It most certainly is not. That would mean God is the person called "salvation" every time he wakes the dead.
AN OPEN LETTER TO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I did read your post and it was no different to any other anti-JW post written by blind haters who only think they know what we believe. Ignorance is a curse….so are lies and half truths promoted by those who have only one agenda. You are fulfilling prophesy yourselves but in your blinded state, you can’t see it.
Distortion of truth is nothing new, but which is the distortion? In Jesus’ day, the real heretics, who had completely lost the plot through hundreds of years of apostasy, were pointing fingers at Jesus and his disciples crying “HERESY”! Who did the majority believe?
It was going to happen again because the devil counts on the short memory of the masses, and them not understanding how it happened.…they are convinced that only they are the genuine “Christians” despite the fact that they fail to comprehend the principle outlined by Paul in 1 Cor 1:10….Unity identifies the true Christians. Disunity comes from an absence of God’s uniting spirit.
Have you yourselves fallen for the ancient apostasy that Jesus said was coming to the Christian faith, and was already manifesting in the first century? It’s not new….it has been festering for almost 2000 years, but Daniel prophesied that in “the time of the end” God would “cleanse, purify and refine” his worshippers (Daniel 12:9-10)…..did you miss that memo?
As to the other falsehood promoted by the haters…..no one can earn everlasting life by works…..but neither can they be granted such without them….I guess you missed that memo too…?
“But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; . . . For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.“ (James 2:18-20; 26 ESV)
You need both.
Well, apparently you have done no original language word studies….
Heb 1:6….
“And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,“Let all God's angels worship him.” (ESV)
The word rendered “worship” (in both verses) in Greek is “proskyneō” which, according to Strongs Concordance, means….
- to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
- among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
- in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
- used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
- to the Jewish high priests
- to God
- to Christ
- to heavenly beings
- to demons”
- used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
Is this what you think that word means? Who told you it only means “worship”…..don’t throw your lack of Bible education at me please…..like so many others who come on here with misunderstandings about what Scripture is actually teaching us, you make your blind accusations without knowledge.
Is that what you assume? Who told you that?
This is what Daniel prophesied…
Daniel 12:9-10…after seeing a vision about our day, the angel who communicated these things to Daniel…..
”…said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.“ (ESV)
We have been in the “time of the end” for many decades now, and “the end” draws ever closer….day by day.
Why would God foretell a ‘purification, whitening and refining‘ of his worshippers if such was not in an impure and filthy state, spiritually speaking? Do you honestly think God looks down from heaven at the appallingly divided state of Christendom and warmly smiles whilst they pollute his worship, participate in bloodshed and persecute his people? Christendom has more than blood on her hands….like her first century counterpart, she is the foremost corrupter of God’s worship.….teaching things that Christ never taught, and passing them off a doctrines. (Matt 15:7-9)
Who is it that Daniel says will have no understanding? God will not open wicked eyes or hearts.
Another misunderstanding….who told you that we believe that death is just separation from God?
Since we have no belief in an immortal soul, there is nothing to separate. The dead sleep in “sheol/hades”. (Eccl 9:5, 10; Psalm 115:17) There is “silence” in the grave because the dead are actually dead. There is no such thing as an immortal soul that separates from the body to go anywhere else. That idea came from the pagan Greeks, not the Bible.
Resurrection is a return to life, not a continuation of it somewhere else…and certainly not to a place where the wicked are roasted forever.
According to Strongs, “Gehenna” (mistranslated as “hell”) means…
- “Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.”
Souls are “destroyed” in “Gehenna” as Jesus said. (Matt 10:28) Only God can destroy life by not awakening the wicked, trapped forever in death….never to live again. That is as mean as God gets…..he derives no pleasure even from the death of the wicked, let alone wanting to torment them forever. (Ezek 18:23)
I heartily agree….”hell” (hades) as it is taught in Scripture, is just the common grave of mankind.…we all go there. But you speak of “Gehenna” which as we can see, is a whole other thing, and what it meant to Jesus’ Jewish audience was never what Christendom turned it into…what a wonderful god you worship….he apparently can torture people for all eternity for a short lifetime of sin. The sin they inherited from Adam was not their fault but God will torture them forever anyway……are you serious?
Is this the god you worship? You are welcome to him….
Why is it called “the second death”? It’s because the first death is one from which God will resurrect all the dead. (John 5:28-29) By means of his son and his holy spirit, the dead will all be raised, called out of “hades” to be judged either worthy of life, or given a period of judgment to turn their lives around. The majority of those who have died, did not know God or his Christ through circumstances beyond their control. God’s justice is not served through Christendom’s false teachings…
Your ignorance just makes me shake my head……I was raised in Christendom, so I have already discarded the lies I was taught growing up…..you should examine your beliefs more closely and trace their origins. It‘s very enlightening. In a world ruled by the devil (1 John 5:19)……nothing is as it appears to be…..it is deception….we will all find that out eventually……Jesus is our judge and his judgment is final, and in accord with his Father’s perfect justice.
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Ah, so Daniel prophesied that God would cleanse the sinners and wash them. Isn't that exactly what I said? That Christ washed me clean, and I did nothing on my own?
You are a whitewashed tomb. Self-righteous. And self-justified. Trusting in your own works and deeds for salvation.
Jesus came to fulfil the law for us (Matthew 5:17), so that we may inherit His righteousness through
faith (Romans 10:4). And He came to die for our sins, so that we wouldn’t have to (2 Corinthians
5:21). Therefore, the only thing you need to be saved is repentance and faith, which produces good
works. James 2:18 is simply saying that true faith results in good works. James 2:23 even affirms how
Abraham was justified purely by faith and not by works. Yes, his faith caused him to do good works,
but the works played no part in him being counted as righteous, or being called a friend of God.
Simply it was his faith that was counted to him as righteousness. Him being willing to sacrifice Isaac
was actually 30 years after he was declared righteous, because in Genesis 22, when he was willing to
sacrifice Isaac, it was 30 years after Genesis 15, when he was declared righteous by God.
And I'm aware of Gehenna. Jesus often used physical metaphors to refer to spiritual truths.
As for the deity of Christ, how about this?
Jesus is the one doing all of the judging. The Father judges no one at all.
Jesus is saying he will come in the glory of his Father, and he is saying “I will repay each one
according to his behaviour”.
Since Jesus is the one who repays each one according to his work, who is speaking here? According
to what we just read in John and Matthew; it is Jesus.
So, it is definitely Jesus speaking when saying “I am coming quickly”
Jesus has just said that he is the Alpha and Omega, since he is the one speaking.
Jesus is literally claiming to be God. Only God can be Alpha and Omega. Also see Isaiah 44:6, and Revelation 1:8
Every creature, not some. If Jesus is a creature in heaven, he would be part of every created thing.
Why then is he not part of every created thing, and is separate from them? And why is this creature
receiving the exact same worship that God almighty is receiving?
Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot pray to Jesus. They pray to the Father in Jesus' name. And neither do
they call on the name of Jesus. Calling on the name of Jehovah means to pray to him, to speak to
him, praise him, thank him, tell him you love him, glorify him, and make your needs and requests
known.
Jehovah is close to us, he draws near whenever we call on him, and no other nation has that kind of
God except for us. Call on him, not on someone else, right?
With sincerity, not being doubleminded, not being doubtful, or worshipping other Gods or your own
desires.
Jehovah has priests, and they call upon his name. So, can you call upon any other name in heaven
besides Jehovah? And who besides Jehovah has priests serving him?
So, Jehovah alone has priests, who are serving him, and calling on his name. How does this prove
Jesus is God?
Paul says the Christians were known and characterised by this practise of calling on the name of our
Lord Jesus Christ. Christians everywhere were united by calling on the name of Jesus Christ.
He didn't mention the Father, he mentioned the Son of God. So, who is the him, and who is the his
who hears us in this context? JESUS!
So, Christ has priests serving him. Jesus has priests the same way the father does, serving him the
way they serve the father. So, Jesus is separate from every created thing in heaven and on Earth.
Jesus is worshipped, glorified, and praised to the same degree that the Father is worshipped, glorified and praised. Jesus has priests, and
believers are those who call on his name and pray to him. On top of that, I just demonstrated that Jesus claimed to be the Alpha and the Omega, a title reserved only for Jehovah.
What was the evidence you had for him being Michael again? Or even, what evidence do you have that he's created?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
But you use “hell” when the Bible is way more specific than Christendom is. How many whoidentify as “Christians“ actually have any idea what the Bible’s “hell” is in reality?
Scaring the pants off people certainly got their attention and fear is a great controller. The devil knows this.
“Hell” is nothing to do with disembodied spirits languishing in agony in an eternal fire……or enjoying heavenly bliss either. What do people assume that they are going to do in heaven? Was it ever held out as a destination to Adam and his wife?
There is not a single ”soul” in heaven. All “souls” are earth bound, living, breathing creatures.…”souls” die. (Ezek 18:4)
That is a banned topic but it’s been hashed to death already and many posts have been offered in the past to clear up everything you assume to be true about that subject.
But really, you never really addressed a single thing I said……no answer is a loud reply…
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
LOL…I spoke too soon…..you had a copy and paste all ready….how could I forget that the party line is so predictable? I was raised with your beliefs….I studied them carefully and discarded every single one of them….
If you think this is all absolute truth, by all means hold onto what you believe as I have nothing to tell you…..
I did respond to you on the topic of being justified by faith. Either you're justified in your own eyes by your own deeds, or you know your righteousness is like filthy rags to God and your faith is in Christ to justify you, which results in good works. Everything else you said was honestly just irrelevant.
So Jesus isn't claiming to be Alpha and Omega? It's pretty clear he is.
It may be less than what you think. Both the Father and Jesus are the Alpha and Omega.
Then you disagree with what Jehovah's Witnesses teach. There is only one God, one beginning, one end. There can't be multiple beginnings, that's a contradiction.
Thus Jesus and Jehovah are one God. JW.org also says that it is Jehovah speaking in Revelation 22:12-13, so if you accept that, you accept that Jesus is Jehovah.
If you want we can talk about the fact that conservative estimates show that 3 Jehovah's Witnesses die per day because they refuse blood transfusions.
Or how about the many added words into the NWT like "other" in Colossians 1? Literally proving its corruption.
Or the many false prophecies The Watchtower has made?
Or how about the changes in doctrines because they couldn't afford the lawsuits?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Well, I cannot let that one go unchallenged…..what a complete load of codswallop.
Tell me what you know about the efficacy of blood transfusions…..strictly from the medical perspective.
Let me share a video with you that was posted on the Australian Government website to highlight the dangers associated with this procedure….allowing us to see that way more people die after a transfusion than ever die for refusing one…..they won’t tell you this though.
There are whole hospitals around the world now dedicated to non-blood management of their patients based on the outcomes of Witness patients compared to those who accepted transfusions.
Blood Transfusions
Look for the parts that tell you how blood transfusions contribute to “more morbidity (bad outcomes) and mortality (death) than any other medical procedure”. They have known this for decades but still promote them as “life saving”….but they never were. They are a multi-million dollar a year ‘cash cow’ for industries associated with big pharma.
If someone dies for refusing a blood transfusion when alternative therapies are well established, then what does that say about the medical profession who have failed to keep up with new and improved techniques that are actually safer?
In the majority of cases the patients would have died regardless. This is pure ignorance.
Do you honestly trust the medical profession after the fiasco of the “pandemic”? What a colossal pile of cow cookies that turned out to be.
What a joke…the word “other” does not alter the meaning of the verse in any way…..
Here is the whole passage…
”He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all other things by making peace through the blood he shed on the torture stake, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.”
Here it is from the ESV…
”He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of ALL creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created THROUGH him and FOR him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. and THROUGH HIM to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.”
How well do you read? Or do you only see what you want to see In those words?
If Jesus is “the firstborn of ALL CREATION” then he is part of that creation. (Rev 3:14)
He is the “us“ and “our” in Gen 1:26…working alongside his Father in creation…his “master workman”. (Prov 8:30-31) Do you know what agency is? It is the one “through whom” a procedure is conducted. The son acts as the agency for his Father. He is “the only begotten son of God”. I cannot find a single mention of Jesus as anything else. There is not a single statement where he admits to being anything but “the son of God”. (John 10:31-36)
What is Paul telling us about his Lord Jesus there in Colossians?….the one who was not his God.
The apostles collectively told us who their God was….1 Cor 8:5-6…ESV…
”For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and FOR whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH whom are all things and THROUGH whom we exist.“
Just read what it says with both eyes open…..
If there is “one God, the Father” then that is the God I believe in. Jesus is my Lord, but he is not my God.
LOL…there was just one prophesy…we got the timing wrong is all…..the apostles got the timing wrong as to when the Kingdom would be set up according to their Jewish mindset… (Acts 1:6) The kingdom was a long way off, but they didn’t know that then. Keeping in expectation of it was what Jesus recommended. (Matt 24:43-44)
Good grief! Where on earth would you get that kind of nonsense from? Perhaps from those who were weeded out of our brotherhood when the time came and went and there was no establishment of the kingdom…..What do Americans do when their expectations are not met…..they sue of course!….biggest suers on earth! It makes them look stupid and childish.…as if money solves all problems. Money will not get them everlasting life.
God allows a little sifting from time to time…because it “weeds” out those who are serving God for their own selfish advantage. Jesus said that satan wanted to “sift“ his disciples “as wheat”….and God allows it because it gets rid of the “chaff”.
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There are many lords and many gods, but only Jesus was considered to be lord, and only YHWH is the God who made the universe.
English Standard Version (ESV) 12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Funny it doesn't say that or imply that.
The slaves might think outside the box. It is good that they die for globalism. :)
I’m afraid you’re deflecting.
Jesus also didn’t kill anyone. He said to “love your enemy.” - Matt.5:44
Has Christendom followed His example?
You haven’t answered those questions.
Who did Jesus worship? As followers of Jesus - which is what Christian means - shouldn’t we worship Who he worshipped? - John 20:17; Revelation 3:12
Direct your anger toward the disobedient. As Jesus did.
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@hies ,
You said “Jesus and Jehovah are one God”, huh?
Then who was Jesus praying to, all those numerous times?! When he was dying, why did He say, “My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?”?!
Who did he mean teaching his disciples to pray, “Our Father, let Your name be sanctified”?
Etc., etc.
You’re mistaken.
You said “Jesus and Jehovah are one God”, huh?
Then who was Jesus praying to, all those numerous times?! When he was dying, why did He say, “My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?”?!
Who did he mean teaching his disciples to pray, “Our Father, let Your name be sanctified”?
Etc., etc.
You’re mistaken.
First off, the numbers they used to show complications that arise from blood transfusions is seriously outdated. The medicine has improved significantly. But I would definitely argue that getting a few complications (which is now closer to 1 in 100) is a lot better than death. In an independent study that included 125 JWs who all refused transfusion, and they had reached the point where a doctor would normally insist on a transfusion, over 60% of them died. So 3 in 5 died unneccessarily. Compared to 1 in 100 who get complications like a fever or chills, and 1 in 362,000 that potentially died as a result of the transfusion. It's pretty evident that getting a transfusion is astronomically better than not getting one. But the Watchtower spreads its propaganda to make it seem like the opposite is true.
From this article, using government sources, we can see that at least 46,544 JWs have died between 1961-2016 as a result of the Watchtower's blood policy
Jehovah’s Witnesses and Blood – Tens of Thousands Dead in Hidden Tragedy
Visit the post for more.
www.ajwrb.org
That's literally 2-3 PER DAY
This article is even better still: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower's changing stance on blood transfusions
- Scripturally Inaccurate - Most Christian religions recognise that there is no scriptural prohibition on Christians transfusing blood.
- Inconsistent - The Watchtower states God's standard is that blood must not be stored, yet allows Jehovah's Witnesses to use blood fractions derived from stored blood.
- A Double Standard - Jehovah's Witnesses use significant quantities of medical products derived from blood, but are forbidden from donating blood.
And why did they change their minds on vaccinations? Because they couldn't afford the legal costs! From Watchtower, December 15th, 1952, page 764, they said:
But remember, this was after they'd said vaccinations were a devilish practice... From Golden Age 1921 October 12th page 17
They kept this belief for 10-20 years, saying it goes against the everlasting covenant that God had made with Noah after the flood, and only changed their minds because they couldn't afford the legal costs. They changed their minds on this "devilish practice" because of money!
So you're supposed to refuse blood transfusions to the point of death, but they're allowed to change their beliefs on things based on legal costs!
Mike Winger made a video covering all of this, which I strongly urge you to watch as well:
It absolutely does. The word firstborn means the greatest, or the head, it's simply about status. David was called firstborn in Psalm 89:27, yet is the youngest son of Jesse. When God says firstborn, he is referring to status. So when Jesus is the firstborn over all creation, it means he is the head, and above all creation. So, when it says "For by him all things were created", it means he created all things, which would make him uncreated. So, inserting the word "other" absolutely changes its meaning. If John wanted it to say "other", it would have said "other". This ties in perfectly with him being the Alpha and the Omega.
One only begets of one's own kind. Monogenes (μονογενής) has two primary definitions, "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship" and "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind".
It does not mean created.
John was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus is the Son of God (John 20:31), and he uses monogenes to highlight Jesus as uniquely God’s Son — sharing the same divine nature as God — as opposed to believers who are God’s sons and daughters by adoption (Ephesians 1:5). Jesus is God’s “one and only” Son.
C.S. Lewis said it best: "What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind. They are more like statues or pictures of God."
So, Jesus is God's only begotten Son (making him equal with God in kind, sharing the same divine nature as God), and is the firstborn (in charge of, head of) all creation. And by him, all things were created.
One false prophesy would be bad, but there were several. They claimed Armageddon was coming in 1925 multiple times between 1910-1924. They said that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the faithful prophets of old would begin physically reigning on the Earth. Even claiming there was more evidence of this for believers than Noah had for building the Ark! They claimed "only months remain" before Armageddon in 1941. And from 1968-1975 they claimed that Armageddon was coming in 1975.
This video covers all of the Watchtower/Awake magazines that made the many false prophecies:
I've attached a document that covers them all by name and provides sources for you to look up, but this post is already getting very long so I can't include it here. The video also gives the names and references to all of the Awake/Watchtower magazines that made the many false prophecies.
But most importantly, watch the blood transfusions video. I know it's long, but he covers a lot of information. Far more than I could hope to include here.
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If I went around killing people in the name of TheHC, would that make you guilty? Similarly, just because some Christians have done bad things in the past, does not mean all Christians are bad. Are you calling me a murderer? Well, I suppose I am, since I've hated people in my heart, but so have you! You hate Christians!
Indeed the Father is greater than Jesus in the flesh. He really did become fully man. He really did empty himself out, and take on the role of a servant (Philippians 2:7). But when he said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", he was quoting from Psalm 22, to indicate the fulfillment of that prophecy. Even though Christ is the eternal God Himself incarnate, He is still a different person from the Father. As a man and as man’s representative (Son of Man), Jesus’ person was dependent on the Father and, like us, looked to the Father for strength, guidance, wisdom, etc. Therefore, God the Father was the God of Jesus. The Father is the God of the Son, but it doesn’t imply inferiority, only a difference in roles.
But please don't deflect, this was about Jesus being the Alpha and the Omega. If you agree that he is, then you disagree with what JW.org says. If you agree with what JW.org says, then you disagree with what even the NWT says, as they were unable to completely corrupt it. And oh boy they tried.
Yes, and who is all of the judging done by? Who repays each one according to what they have done? Jesus! So it is Jesus speaking!
For the Father judges no one at all
I don't think @hies is mistaken.
The real issue here is how much we are to discount such statements to and about God the Father as Jesus made during the 30-odd years He walked the planet, in light of Phil. 2:6-8. What was it exactly that the pre-incarnate Son (we can't call him "Jesus" before He was born in the flesh and was given that name) "emptied himself" of? There are several possible answers involving the effect of laying aside His divinity which would make your quoted examples fully consistent with @hies' position that Jesus and Jehovah are one God. I happen to agree with @hies' conclusion, although my reasons differ from his.
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You are now implying the Father isn't God, because he doesn't judge. The reverse would have to be true, since the Father is more than the messiah.
No, I'm implying they have different roles, because they're different persons, but are the same one God.
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