If you say BahaUllah is the ultimate prophet, you are not a Christian.
"Not my God. Not my Jesus."
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
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Hi Marks.
This is an apologetics subforum. A place where you can rehearse your apologetic skills. So, please take advantage of the opportunity.
Apologetics means that you present arguments to defend a thesis, and listen and refute other people's arguments.
I have stated my purpose in this Forum, and I thank you for the opportunity to state it again.
I come to build bridges among Christians from different views, and between Christians and non-Christians.
Recognizing that the God of Muslims is your God, and that the Jesus of @Aunty Jane is your Jesus, is an important first step.
If I accept to become a Christian, would that mean that I will believe that @Aunty Jane and millions of Jews, Muslims, Baha'is and Sikhs deserve to burn in hell for ever because they worship a false God?
Would that be the implication of coming to Jesus Christ, marks?
Christians have a God with name: Jehovah, and his Son is Jesus, the Christ Jehovah sent to humans.
Whatever you think is irrelevant. Sorry for my honesty. You have nothing to teach us; we are not part of your religion.
Col. 2:8 Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ.
Whatever you think is irrelevant. Sorry for my honesty. You have nothing to teach us; we are not part of your religion.
Col. 2:8 Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ.
Yes, I agree.
But a false god is not a god. It cannot set you free from your past lifestyle. It cannot lead you to bear good fruits. Do you agree with me?
Dear friends:
When the Bible says that Satan can come as an angel of light, it doesn't mean that he can do the works of the Holy Spirit (that would be blasphemous against the Holy Spirit).
Such demoniac "light" refers to its language, eloquence, wealth, charm, physical beauty, physical strength, intellect, knowledge of the Scriptures, supernatural "powers", and all kind of things that are not essential to the works of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said that it is impossible (I repeat: impossible. Let me repeat it again: impossible) for a good tree bear bad fruits and viceversa
And I've responded to this. Rather than refute my assertions, that the Bible is true, and Jesus is Who the Bible says He is. I've given you the Scriptures which show Jesus is the only way to God, that there are "false Jesus's", that there are false gospels, and our necessity that we are trusting the true Gospel.
Rather than refute this, you ask me to discard this. I'm not interested in discarding truth. Show me that the Bible isn't true. Or show me that these passages I've posted mean something other than what they mean.
This IS apologetic.
Into delusion. You've not given me any reason to think they are the same person. Only that you would like for us to think it's so.
We pray, therefore we pray to the same God? Non-sequitor.
You do better to look to yourself. According to the Bible, all are sinners, condemned.
Romans 3:9-12 KJV
9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:19 KJV
19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Romans 2:3-12 KJV
3) And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9) Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11) For there is no respect of persons with God.
12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
There is salvation in Jesus alone, and that does not mean a "Jesus" of your own making.
Much love!
Many have been deceived. Do you agree?
What does it mean that he comes like minister of righteousness? Isn't it that it looks like the real thing? So how do you know for sure? Because you have a good opinion about yourself, formed by your perceptions of yourself? I would sooner stick tightly to the Biblical definitions.
Salvation is in Jesus alone, and the Bible tells us about Jesus. Not all who claim truth are true.
Many people have reformed themselves to various degrees, without faith in God.
Much love!
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Hi Wrangler
I am willing to defend my Jehovah Witnesses friends from being accused of following "another Christ".
I am willing to defend my Protestant friends from being accused of worshipping "another God".
@ElieG12 asks me, in his post #21, "who do you think you are?"
Well, I am Francisco Enrique Camacho Mezquita, a 57 year old man, Mexican, baha'i, married, with two daughters, a Medical Doctor working in the pharmacovigilance of medications, whose real photo appears below. My personal email is franencam@gmail.
I disclose all this information voluntarily, within the rules of the Forum.
I take full responsibility of my statements. For example, I take full responsibility for my firm and public rejection to the idea that the God of Christians, Jews, Muslims and Jehovah Witnesses is not the same. I claim to have robust Scriptural and rational support for such rejection, and I am prepared to present such supporting evidence.
In this apologetics forum, I am committed to presenting my thesis with respect and according to the rules of the Forum.
I speak only on my behalf. I know I may be wrong and therefore I am open to accept I am wrong, if refuted with reason and Scriptures.
I recognize in every member of this Forum a servant of God. I am convinced that, within their religion, they all can enjoy the presence of God and enter his Kingdom.
Well, in English this expression "who do you think you are?" is a reaction to certain attitudes.
In my quote is a reaction to your suggestions to a lady; very rude of your part.
In my quote is a reaction to your suggestions to a lady; very rude of your part.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
You’re a nice man, an intelligent man, who has come to build bridges where bridges aren’t wanted by the citizenry.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Judeo-Christian is the same, yes. Allah is not the same character - with certainty, as already shown by the absence of love in Islam.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
This somewhat I fringes on a topic we are not allowed to discuss.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Not mentioning AT ALL that Allah loves us is not the same as Allah mentioning more something else. IMO, you are not squaring up to the truth of the matter.
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Could you pick one single verse from the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) that tell that little Christian girl that God loves her?
There is not a single verse in those 3 books that states specifically that God loves human beings.
Does that mean that we should rule out the synoptic gospels?
Remember: The Bible is a collection of 66 books. The Quran is only one book.
You cannot demand that the book of Daniel or Acts convey all what you read in other books.
Ar-Raheem is a title given to Allah, which in Arabic conveys the meaning of motherly love.
I'm sorry, I thought this was to be in comparison to the Koran, wasn't it? Not just part of it?
Can you find in Nahum that Jesus died for our sins? You are stacking the deck.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son. He says this plainly.
We need honesty to have a proper discussion, not uneven weights.
Jesus' presence in the world, and His death on the cross is God's unending declaration of love for us.
Romans 5:7-8 KJV
7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much love!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Yes. John 3:16 comes to mind. That not one single thing n the Koran states Allah loves us - even infidels - is chilling. That you shrug it off as equal to not live but mercy is even more chilling.
That's not what the Catholic Church thinks.
In an official document (Nostra Aetate 3, from the Second Vatical Council), they have declared to worship the same God.
Catholic theologians were not having breakfast when the document was issued, I guess.
“The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth (Cf. St. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir [Al-Nasir], King of Mauretania PL, 148.451A.), who has spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God’s plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God, they venerate Jesus as a prophet, his Virgin Mother they also honor, and even at times devoutly invoke. Further, they await the day of judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead. For this reason they highly esteem an upright life and worship God, especially by way of prayer, alms-deeds and fasting.
Allah would not exercise mercy towards us if it wasn't because of his love.
Ar-Raheem conveys the most intimal sense of motherly love, and that's why it has been rendered as "Most Compassionate". Your mother feels what you feel, is in pain with your pain, and that's a clear sign of love.
So, my friend Wrangler, you have not "shown" the absence of love in Islam... unless you publicly admit that God's mercy in forgiving our sins and sustaining our lives has nothing to do with His love.
I also hope that you don't think that the genuine love that millions of Muslims express in their daily life is the result of the works of Beelzebub.
On the contrary, marks.
The Quran is only one book, made across 23 years or so. The Bible is a collection of 66 books, made across almost 3,000 years.
Perhaps you mistakenly think in the Bible as a single book. It is not. It has never been.
So, if you want a proper discussion with even weights, you should not compare 66 with 1.
As you wish. God speaks His love plainly in Scripture. Parse it however you want. Where is it ever written in the Koran that Allah ever said he loves anyone?
Much love!
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"The Israelites planned this humiliating death for their Messiah – Jesus, the messenger of God. God in His infinite mercy prevented this abominable event by putting the resemblance of Jesus on somebody else and elevating Jesus alive, body and soul, to heaven. The Quran is silent about the exact details of just who this person was, but we know and believe with certainty that it was not Prophet Jesus."
Jesus Did Not Die, Here is What Really Happened | About Islam
The Islamic belief about Jesus’ crucifixion and death is clear. There was a plot to crucify Jesus but it did not succeed; Jesus did not die, but ascended to
aboutislam.net
From the Bible:
Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Which should we believe? Both? Both are true? No. Either Jesus is true, or He is false. I believe Jesus. What Islam calls an abomination, the Bible calls the power of God to salvation.
That is NOT veneration. That is disbelief and lies.
Much love!
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