The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

You mean like I showed you the 24 elders in heaven with crowns proving that Jesus has come and the kings and priest in heaven in Rev 5 that you cannot refute?

Show us where it says one of the crowns of gold worn by the elders is the crown of life.

As for kings and priests in heaven, how does that prove a pretrib rapture? Do you not know that we are kings and priests even now?

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Davidpt]

Apparently, there is only one thing that is going to prove to Pretribbers that they are wrong about a Pretrib rapture. And that is not any arguments that post tribbers are submitting, including any that I might submit. The only thing that is going to convince them at this point is when Matthew 24:21 begins and that they are still here. They can't deny they were wrong about Pretrib at that point. Because if they were correct about a Pretrib rapture instead, they would not still be here during when Matthew 24:21 is meaning. Therefore, it's just a matter of time when Pretrib will have been undeniably proven wrong when Matthew 24:21 begins and that all Pretribbers are still here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Apparently, there is only one thing that is going to prove to Pretribbers that they are wrong about a Pretrib rapture. And that is not any arguments that post tribbers are submitting, including any that I might submit. The only thing that is going to convince them at this point is when Matthew 24:21 begins and that they are still here. They can't deny they were wrong about Pretrib at that point. Because if they were instead, they would not still be here during when Matthew 24:21 is meaning.

And what do you mean by this exactly? Please describe exactly what you think will happen that will make them realize they were wrong.

 

[WPM]

Paul said, "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

He just got done talking about the coming of the Lord and a rapture. That is why he said TIMES AND SEASONS. That's because they already knew of the times and seasons. He is coming more than once.

This sums up Pretrib evidence. It involves twisting the meaning of text after text. It is a total distortion of Holy Writ, making it say what it doesn't remotely says.

 

[WPM]

Apparently, there is only one thing that is going to prove to Pretribbers that they are wrong about a Pretrib rapture. And that is not any arguments that post tribbers are submitting, including any that I might submit. The only thing that is going to convince them at this point is when Matthew 24:21 begins and that they are still here. They can't deny they were wrong about Pretrib at that point. Because if they were correct about a Pretrib rapture instead, they would not still be here during when Matthew 24:21 is meaning. Therefore, it's just a matter of time when Pretrib will have been undeniably proven wrong when Matthew 24:21 begins and that all Pretribbers are still here.

I do not agree. Jesus said in Matthew 24:15-22, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation [Gr. thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Daniel 12:1-3 reveals, “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

There are two tribulations in Matthew 24, one relating to AD70 and one preceding the coming of Christ. Premils seem to miss that. They are different in the nature, origin and their focus. There is the great tribulation of God upon Israel in AD70, and the tribulation of Satan upon the righteous at the end.

Two tribulations have gone on simultaneously since man was ever created, the tribulation of Satan upon the righteous is manifested in the temptation in the Garden but is poignantly revealed in the relationship between Cain and Able.

The general resurrection will occur after an intense period of tribulation.

There are 2 different tribulations here in 2 different contexts. What happened in AD70 is just a precursor to the destruction at the end that sees all flesh destroyed. The global persecution of the Church at the end will be like no other persecution the people of God have faced.

 

[Davidpt]

And what do you mean by this exactly? Please describe exactly what you think will happen that will make them realize they were wrong.

For one, in my view great tribulation will be involving the following, globally. Which then means, since things like that don't typically happen in the USA, but when they do begin happening in the USA as well, and that Pretribbers are still here, how can they continue to insist Pretrib is true?

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Whatever that looks like when being fulfilled, I can't tell you. But none of it can be fulfilled until a beast rises out of the sea first, another out of the earth, and that the 2nd beast then does what is recorded in Revelation 13:12-17, whatever those things might look like when being fulfilled.

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


Then eventually we will be in this era, globally. This would be meaning during it's 42 month reign, where a lot of us, including most Pretribbers, take to mean great tribulation. And if they are all still here when that begins happening globally, there you go then, Pretrib has been debunked since Pretribbers should not still be here during when Revelation 13:17 is meaning.

If nothing else, surely this part should mean exactly what it says---and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Who would the beast be causing to be killed if the church is not even here at the time? Unbelievers? Obviously not, since unbelievers would be worshiping the beast, not being persecuted and killed because they are refusing to worship it.

We have to keep in mind, when John saw the visions he indicated that at that time, the beast 'is not', and that it is to ascend out of the pit in the future. Can't ascend out of the pit unless you're in there first. It is then a matter of, at this point in time, has the beast already ascended out of the pit? If yes, exactly when then? Otherwise we have to assume it is yet to do this, ascend out of the pit.

 

[WPM]

For one, in my view great tribulation will be involving the following, globally. Which then means, since things like that don't typically happen in the USA, but when they do begin happening in the USA as well, and that Pretribbers are still here, how can they continue to insist Pretrib is true?

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Whatever that looks like when being fulfilled, I can't tell you. But none of it can be fulfilled until a beast rises out of the sea first, another out of the earth, and that the 2nd beast then does what is recorded in Revelation 13:12-17, whatever those things might look like when being fulfilled.

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


Then eventually we will be in this era, globally. This would be meaning during it's 42 month reign, where a lot of us, including most Pretribbers, take to mean great tribulation. And if they are all still here when that begins happening globally, there you go then, Pretrib has been debunked since Pretribbers should not still be here during when Revelation 13:17 is meaning.

If nothing else, surely this part should mean exactly what it says---and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Who would the beast be causing to be killed if the church is not even here at the time? Unbelievers? Obviously not, since unbelievers would be worshiping the beast, not being persecuted and killed because they are refusing to worship it.

We have to keep in mind, when John saw the visions he indicated that at that time, the beast 'is not', and that it is to ascend out of the pit in the future. Can't ascend out of the pit unless you're in there first. It is then a matter of, at this point in time, has the beast already ascended out of the pit? If yes, exactly when then? Otherwise we have to assume it is yet to do this, ascend out of the pit.

Jesus, first of all, speaks about the destruction of the temple in AD70, as a result of Israel's unbelief. He then talks about a future climactic day in the future when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Here were two key events that would happen in the then future. The disciples were obviously inquisitive as to when these would happen. They then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words. Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “Tell us, when shall these things be?”
2. “and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end (sunteleías, meaning completion, or consummation) of the world (age)?”

This proves that the disciples were enquiring about the realization of these two aforementioned days. They wanted to know about their fulfillment. Sadly, Preterists and Premillennialists each ignore the other's events relating to the past and the future. Both are therefore missing the context and meaning. The context proves that Israel will be forced to cry "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" at Christ's future "parousia," at "the end of the age.”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.
In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation [Gr. thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Mark 13:14-20 says, “when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Please note the close correlation between these 3 accounts of the same event - AD70. A comparison of these three parallel narratives will see the correspondence in teaching. Pay especial notice of what is highlighted in brown. This proves that this is an historic event that pertains to the judgment of Jerusalem as a punishment for their rejection of Christ and has been long fulfilled.

Plainly: “the abomination of desolation … standing where it ought not” or standing “in the holy place” relates to the Roman soldiers that would destroy the city of Jerusalem. Luke adds meat to the bones, saying: “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Here is the warning sign to run! There is also the limitation of that judgment so that the Gospel would spread to the nations. The Gospel spread as Jewish families were spread throughout the world.

The Lord tells us that unless this judgment upon Jerusalem was shortened “there should no flesh be saved” (Matthew 24:22). In essence, what He was saying was, there would have been no possibility of Jewish Christians surviving it and consequently no hope of a lost Gentile world receiving this great Gospel if God’s wrath would not have been limited to a short time-period in relative terms. If the wrath of God would have continued to be poured out on wicked man as it was on Jerusalem then mankind would have been finished. But it was restricted to Christ-rejecting Jerusalem.

How can futurists seriously relate these parallel accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, which resulted in the unbelieving Jews being dispersed to “all nations,” to a supposed seven-year end-time persecution of the Church of Jesus Christ? Remember, it was this awful approaching judgment upon the Jews that caused Christ to weep over Jerusalem, crying, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”

 

[WPM]

We have to keep in mind, when John saw the visions he indicated that at that time, the beast 'is not', and that it is to ascend out of the pit in the future. Can't ascend out of the pit unless you're in there first. It is then a matter of, at this point in time, has the beast already ascended out of the pit? If yes, exactly when then? Otherwise we have to assume it is yet to do this, ascend out of the pit.

Revelation 17:8 states, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

This passage strongly shows that the beast existed prior to the day of John, stating, “the beast that was.” Notwithstanding, the terminology that follows appears slightly contradictory – “is not, and yet is.” One could be tempted to reason: it either is or else it isn’t, notwithstanding, this reading plainly says that it both “is” and “is not.” The import of the reading appears to demonstrate that the beast did exist in John’s day, and in fact, before John’s day, but that it had not fully developed into what it would eventually become. There is a saying in Northern Ireland that appears to explain this reading – ‘He is a big fellow, but a wee jacket fits him’ i.e. ‘he is not as big as he thinks he is’. This appears to be the meaning.

Revelation 17:11-13 further enlarges, “the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

The beast “was” because Satan and his kingdom operated long before Christ ever invaded his territory at the first Advent. He is deemed “is not” because, through Christ's successful completion of His Father’s assignment on earth He roundly defeated Satan in his own backyard and spiritually spoiled his goods and influence. Christ instigated the great triumphant global advance upon the kingdom of darkness. This has inflicted great injury and damage upon the antichrist spirit for near 2,000 years. Christ went forth conquering and to conquer through the successful spread of the Gospel to the nations. The fact is the gates of hell can never prevail against the Church of Jesus Christ.

The beast “is not” because Satan and the beast no longer exercises complete unchallenged control over the nations as he once did before the cross. Revelation 13:1-4 shows that at some stage in history one of the beast’s heads were “wounded” thus incapacitating this evil ogre. This can only refer to the cross and Christ’s great victory over the kingdom of darkness. This transaction placed chains upon the rebellious principalities and powers which remain until Satan’s little season.

The beast “is” (at the time of John's writing) because even though Christ spiritual bound him at the cross, he was allowed to continue to operate for a prescribed period, albeit under very definite limits which God has divinely set. These cannot be penetrated.

 

[Davidpt]

I do not agree. Jesus said in Matthew 24:15-22, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation [Gr. thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Daniel 12:1-3 reveals, “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

There are two tribulations in Matthew 24, one relating to AD70 and one preceding the coming of Christ. Premils seem to miss that. They are different in the nature, origin and their focus. There is the great tribulation of God upon Israel in AD70, and the tribulation of Satan upon the righteous at the end.

Two tribulations have gone on simultaneously since man was ever created, the tribulation of Satan upon the righteous is manifested in the temptation in the Garden but is poignantly revealed in the relationship between Cain and Able.

The general resurrection will occur after an intense period of tribulation.

There are 2 different tribulations here in 2 different contexts. What happened in AD70 is just a precursor to the destruction at the end that sees all flesh destroyed. The global persecution of the Church at the end will be like no other persecution the people of God have faced.

Let's begin with this reasoning. Jesus indicated this concerning Matthew 24:21 which you take to be a local event---no, nor ever shall be. Surely you don't dispute that that means this time of trouble can't be equaled nor surpassed in greatness, that it is the greatest time of trouble ever experienced on the earth by anyone since this world began?

You are then arguing that what is recorded in Daniel 12:1, that that is meaning globally. You are then basically arguing this, that something local can be greater in scale than something globally can.

For example. Using your reasoning here unless you are not comprehending what Jesus meant when He said, no, nor ever shall be, would be like comparing a local flood to a global flood, that the former was greater in scale than the latter. That reasoning is backwards. Something global is always going to be greater than something local. That's just common sense. Yet, the way some of you are interpreting Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1, that instead of these passages involving the same events, the same era of time, your interpretation has something local being greater in scale than something global. Once again, completely backwards. That does not agree with reality that a time of trouble allegedly involving something local can be greater in scale than a time of trouble involving something globally. The only way to square this, both passages are involving the same events, the same era of time.

Sometimes maybe all that is needed is to simply apply some common sense if nothing else. Unless some of you lack common sense or something. In that case, I can't help you. Common sense says that something local can never be greater in scale than something that is global.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

For one, in my view great tribulation will be involving the following, globally. Which then means, since things like that don't typically happen in the USA, but when they do begin happening in the USA as well, and that Pretribbers are still here, how can they continue to insist Pretrib is true?

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Whatever that looks like when being fulfilled, I can't tell you. But none of it can be fulfilled until a beast rises out of the sea first, another out of the earth, and that the 2nd beast then does what is recorded in Revelation 13:12-17, whatever those things might look like when being fulfilled.

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Whatever this might look like? If even you, a post-tribber, don't know what these things are about, how can pre-tribbers recognize it?

. This would be meaning during it's 42 month reign, where a lot of us, including most Pretribbers, take to mean great tribulation.

Great tribulation involving what exactly? Please try to be more specific. How can any pretribber be convinced they are wrong by certain things that will supposedly happen when you can't even tell me what those things are with any specific details?

And if they are all still here when that begins happening globally,

When what begins happening globally exactly?

there you go then, Pretrib has been debunked since Pretribbers should not still be here during when Revelation 13:17 is meaning.

How will they know if what is described in Revelation 13:17 is happening?

If nothing else, surely this part should mean exactly what it says---and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Are you sure about this? Let me show you what logical conclusion we can come to if that verse is meant to mean exactly what it says.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

All who worship the beast also worship the image of the beast. And this says it is all "whose names are not written in the book of life" who worship the beast. This implies that all whose names are written in the book of life do not worship the beast or its image. So, what you are saying then is that no believers will be alive by the time Jesus returns because they will all have been killed before then. Yet, Paul says those who are alive and remain will be caught up with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. So, you need to rethink how you are interpreting the book of Revelation so that it lines up with the rest of scripture.

What it's saying is that the beast wants to kill everyone who doesn't worship its image, not that it would actually be successful in doing so. Many Christians have been persecuted and killed for their faith throughout the past almost 2,000 years, but that gets ignored by premils like you who think the book of Revelation is only about the future without realizing it's about the entire New Testament era up until the second coming of Christ.

We have to keep in mind, when John saw the visions he indicated that at that time, the beast 'is not', and that it is to ascend out of the pit in the future. Can't ascend out of the pit unless you're in there first. It is then a matter of, at this point in time, has the beast already ascended out of the pit? If yes, exactly when then? Otherwise we have to assume it is yet to do this, ascend out of the pit.

The dragon (representing Satan) needs the beast to do its work (Rev 13:4). So, in my view, if the beast is in the pit then so is the dragon. If you try to say that the dragon can do his thing even without the beast, then what is the point of the dragon ever giving his power to the beast?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's begin with this reasoning. Jesus indicated this concerning Matthew 24:21 which you take to be a local event---no, nor ever shall be. Surely you don't dispute that that means this time of trouble can't be equaled nor surpassed in greatness, that it is the greatest time of trouble ever experienced on the earth by anyone since this world began?

How can it be greater than the flood in Noah's day in how you understand what it means? Do you think there is going to be a future global event where even fewer than 8 people survive?

 

[WPM]

Let's begin with this reasoning. Jesus indicated this concerning Matthew 24:21 which you take to be a local event---no, nor ever shall be. Surely you don't dispute that that means this time of trouble can't be equaled nor surpassed in greatness, that it is the greatest time of trouble ever experienced on the earth by anyone since this world began?

You are then arguing that what is recorded in Daniel 12:1, that that is meaning globally. You are then basically arguing this, that something local can be greater in scale than something globally can.

For example. Using your reasoning here unless you are not comprehending what Jesus meant when He said, no, nor ever shall be, would be like comparing a local flood to a global flood, that the former was greater in scale than the latter. That reasoning is backwards. Something global is always going to be greater than something local. That's just common sense. Yet, the way some of you are interpreting Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1, that instead of these passages involving the same events, the same era of time, your interpretation has something local being greater in scale than something global. Once again, completely backwards. That does not agree with reality that a time of trouble allegedly involving something local can be greater in scale than a time of trouble involving something globally. The only way to square this, both passages are involving the same events, the same era of time.

Sometimes maybe all that is needed is to simply apply some common sense if nothing else. Unless some of you lack common sense or something. In that case, I can't help you. Common sense says that something local can never be greater in scale than something that is global.

Dr. Luke is more specific, and seems to identify both the warning that would appear, and the location (or holy place) where it would appear. He states, “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” After identifying this, he then declares, in near identical language to the other two accounts, “Then let them which are in Judaea flee.” Plainly, the appearance of the sign is the actual signal that the Lord gives to occasion the escape from Jerusalem. We must therefore assume, from this corresponding accounts, that the appearance of the desolater, which was to be the actual signal to flee, was the “compassed” or circling invading heathen Roman armies, which had come to specially destroy the city, and that the “holy place” is the actual city of Jerusalem, or the temple therein.

The only thing that would push us away from the idea that the temple was the actual holy place described is that Luke just simply mentions Jerusalem. Also, one would image that if an invading army had advanced as far as the temple, in the centre of Jerusalem, then it would be far too late for to flee. Surely the harmony and correlation between these three passages, including the unquestionable restricting of the persecution to Jerusalem and the Jewish people makes this a profound historic record of God’s wrath upon the Jewish nation for their rejection of Messiah and the continuation of the then abolished sacrifices.

The command to flee was taken up by the believing Jews who indeed acted upon the Lord's counsel and therefore escaped this judgment of the Lord. They were consequently able to take the Gospel out throughout the Middle East. I don't know how you can't see this. Maybe you don't want to see it?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus, first of all, speaks about the destruction of the temple in AD70, as a result of Israel's unbelief. He then talks about a future climactic day in the future when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Here were two key events that would happen in the then future. The disciples were obviously inquisitive as to when these would happen. They then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words. Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “Tell us, when shall these things be?”
2. “and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end (sunteleías, meaning completion, or consummation) of the world (age)?”

This proves that the disciples were enquiring about the realization of these two aforementioned days. They wanted to know about their fulfillment. Sadly, Preterists and Premillennialists each ignore the other's events relating to the past and the future. Both are therefore missing the context and meaning.

Exactly. Both preterists and futurist premils are too extreme in their views and it causes them both to misinterpret a lot of what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse. Some premils resort to trying to claim that Jesus's answer to the first question the disciples asked is only recorded in Luke 21 and not in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. This is ludicrous! There is no basis whatsoever for that claim. Why would Matthew and Mark not record His answer to that question? There is no reason at all that they wouldn't have. And they did, as you showed by comparing the 3 accounts together. It is very clear that Luke 21:20-24a is parallel to Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20, but futurists inexplicably deny that.

 

[WPM]

Exactly. Both preterists and futurist premils are too extreme in their views and it causes them both to misinterpret a lot of what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse. Some premils resort to trying to claim that Jesus's answer to the first question the disciples asked is only recorded in Luke 21 and not in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. This is ludicrous! There is no basis whatsoever for that claim. Why would Matthew and Mark not record His answer to that question? There is no reason at all that they wouldn't have. And they did, as you showed by comparing the 3 accounts together. It is very clear that Luke 21:20-24a is parallel to Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20, but futurists inexplicably deny that.

True!!!

 

[The Light]

This sums up Pretrib evidence. It involves twisting the meaning of text after text. It is a total distortion of Holy Writ, making it say what it doesn't remotely says.

So, the guy that has to sneakily change the scripture in order to fool people wants to accuse others of twisting scripture.

That's rich.

Anyway, thank you for trying to show where your rapture is in Revelation. Of course it's not there.

I'm wondering when it will occur to some of you that you are not post trib, you are post wrath.

 

[WPM]

So, the guy that has to sneakily change the scripture in order to fool people wants to accuse others of twisting scripture.

That's rich.

Anyway, thank you for trying to show where your rapture is in Revelation. Of course it's not there.

I'm wondering when it will occur to some of you that you are not post trib, you are post wrath.

Address any text in the Op and i will be happy to engage. But no. You duck around these because they forbid your taught error. I will wait and see if you (or your Pretrib colleagues) will actually address, engage, and exegete a text. The reader will see thread after thread of avoidance and insults.

You seem to think: you stating a thing indicates that that makes it so. Well, no! Quite the opposite. That exposes the impotence of your doctrine. All you have is personal opinion. Your doctrine is built upon sand. You cannot back up any of your claims.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, the guy that has to sneakily change the scripture in order to fool people wants to accuse others of twisting scripture.

This is a serious accusation. What did he supposedly change? Show me.

 

[WPM]

This is a serious accusation. What did he supposedly change? Show me.

Exactly! This is all they have!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly! This is all they have!

Does he think we are just going to take his word for it when he makes accusations like that? He doesn't back up his claims about scripture and also doesn't back up his claims about us. It's just pure dishonesty.

 

[Keraz]

And what do you mean by this exactly? Please describe exactly what you think will happen that will make them realize they were wrong.

It will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, which will shock and terrify everyone. Isaiah 35:4-5 says it clearly, AFTER the Day of vengeance and retribution, THEN the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf will be opened. Isaiah 29:18, +

Only then, will the poor saps, the deceived rapture to heaven believers understand the truth and despite their desperate bunny hops; they aren't going anywhere.

The forthcoming Day of the Lords fiery wrath, will be the great test of our faith; ALL will experience it.= 1 Peter 4:12, James 1:12, 1 Peter 1:6-7