"Not my God. Not my Jesus."

[marks]

So, if two people pray to this God, repent before this God, render their will to this God, serve this Good, their God is the same.

And so man defines who God is, and God's revelation is ignored. There you have it. When I was in a 12 step group oh so many years ago, I knew a man who's god he called his "higher carrot". The Israelites were guilty of praying to carved and gilded blocks of wood.

I truly pray God show you the error in this.

Much love!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Life in Christ is by being baptized into His death and resurrection, and being recreated according to His image.

If a person decides not to get baptized (does not follow the ritual o submerging into water) is that person following a different Jesus, and worshipping a different God?

 

[marks]

If a person decides not to get baptized (does not follow the ritual o submerging into water) is that person following a different Jesus, and worshipping a different God?

You keep looking at what people do, and what people think, while ignoring what the one True God says both about Himself and all other so-called gods.

Go to the Bible, and accept what God says, and then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

Much love!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yea, I'm seeing that also.

Our friend likes to play god by playing word games; if we define words the way we want, then anything can mean anything.

Please indicate where and when I'm playing word games, so that I can stop doing that.
I remember you once indicated that by saying that "son" had at least two meanings, I was playing with words.
That is not a word game. It is absolutely compatible with logic.

I encourage you to remember what we discussed about the Principle of Non-Contradiction.
Two opposite things cannot exist at the same time in the same manner.

If I say at the same time "I have a biological son" and "I don't have a biological son", I am falling in a contradition.
But if if I say at the same time "I have a son" and "I don't have a son", I am not falling in a contradiction. In fact, we do it everyday, and the Bible does it often.

Another example is to claim there are no essential differences.

An essential difference is a difference that would make God a non-God.
If I tell you that my god is mortal, or evil, or somewhat fool, or unfair, or merciless, then I am worshipping another god.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You keep looking at what people do,

Well, you were the one who said that life in Christ is by being "baptized". This is something people do.

You invite me to go to the Bible. I accept your invitation. I have read and reflected on the Bible several times. Every day over the last years.
Now let me make you a respectful invitation:
I invite you to observe what you do. If the Bible does not change the way we behave, the Bible and theology lacks any value at all.

In my posts, I resort over and over to scenarios of real life. And so far, I have found not forum members (with the probable exception of @Aunty Jane in at least one post) who dare to apply their theological thinking to such situations.
A theology that cannot be applied, is useless, and most likely false.

Here is my challenge, marks.
These three men are a catholic bishop, a Baha'i young entrepreneur and a Jew professor. The three have sinned, having spread a rumor that ruined the reputation of an innocent lady. The three have confessed their sin publicly, they have come to the lady to confess their sin. The three are in pain and sincerely repented before God.

Which of the three is being heard by the Only and True God? Will God forgive only the man who has the right theology about Him?

 

[marks]

Please indicate where and when I'm playing word games, so that I can stop doing that.
I remember you once indicated that by saying that "son" had at least two meanings, I was playing with words.
That is not a word game. It is absolutely compatible with logic.

I encourage you to remember what we discussed about the Principle of Non-Contradiction.
Two opposite things cannot exist at the same time in the same manner.

If I say at the same time "I have a biological son" and "I don't have a biological son", I am falling in a contradition.
But if if I say at the same time "I have a son" and "I don't have a son", I am not falling in a contradiction. In fact, we do it everyday, and the Bible does it often.


An essential difference is a difference that would make God a non-God.
If I tell you that my god is mortal, or evil, or somewhat fool, or unfair, or merciless, then I am worshipping another god.

And if the Christian tells you that God the Father has begotten God the Son, and the Muslim tells you that God neither begets nor is begotten, that is a contradiction. The one that is blue is not the one that is green.

Now, you can start to redefine terms - but what shade of blue? What shade of green? But that will not bring you to truth.

Much love!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

And if the Christian tells you that God the Father has begotten God the Son, and the Muslim tells you that God neither begets nor is begotten, that is a contradiction. The one that is blue is not the one that is green.

No, because as I have demostrated clearly, "son" has more than one meaning.
If you or @Wrangler can deny that "son" has more than one meaning, please present your argument.

I insist: the Bible often uses the same term in more than one sense. You can't deny this if you have studied your Bible.
One quick example is the term "world", but there are dozens of them:

Does God love the world? If He does, why does He ask us not to love the world?

1. World = humanity
2. World = The sinful aspects of humanity

 

[marks]

Well, you were the one who said that life in Christ is by being "baptized". This is something people do.

You've misrepresented my words.

Life in Christ is by being baptized into His death and resurrection, and being recreated according to His image.

Can you explain to me the difference, and what each of them mean?

Much love!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

And so man defines who God is, and God's revelation is ignored.

People have thousands of interpretations about God's revelation.
Do you think you are 100% correct in your theology, marks?
I don't think I am 100% correct... and I believe that I am too limited and too biased to detect most of my mistakes.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You've misrepresented my words.


Can you explain to me the difference, and what each of them mean?

Much love!

Then I apologize, my brother.
I thought you were talking about the baptism as a ritual.
If you are talking about a spiritual new birth into the life of Christ, which is what Paul calls to be resurrected in Christ, then I agree with you.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

“Not my God. Not my Jesus.” -> evangelism opportunity

Hi, my dear friend.
Yes, I would love to see our friends to see this as an opportunity to present and defend the gospel according to our own views and experiences.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If you observe compassion and mercy from Jihadi followers of Islam, you aren’t paying attention. Islam: The Politically Incorrect Truth

They have been the bane of civilization since their inception 1400 years ago! As President George W Bush said, it is a fight FOR civilization.

I was taking about God's mercy towards you and me.
You and me, Wrangler, as I assume that both of us show mercy to our debtors.

We are not talking about Jihadi terrorists or supporters of terrorism, who do not show mercy of others, and cannot expect, therefore, mercy from God.

 

[Matthias]

Hi, my dear friend.
Yes, I would love to see our friends to see this as an opportunity to present and defend the gospel according to our own views and experiences.

Hornets don’t evangelize, and you’ve stirred up a hornet’s nest.

Jesus preached the gospel. That’s not what they’re doing. Not even close.

 

[Jesusfollower]

And if the Christian tells you that God the Father has begotten God the Son, and the Muslim tells you that God neither begets nor is begotten, that is a contradiction. The one that is blue is not the one that is green.

Now, you can start to redefine terms - but what shade of blue? What shade of green? But that will not bring you to truth.

Much love!

Only God brings people to the truth according to his will.

John 14:6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
John 16:13 "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."
1 Peter 2:9: "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."
John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you."

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Exactly…and once it became obvious, you would withdraw from them.
They would manifest themselves soon enough…and God would see to it that they did.

I agree. That's why we shouldn't consider that a person is worshipping a false god, if they are producing the fruits of the Spirit, regardless of their religion. Do you agree?

Any student of Bible history knows that the children of satan all have blood on their hands.
Christ’s disciples were not to be like the people of the nations, engrossed in political conflicts and being the victims of bad governmental decisions….who is the ruler of this world? (1 John 5:19) Isn’t that why we were told to be “NO PART” of that world? (John 17:16; 18:36)

Aunty

The term "world" has at least 2 distinct meanings in the Bible.
World = the life of the flesh, the sinful behaviour of men
World = humanity

When 1 John 5:19 speaks about the "ruler of this world", he is referring to the ruler of all the sinful behavior of men. Obviously, men who are enslaved by their vices, fears and sins, are not ruled by God. Do you agree?

God loves the world (John 3:16). We love the world and that's why Jesus ask us to be the salt of the earth, the light of the world.
We love humanity. We love every good thing about humanity: science, arts, institutions, economy, politics, sports, entertainment.
Every good gift comes from God. (James 1:17)

This is why Jehovah Witnesses, by excelling in civil order, science, arts, businesses, social welfare, finances, entertainment, and by influencing with governments and churches, become the salt of the earth and the light of the world.

An honest person will not want to fuse false gods with the only true one.

I agree. Such fusion, in fact, would be impossible in practice. Jesus said it is impossible to serve two lords. Do you agree?
So, if you see a Muslim living the life of Christ, it is because this Muslim is serving only one god, the Only True God. He could not be serving Beelzebub and Allah at the same time.

 

[marks]

Only God brings people to the truth according to his will.

John 14:6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
John 16:13 "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."
1 Peter 2:9: "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."
John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you."

Amen! And may that truth be known, even by those who presently work against it!

Much love!

 

[Jesusfollower]

No, because as I have demostrated clearly, "son" has more than one meaning.
If you or @Wrangler can deny that "son" has more than one meaning, please present your argument.

I insist: the Bible often uses the same term in more than one sense. You can't deny this if you have studied your Bible.
One quick example is the term "world", but there are dozens of them:

Does God love the world? If He does, why does He ask us not to love the world?

1. World = humanity
2. World = The sinful aspects of humanity

What about you Pancho, provide proof the word Son applied to Jesus in the proper context means something else than the son of God? can you do that? you cannot, so do not try to wiggle out of it, here is what the texts say clearly;

The term "Son" applied to Jesus in the proper context does indeed refer to Him being the Son of God. Throughout the New Testament, especially in the Gospels and the writings of the apostles, Jesus is consistently referred to as the Son of God. Here are some key points and verses that affirm this:

Son of God in the Gospels:
In the Gospels, such as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Jesus is frequently identified and acknowledged as the Son of God by various individuals and even by demons (Matthew 14:33, Mark 1:1, Luke 1:35, John 20:31).
Jesus' Own Testimony:
Jesus Himself refers to God as His Father and identifies Himself as the Son of God. For example, in John 10:36, Jesus says, "what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God’s Son'?” Here, Jesus directly claims to be the Son of God.
Divine Acknowledgment:
At Jesus' baptism and transfiguration, God the Father audibly affirms Jesus as His Son (Matthew 3:17, Matthew 17:5). This divine acknowledgment underscores Jesus' identity as the Son of God.
Apostolic Teaching:
The apostles, who were witnesses of Jesus' life, teachings, death, and resurrection, consistently teach and proclaim Jesus as the Son of God in their writings. For example, in Acts 9:20, immediately after his conversion, Saul began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.
Theological Significance:
The title "Son of God" carries profound theological significance in Christian doctrine, affirming Jesus' unique relationship with God the Father. It denotes Jesus' divine nature, equality with God, and His role as the Messiah and Savior of humanity (John 3:16-18, Hebrews 1:1-3).
When Jesus is referred to as the Son in the context of the Bible, it overwhelmingly means that He is the Son of God. This title demonstrates His divine nature, unique relationship with God the Father, and His role in God's plan of salvation. The New Testament consistently presents Jesus as the Son of God, and this understanding is foundational to Christian belief about Jesus Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

What about you Pancho, provide proof the word Son applied to Jesus in the proper context means something else than the son of God? can you do that?

In different inspired books, the term "son" is used differently.
For example, in Job 1:6, we read: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and the Adversary also came among them.

A Muslim would say that the angels or messengers who presented themselves before the Lord, including Satan, were not literally sons of God, although they are called "sons of God" in the text.
So, is an angel (eg, Gabriel) a son of God? Yes and no. Is Satan a son of God? Yes and no.
The Law of Non-Contradiction is not being violated, @Wrangler.

So, when in the Holy Quran God states that He has not "begotten a son", God is talking against the superstitious idea that had extended among some Christians, mainly opponents of Ebionite Christians, who insisted in that God had shared his nature such as a father shares its nature with his son. That's all.

Remember: we are not discussing doctrines here. We are discussing whether Allah is the same God that YHWH and the Father of Jesus.
Some people have argued that they can't be the same because Allah has no son and YHWH has a son. I have demonstrated that God has and does not have a son, depending on the meaning of "son".

 

[Jesusfollower]

In different inspired books, the term "son" is used differently.
For example, in Job 1:6, we read: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and the Adversary also came among them.

A Muslim would say that the angels or messengers who presented themselves before the Lord, including Satan, were not literally sons of God, although they are called "sons of God" in the text.
So, is an angel (eg, Gabriel) a son of God? Yes and no. Is Satan a son of God? Yes and no.
The Law of Non-Contradiction is not being violated, @Wrangler.

So, when in the Holy Quran God states that He has not "begotten a son", God is talking against the superstitious idea that had extended among some Christians, mainly opponents of Ebionite Christians, who insisted in that God had shared his nature such as a father shares its nature with his son. That's all.

Remember: we are not discussing doctrines here. We are discussing whether Allah is the same God that YHWH and the Father of Jesus.
Some people have argued that they can't be the same because Allah has no son and YHWH has a son. I have demonstrated that God has and does not have a son, depending on the meaning of "son".

Like I said in the proper context about Jesus, the verse you point to is not about Jesus, know also that I have read the Quran and know about what you mention, I have Muslim friends.

Then if we have supposedly the same God as You claim but I know we do not, how can you explain the differences. the bible says Jesus is the son of GOD and was witnessed by man, many and they left their testimony, the Quran says Jesus is not by the word of one person only.

I have quoted to you proper scripture in the proper context, and have proved my point that Jesus IS the Son of God. what you have cited is different entirely and not related to the subject of this discussion, Jesus being the Son of God.

You have failed to make your point.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Israelites were guilty of praying to carved and gilded blocks of wood.

It's good that you mention the prayer to carved and gilded blocks of wood.
In the VII century, while Christians were praying to wooden statues, and worshipping a loaf of bread they thought to be the body of Christ, God raised Mohammed to remind the nations, as emphatically as possible, that God is spirit and cannot dwell in buildings nor be represented in statues or paintings.

Please look at the image below. Which of the two ladies has received the revelation of God through Mohammed?

The God that you and I worship, which dwells in unapproachable light (1 Timothy 6:16) , who cannot be contained by heavens and earth, nor represented in any way, revealed Himself that way before Christ as Ahura Mazda, and after Christ through Islam as Alláh.

Praise be to God, the Only One, the Munificent, The Most Manifest, the Most Hidden, The Beautiful, The Free, The Ocean of Mercy.