that we only fear God and nothing else. To die is to gain! Nevertheless, ther is still work to be done and he needs my boots on the ground for now.

If you already know that we dont have a spirit of fear then why say we should fear persecution & Tribulation? That does not compute.

 

[WPM]

I dont speak for all pretribbers. I speak what I know. Myself. And I agree with those you read about, I'm glad we'll be gone before that happens! It says all through scripture that we shall suffer and be persecuted and have many tribulations in the world, but fear not for He has overcome the world.

But Suffering and tribulations of life which are common to man is not the same thing s as great tribulation.

Matthew 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.../KJV

But the Bride is not appointed to wrath.:

Revelation 3:10
10 “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world..../NLT

Romans 5:
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.../KJV

I have more scriptures which say we are saved from the wrath of God. These scriptues should illustrate why the rapture needs to be pre trib. And why the rapture cant be post trib. If it is post trib, then what wrath are we saved from. The great trib will be worse than the world has ever seen before. The Lord makes tow trips for two different reasons. He said HE will come for His Bride and take her away. Then at the parousia 2nd coming He comes (with us) back to put evil down and set up his millenial Kingdom.

And if I have all my understanding ducks in a row, we will be in Heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, while the world is in Great Tribulation.

Isaiah 26:20
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.../NIV

His wrath comes to the earth during the great trib.

There. That should clear some things up.

It would help if you read what Amils believe before you run your mouth off. The wrath of God is different from the wrath of Satan before Jesus comes and rescues all the righteous and destroys all the wicked. You do not get that. The coming of the Lord users in the end. After that is eternity. Simple!

 

[WPM]

Slow your roll, man. No one is saying pretrib people are evil or going to hell. Do you really think anyone here would say that? Of course not, dude. Maybe try asking for clarification first before thinking anyone is saying that. Okay? Great.

No. But he says that of Posttribbers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No Brother, no type of fear or worrying applies to me.

Great to hear, brother. So, no reason for you to take offense at what I say regarding other pre-tribs that I've either heard or read comments from.

To not fear is the most often repeated phrase in the entire Bible. So it is a big thing to the Lord for us to not walk in fear, but to lean upon Him. I've did that before! Would you like me to post the Testimony for you?!

Is it any different than the testimony you've already posted a few times? If so, there's no need. I read that. If you mean something else, go for it.

Do you need more scriptures to believe that we are not to fear?

Why, oh why, do you ask me things like this? Did I say that we have anything to fear? No, right. So, you are asking me if I need more scriptures to show me what I already believe?

If I'm wrong and your right, then tell me oh Teacher, what shall I do with this verse to reconcile it in my heart? :

2 Timothy 1: 7
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind..../KJV

What do I do with that verse if I would be better off to fear?

First, you acted like you understood that I wasn't talking about you, but other pre-tribs and then you go back to acting as if I was talking about you. Are you actually reading what I'm saying or not? Come on, dude. Please stop wasting time talking to your straw man and just talk to me instead. I said what I was talking about doesn't apply to you, so....did you somehow miss that?

I admit you're doing better in this thread. But to answer your question, all you have to do is to go reread some of the stuff you wrote in the Galiliean wedding thread. Sure maybe I drew conclusions from your words. But isnt that what discussion is? But think how it sounds, ok?

I can't help it if you misunderstand what I say. I try as hard as I can to be as clear as possible and that's all I can do.

You're wrong about the rapture being before the tribulation...

I'm not pre-trib. What are you talking about? I'm supposed to be the one telling you that you're wrong about that.

Sooo....I should stop watching then? I should worry about persecution and Tribulation instead? Prepare for the Tribulation? Is that what you mean? ?

What do you mean by watching exactly? Does it include watching out that you are not deceived? Of course you shouldn't stop doing that. Are you watching for signs of Christ's return like an increase in wickedness and a mass falling away from the faith? Of course you shouldn't stop doing that. By doing those things you are watching for Jesus to return. If you think those things have already started happening, then you should watch out that you're not deceived by those things while at the same time watching for Him to return. Cool?

I like guns. I hunt. I even make my own homemade ammunition. Hmm, I do want to prepare for Tribulation in some way. I actually had a conversation with the Lord about it. . He said the best way to prepare is to draw closer to Him. He said the Super-Preppers who have huge gun collections and 3 yrs food and all the trimmings...will not be one whit better prepared than those in Christ. He said if you reach for your sword you will die by the sword. But if you reach to Him, then they could be two feet away from you and will not see you and walk on by. They wont see you on their night vision equipment. He will hide His people.

Now when He said those things, that made a lot of sense to me. And the day that I was walking and had 3 police cars cruising the neighbrohood looking for me to arrest me, and the Holy Spirit would tell me tuen right here, go up this alley to the left...stop and rest here for a few minutes...Go up and quickly to the right...Stop...Ok now go...turn left...rest here...go make a left at the next street. And that went on for about 45 minutes to an hour. And then He said, it's safe to go home now, they called it off...
So I know what He said is true. We dont have to worry. Psalm 23 Brother. You might like guns just like me, but they aint nothing to the Lord! The Lord Himself is our preperation.

So, you understand what verses like these are about then, eh?

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Refute that! You can't. The man with the experience is never at the mercy of the man with the doctrine. I already "know" that what you have said, is wrong brother. Got any other reasons that posttrib should be promoted?

LOL. The reasons I gave are legitimate in relation to SOME pre-tribs such as ones I have talked to before. Understand, bro? Do you speak for all pre-tribbers? No, you do not. Understand, big man? I made it clear that what I was saying does NOT apply to you because you understand that all Christians go through persecution and tribulation at some point regardless of when the rapture occurs. Okay, brother man? So, I am applying it to other pre-tribbers who have specifically told me and have told others (that I overheard or read) that they are glad they won't have to go through the tribulation because they will be taken away first. And that kind of perspective concerns me in regards to THEM, but not YOU. Do you understand what I am telling you?

 

[WPM]

Your asking me to show you where Daniel fits in with your wacky theology? I can't do that. If you want to discuss what Daniel says, we can do that, but you demanding that everything be in the one verse...is stupid.

GB.

You missed what I was asking again.

 

[WPM]

On the other hand, by saying no man knows the day or hour, Jesus is indicating to His disciples, who understood Jewish idiomatic language
that He was returning during the feast of trumpets or Rosh Hashana; The Head of the year.

The way it would begin is those who were watching would blow the trumpet when the new moon was sighted, which could have been on the 29th day or the 30th day of the month, thus the saying no man knows the day or the hour.




JLB

Seriously? Where does Scripture teach that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. But he says that of Posttribbers.

Yes, it seems that way, which would be rather hypocritical.

He did indicate while going through his interpretation of 1 Thess 5 that post-tribbers are included among the ones who are "asleep" that Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 5:1-9. Which would then mean that we would experience God's wrath in the form of "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" when Jesus returns since Paul was talking about those who are spiritually asleep and in spiritual darkness as being the ones whose God's wrath will come down upon.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then why did you say that pretribbers should worry about persecution and tribulation?

How many times do I need to explain this to you? And in the times when I've explained this to you already I made it clear that I'm only talking about SOME pretribbers. Okay?

Isn't that an odd thing to say from a man who knows that we only fear God and nothing else. To die is to gain! Nevertheless, ther is still work to be done and he needs my boots on the ground for now.

If you already know that we dont have a spirit of fear then why say we should fear persecution & Tribulation? That does not compute.

You and I don't have a spirit of fear. But, some Christians do. And for SOME of them (NOT YOU), it is influenced by their pre-trib belief. I don't know why I have to explain this over and over to you. Are you really reading everything I'm saying?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I dont speak for all pretribbers.

Great to see you realize that.

I speak what I know. Myself.

Uh huh. I noticed. I should be able to talk about how other pre-tribbers think, though, right? I think so.

And I agree with those you read about, I'm glad we'll be gone before that happens! It says all through scripture that we shall suffer and be persecuted and have many tribulations in the world, but fear not for He has overcome the world.

Do you agree with those who are glad about that because they are afraid of persecution and tribulation? No, right? But, those are the people I'm talking about. Okay? This should not be hard to understand. It's not all about you. Not all pre-tribbers think exactly the same.

But Suffering and tribulations of life which are common to man is not the same thing s as great tribulation.

It certainly can be. Tell this to those suffering with severe chronic pain or illnesses or those in other countries who face severe persecution every day for their faith, as has been the case for the past almost 2,000 years.

 

[MA2444]

We are not obsessed, we like to promote the truth. Is there something wrong with that? Pretrib can be a dangerous teaching as it can lead people into a false sense of security and make them think they don't need to worry about persecution or tribulation because they will be taken off the earth before it happens. I'm not saying you think that way, I'm saying it can lead some to think that way and that is why this topic is important to me. And we do not tell you to stop watching, so please stop making things up. That isn't helpful.

LOL. The reasons I gave are legitimate in relation to SOME pre-tribs such as ones I have talked to before. Understand, bro? Do you speak for all pre-tribbers? No, you do not. Understand, big man? I made it clear that what I was saying does NOT apply to you because you understand that all Christians go through persecution and tribulation at some point regardless of when the rapture occurs.

Why, oh why, do you ask me things like this? Did I say that we have anything to fear? No, right. So, you are asking me if I need more scriptures to show me what I already believe?

You did say that promoting posttrib was necessary because it creates a false sense of security and that pretribbers should be worried about persecution and Tribulation. You said " Pretrib can be a dangerous teaching as it can lead people into a false sense of security and make them think they don't need to worry about persecution or tribulation because they will be taken off the earth before it happens.

So how am I to take that? Do I need to worry or not? You clearly indicate yes. And dont start backtracking and say you wer talking about all other pretribbers except me! Lol! Come on Dude! So you made a bad statement. Big deal. Admit it and go on. We dont have to worry. We will be saved from the wrath. He said so. We'll be in our rooms with the door closed. If we're watching for Him and expecting Him and are about His work when He shows up...we get to go!

 

[MA2444]

I'm not pre-trib. What are you talking about? I'm supposed to be the one telling you that you're wrong about that.

You got me on that one. That was my typo, lol. I meant after the tribulation!

 

[MA2444]

Uh huh. I noticed. I should be able to talk about how other pre-tribbers think, though, right? I think so.

Will you stop that? That's lame brother. Me and you was talking to each other. And you know it. Is that some sort of defensive mechanism for you or something? Talking obtuse and stupidly. You are only now trying to say you were talking about everyone else.

So does that mean you're asking everyone else about the pretrib rapture? Or me? Or what? You see what that sort of (feminine) statement does to a conversation. I know durn well what we was talking about and to. Please dont play games. So you was wrong once. So what? I've been wrong before too.

Or what are you, a teacher without the ability to learn yourself? Be a man and just say, ok I was wrong about that. Not the lame woman talk! Please! Not That! And we can move on. Big. Deal. There's muchmore to discuss than that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You did say that promoting posttrib was necessary because it creates a false sense of security and that pretribbers should be worried about persecution and Tribulation.

And I said several times now that I was only talking about SOME pretribbers and NOT you and I explained the perspective that SOME pretribbers have, but NOT YOU. Is this hard for you to understand? I think I'm speaking plainly here.

You said " Pretrib can be a dangerous teaching as it can lead people into a false sense of security and make them think they don't need to worry about persecution or tribulation because they will be taken off the earth before it happens.

So how am I to take that?

That I'm saying it CAN be a dangerous teaching, but not necessarily. Based on what you've said, it's not for you. But, what about someone who thinks they can never be persecuted or experience tribulation because they think they will be raptured before it can happen to them? Can you see how that kind of perspective can be a problem? If someone thinks they can't go through persecution but then finds themselves going through it, they will not be prepared for it, right? Do you see what I'm saying? And, again, I'm not saying this applies to you in particular.

Do I need to worry or not?

No. You have the right perspective. You've gone through some trials and tribulations already, so you know it can happen again and you're not assuming you will be raptured before it happens again.

You clearly indicate yes.

Not in YOUR case. My goodness, man. Are you playing a practical joke on me here? How many times do I have to tell you that I'm not talking about YOU, but about OTHER pre-tribbers before you will believe me? A thousand times? LOL. Come on.

And dont start backtracking and say you wer talking about all other pretribbers except me! Lol! Come on Dude!

What in the world? That's exactly what I've been saying. It's not backtracking when that's what I've been saying all along. Why do you think that all pre-tribbers are exactly like you in how they look at things? That's not the case.

If you are going to talk to me like this and not accept what I'm telling you when I explain what I mean, then we're done. So, do you plan on continuing to do this?

So you made a bad statement. Big deal. Admit it and go on.

But, I didn't. It's absolutely true that some pre-tribbers are afraid of persecution and tribulation because I've seen that firsthand. And others, like you, are not. That is true. You saying otherwise is offensive as if you think I'm making this up which I'm not.

We dont have to worry. We will be saved from the wrath. He said so. We'll be in our rooms with the door closed. If we're watching for Him and expecting Him and are about His work when He shows up...we get to go!

All of us, whether pre-trib or post-trib, believe we will be saved from His wrath. I've been talking about persecution in case you didn't notice. Some pre-tribbers think they will not have to go through persecution and will be raptured first. Do you think that's a good perspective for someone to have?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Will you stop that? That's lame brother.

Yes, I will stop that. This is my last post to you and I promise you that. We're done. You not accepting what I'm saying even though it's true is lame. I'm done with that.

Me and you was talking to each other. And you know it. Is that some sort of defensive mechanism for you or something? Talking obtuse and stupidly. You are only now trying to say you were talking about everyone else.

You are such a child. You are a joke. I answered your question in a general sense about pre-tribbers in general. What is wrong with that? Are you just a narcissist who thinks everything is about you? That's apparently the case. So, I will leave you to talk to yourself since you are so obsessed with yourself.

So does that mean you're asking everyone else about the pretrib rapture? Or me? Or what? You see what that sort of (feminine) statement does to a conversation. I know durn well what we was talking about and to. Please dont play games. So you was wrong once. So what? I've been wrong before too.

I wasn't talking about you. If you're going to call me a liar and act like you are God and are my judge, then I don't need that. I tried having a civil, adult discussion with you and you are just not capable of it. You are an immature child and a fake tough guy who needs to grow up.

Or what are you, a teacher without the ability to learn yourself? Be a man and just say, ok I was wrong about that. Not the lame woman talk! Please! Not That! And we can move on. Big. Deal. There's muchmore to discuss than that.

If you want to act like a clown, then join the circus. I won't be joining you there.

 

[WPM]

Yes, I will stop that. This is my last post to you and I promise you that. We're done. You not accepting what I'm saying even though it's true is lame. I'm done with that. Goodbye.


You are such a child. You are a joke. I answered your question in a general sense about pre-tribbers in general. What is wrong with that? Are you just a narcissist who thinks everything is about you? That's apparently the case. So, I will leave you to talk to yourself since you are so obsessed with yourself.


I wasn't talking about you. If you're going to call me a liar and act like you are God and are my judge, then I don't need that. I tried having a civil, adult discussion with you and you are just not capable of it. You are an immature child who needs to grow up.


If you want to act like a clown, then join the circus. I won't be joining you there.

Someone should report these these guys to their parents. There should be more online monitoring.

They wallow in mud slinging. That is because they have not one single prooftext.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Someone should report these these guys to their parents. There should be more online monitoring.

They wallow in mud slinging. That is because they have not one single prooftext.

Yep. They try to distract us with personal insults because they know that's all they have. Everyone can see that. If you try to get them to actually exegete scripture, you see what happens if they even try. It's embarrassing for them. No wonder they rarely even try to do it.