The 144,000 before God at the end.

[ewq1938]

The Earth will be decimated by plagues. I guess all of the Saints are going to be ordered to become preppers?

Again, zero evidence of God's wrath killing any of the saints and frankly the idea is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Truther]

Again, zero evidence of God's wrath killing any of the saints and frankly the idea is beyond ridiculous.

Right. This is why the catching away is prior to the GT

 

[Brakelite]

The angel in revelation 14 tells those that are not going to take the mark when presented to them to go ahead and prepare to die. Not a good place to be.

I agree that a death penalty is pronounced globally against those who refuse the mark. I also believe that the angst and bitter hatred against those dissenters will be so intense, that once the death penalty is pronounced against them, it will actually be the general public who will attempt to carry it out. They will fall. God will not allow His final church on the planet to be wiped out when nothing could possibly be gained by it.

 

[Truther]

I agree that a death penalty is pronounced globally against those who refuse the mark. I also believe that the angst and bitter hatred against those dissenters will be so intense, that once the death penalty is pronounced against them, it will actually be the general public who will attempt to carry it out. They will fall. God will not allow His final church on the planet to be wiped out when nothing could possibly be gained by it.

The catching away is well before the plagues. The saints are already in heaven in Rev 19 at the supper. They return to earth later.
If you’re still here, yikes.

 

[Keraz]

The catching away is well before the plagues. The saints are already in heaven in Rev 19 at the supper. They return to earth later.
If you’re still here, yikes.

As there is not anywhere in scripture a Prophecy saying the Lord will take His people to heaven, then your belief is wrong.

What we are plainly told is that the Christian peoples are divided into 2 groups; as per Daniel 11:32 and noted in Zechariah 14:2b
The faithful group will be transported to a place of safety, Revelation 12:14 and those who violated the Covenant must remain under the control of the beast. Revelation 12:17

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb, does not happen until Jesus Returns.

 

[Truther]

As there is not anywhere in scripture a Prophecy saying the Lord will take His people to heaven, then your belief is wrong.
What we are plainly told is that the Christian peoples are divided into 2 groups; as per Daniel 11:32 and noted in Zechariah 14:2b
The faithful group will be transported to a place of safety, Revelation 12:14 and those who violated the Covenant must remain under the control of the beast. Revelation 12:17
The Marriage Supper of the Lamb, does not happen until Jesus Returns.

Let's see...

Verse 7...
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God........


Verse 11...
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


...you got verses 7-9 after verses 11-15.

Bad case of scriptural dyslexia.

 

[ewq1938]

Right. This is why the catching away is prior to the GT

The rapture happens after the GT not before it according to Paul and Jesus.

 

[Truther]

The rapture happens after the GT not before it according to Paul and Jesus.

No, as a matter of fact, Matthew 25 also depicts the rapture. It defines the entire church as being asleep. That doesn’t look like they’re crying crying out for mercy. Nobody is going to sleep through the tribulation.

 

[ewq1938]

No, as a matter of fact, Matthew 25 also depicts the rapture. It defines the entire church as being asleep. That doesn’t look like they’re crying crying out for mercy. Nobody is going to sleep through the tribulation.

You are conflating details in a parable with details of real life. The church is not sleeping with oil lamps next to them in the trib.

The parable is at night, with some buying and selling attempted so it represents a time during the trib and all are still there so no rapture before the trib.

 

[Truther]

You are conflating details in a parable with details of real life. The church is not sleeping with oil lamps next to them in the trib.

The parable is at night, with some buying and selling attempted so it represents a time during the trib and all are still there so no rapture before the trib.

The parable is showing that the church is not ready. All 10 asleep. However, half of them have the oil which is represent the Holy Ghost. Those that have the Holy Ghost and per Acts 2:38 will be taken. That is why you must obey Acts 2:38 and… Walk in the Spirit.

 

[Keraz]

Let's see...

If you make the Marriage Supper before the glorious Return, then either we are removed to where it will take place, or Jesus comes secretly before Rev 19:11. Botho of those scenarios are never Prophesied.
Therefore, the description in Rev 19:7-9, is just the preparation for what will happen after Jesus Returns. Which makes more sense and is logical.

 

[Truther]

If you make the Marriage Supper before the glorious Return, then either we are removed to where it will take place, or Jesus comes secretly before Rev 19:11. Botho of those scenarios are never Prophesied.
Therefore, the description in Rev 19:7-9, is just the preparation for what will happen after Jesus Returns. Which makes more sense and is logical.

The catching away happens before the great tribulation. This is why you find the marriage supper before the second coming of Jesus. The Saints are in heaven and after the marriage supper is consummated then Christ returns. He does not do the marriage supper on earth No way Jose.

 

[Timtofly]

I agree that a death penalty is pronounced globally against those who refuse the mark. I also believe that the angst and bitter hatred against those dissenters will be so intense, that once the death penalty is pronounced against them, it will actually be the general public who will attempt to carry it out. They will fall. God will not allow His final church on the planet to be wiped out when nothing could possibly be gained by it.

You have to be beheaded or take the mark. There is no third option. Being beheaded is the act of Salvation during Satan's 8th Kingdom controlling the entire earth with the Abomination of Desolation. During these 42 months, God will not place a mark on those who chop their heads off. That is one's final choice after the Second Coming and final harvest.

 

[Keraz]

The catching away happens before the great tribulation. This is why you find the marriage supper before the second coming of Jesus. The Saints are in heaven and after the marriage supper is consummated then Christ returns. He does not do the marriage supper on earth No way Jose.

If you mean the 'catching away' in 1 Thess 4:17, then your error is glaringly apparent.
That transportation occurs when Jesus Returns, as verse 16 says.....when the Lord descends from heaven......

So Jose; give me the scripture which clearly says there will be living saints in heaven.

 

[Davy]

Compared the two passages. It goes from catching away to thief to drunken servant in both passages. If you would like, I will post it for you when I get on the computer. This way, I will highlight the order of both passages. Seriously, it’ll blow your mind.

You compared what... two passages?

I was proclaiming God's Word of what Lord Jesus taught in His Olivet discourse about the time of His future return and gathering of His Church, which those gathering events in His Olivet discourse He gave are the 'same' events that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 about the future gathering of His Church.

 

[Davy]

And such was beautifully fulfilled when Israel rejected their Messiah and through their rejection prompted the gospel to be carried to the gentiles.
KJV Acts 13:46-47
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

And what was the result of this rejection by Israel of their God in killing Him?
KJV Acts 6:7
7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

And why was all this necessary,? I don't mean the preaching of the gospel of course, but why the Jews first? Why was it that...
KJV Acts 13:46
It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you...?

in order to fulfil Daniel 9. 70 weeks were appointed as a time of particular probationary period for Israel to get their act together. The Messiah came at the appointed time.
69 weeks, 483 years from 457BC to 27AD was the precise time of Jesus's baptism and His anointing by the holy Spirit for ministry. That left one prophetic week. 7 years, during which time the gospel of salvation through their Messiah was presented first by Jesus personally to the time of His death in 31AD, them for 3 1/2 years by the apostles. It was about 34SD that Stephen was sinned. His speech was an arraignment against the rulers of the nation, that speech was the prophet's last call to repentance before the 70 weeks was fulfilled. The rulers shut their ears and rushed upon Stephen to kill him. In from the nation that single act by the nation's rulers, they shut off the kingdom of God from the nation. It did not shut off the kingdom of the kingdom or the gospel from any individual of that nation. But the church became God's chosen vehicle for proclaiming the gospel to the end of the world, and thus was prophecy fulfilled.
View attachment 47432

You cannot try and hide your false idea that the final 70th week of Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled by Christ's Ministry at His 1st coming, no matter how much ad lib Scripture you post in attempting to support such a false idea.

The final 70th week, called "one week" (or one seven) in the Daniel 9:27 verse is still yet to be fulfilled. And it will ONLY be fulfilled by the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah in Jerusalem at the very END of this world for the coming future "great tribulation".

 

[Davy]

Here is proof that the rapture is pre trib...


37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

That is NOT about a pre-trib rapture.

1. Jesus was merely showing how at the time of Noah, he and his family were sealed by God inside the ark and that was how they were protected by God to go through... the flood. The ark never left the flood, but SURVIVED through it, thus showing the Church will also go through the "great tribulation" sealed by Christ, and thus go through... the tribulation, and survive it. Jesus even used the idea of waters as a flood coming out of the serpent's mouth as a symbol for the future tribulation while linked... to the flood waters of Noah's day! (see Rev.12).

2. Per Luke 17:36 with Jesus' answer when His disciples asked Him 'where'... those TAKEN would be taken to, Jesus shows the DECEIVED are the TAKEN ones, and is NOT Christ's Church! Your pre-trib rapture teachers are lying to you about the 1st one 'taken'. That's even what Jesus showed about those outside Noah's ark when the flood came; it TOOK them all away! So you aren't listening to Lord Jesus, you are listening to men.

3. When Jesus was speaking of the 'goodman' of the house that remains 'watching' like He commanded, it means that goodman will KNOW WHEN the thief tries to break in. That is why Lord Jesus commanded His servants to WATCH. And then Jesus said the watchman WILL BE BLESSED when He returns and finds him watching, and giving meat in due season, i.e., remain working in the field with the meat of God's Word, waiting for Christ's coming after the tribulation.

4. Per 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul showed how at the end the deceived will be proclaiming, "Peace and safety", because they will be deceived by the false-Messiah that comes first to 'play' Christ. Revelation 13 shows that coming false-Messiah will work miracles to deceive all nations, end all wars, etc. In the Book of Daniel, that Antichrist-false Messiah is to destroy using PEACE. That is "great tribulation" time when that false-Messiah is to appear and do that.

Lord Jesus Christ comes afterwards to destroy that false-Messiah, which Apostle Paul also showed in 2 Thessalonians 2. That means Jesus comes POST-TRIB to gather His Church, not pre-trib.


5. Because Lord Jesus proclaimed His future return will be AFTER THE TRIBULATION in Matthew 24:29-31, you cannot use those above Scriptures to CONTRADICT what He said with a FALSE pre-trib rapture teaching.

6. The above Biblical FACTS are available to any disciple of Jesus Christ that instead of listening to false prophets that created man's false pre-trib rapture that serves the devil, instead get into God's Word and study, and don't just believe those false prophets.

 

[Davy]

Again, zero evidence of God's wrath killing any of the saints and frankly the idea is beyond ridiculous.

Sure is ridiculous, that is for anyone that is a disciple of Jesus Christ that studies His Word of Truth.

For someone like Truther to believe on man's false pre-trib rapture, they have to believe what men say instead of what Jesus says in His Word. That is why they will push Bible Scripture that has nothing to do with a secret pre-trib rapture, in hopes that the gullible won't bother to verify it in God's Word for themselves, but will just believe them hook line and sinker.

 

[Davy]

Right. This is why the catching away is prior to the GT

You haven't proven that pre-trib rapture is God's Word, so I wouldn't get haughty.

Since you at present believe that false pre-trib rapture doctrine from men, it means you will be subject to being like a dead "carcase" taken to where the fowls will dine upon you. That was Jesus' answer about the 1st one 'taken' in Luke 17:36-37. Here is the Matthew 24:28 version of Jesus' answer...

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV


Luke 17:36-37
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV

If you want to be a DEAD CARCASE gathered to where those FOWLS will sup on you, fine, then go to, stay deceived by those false prophets you listen to. Or... you can listen to Lord Jesus' warning in His Word about that, and STAY in the field working for Him and waiting for HIS future return to gather us.

 

[Davy]

No, as a matter of fact, Matthew 25 also depicts the rapture. It defines the entire church as being asleep. That doesn’t look like they’re crying crying out for mercy. Nobody is going to sleep through the tribulation.

I wonder about your reading comprehension.
It appears that you fail to understand about metaphors and analogies that occurs in all... languages. That was a subject even in grammar school English class. God uses that method of symbolic analogy a whole lot in His Word.

The asleep metaphor Jesus was using in Matthew 25 is a metaphor for deception about the time of the end, about the 11th hour which represents the great trib that happens just prior to His future return at symbolic MIDNIGHT.

Matt 25:6
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
KJV

Like Jesus' parable of the laborers of the vineyard of Matthew 20, those who were hired last and worked only "one hour" got the same pay as those who had worked all day. That "one hour" is a symbol for the "great tribulation" time, the last hour of this present world.

Same symbol for that final "one hour" is also used for when the ten kings of Rev.17 come to power and reign "one hour" with the beast (i.e, beast king). Jesus also uses that "one hour" idea for Peter in Matthew 26 that could he not 'watch' for "one hour", a reference for us too, about Jesus' warning to 'watch' the SIGNS He gave us in His Olivet discourse of events leading up to His future return. In Revelation 3, Jesus tells the Church of Philadelphia He would keep them from the "hour of temptation", pointing to their not being deceived during the time of "great tribulation" at the end of this world. His elect will not... be tempted by the coming false-Messiah who will claim to be Christ while deceiving the whole world with the great signs and miracles he will do.

So since Matthew 25 shows Jesus coming at symbolic MIDNIGHT, then it means those 10 virgins are symbolically asleep going through the great trib that is on the 11th HOUR.

God makes His Own analogies in His Word. Man makes his own that are OUTSIDE of His Word, and that is definitely what man's false pre-trib rapture doctrine does.