What is the mystery that Paul references in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52? Is it the rapture (catching up to Christ) as pretrib teaches or something else?

[Ronald Nolette]

The order that things happen has nothing to do with the point I'm making in this thread. Can you understand that? What exactly did Paul say was a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52? Us being caught up to Christ? Or something else? Read it for yourself and see.

He said we all won't die, but all be changed in a moment to immortal and incorruptible

Our bodies being changed is the mystery, not our being gathered to Christ. Our being gathered to Christ was already previously (before 1st Corinthians 15 was written) talked about in Matthew 24:31 (Mark 13:27) and 1st Thessolonians 4:14-17, which was written a few years before 1st Corinthians 15:51-52.

Matt. 24 is not the rapture.
It is gathering the remnant of Israel from the globe to stand before Jesus on His throne. this is after teh return of Jesus and the rapture is not post trib.

Yes the OT mystery revealed in Corinth is that not all will die but all will be immortalized.

Why would he teach them completely different things? He wanted all believers to have a full understanding of what he taught and what the rest of scripture taught.

He would not teach contradictory things

What now? I don't get the sense that you are even trying to see my point.

I am just trying to answer you rpoints made.

I agree that immortalized bodies that did not di was an OT mystery.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok, I had to read your post several times and thought about it. I think there is a big difference between the translations that might be causing an issue. I know from past conversations you like to use NIV. I prefer KJV but no translation is perfect.

I use both. And I look at other translations as well. And Hebrew and Greek resources.

What I normally try to do when I quote scripture is quote it in the preferred translation of the person I'm talking to (if I know what it is). That way, they can't tell me "Well, that isn't what it says in the KJV" or something like that, which is just annoying. I like to show people that what I'm saying is reflected in their translation of choice. Getting into a debate over which translation is the best is not something I'm interested in.

But, I made an exception in this case because I think calling it "the end of the age" like the NIV does is better than calling it "the end of the world" as the KJV does. That was really my only reasoning for quoting it from the NIV.

Matthew 13:30 (NIV) Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’

Matthew 13:30 (KJV) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.



NIV says “at that time” while KJV says “in the time of harvest”. If the angels gather in the harvest or in the end of the age then that could be interpreted as a completely different time than if they gather at the time, which could mean after the harvest.

Yep, I see what you're saying. So, the NIV obviously reflects how I view it. But, my reasoning for viewing it that way is not because of how it is worded in the NIV. Let me be very clear on that. My reasoning is based on what I see in other scripture and I explained that.

This may be one of those things that isn’t clear in the Greek but I’m going to look into it, I just thought I would post this first to see if you’ve already come across this issue.

I hadn't really noticed that difference, no. It's just the kind of thing we have to deal with since Greek isn't our native language. Anyone who thinks one particular English translation is perfect is missing out. I think it's wise to compare the text in multiple translations and then we have to decide for ourselves which one (if any of them) makes the most sense in light of scripture as a whole. And we should try to use Hebrew and Greek resources for further understanding of the words that were translated as well.

Edit: I just thought of something that may (or may not) help you with this.

Here is another parable that is speaking of the same thing as the parable of the wheat and tares, except in this case it is a parable of the good fish or sea creatures (representing the same people as the wheat) and bad fish or sea creatures (representing the same people as the tares).

Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

While Matthew 13:43 says "in the end of the world", this says "at the end of the world". This is from the KJV, so I'm leaving the NIV out of this for your sake. To me, saying this will happen "at the end of the world" means that the world (or age) will end and then what is described will happen (good and bad gathered and separated for judgment).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He said we all won't die, but all be changed in a moment to immortal and incorruptible

Okay. So, we're on the same page here. That is the mystery. That's it. He said nothing about being resurrected from the dead being a mystery or being gathered to Christ (the rapture - catching up) being a mystery. That is the point I'm making.

Matt. 24 is not the rapture.
It is gathering the remnant of Israel from the globe to stand before Jesus on His throne. this is after teh return of Jesus and the rapture is not post trib.

I disagree, but is not part of the point I'm making in this thread and I don't have any interest in arguing that point in this particular thread. My point is that the gathering to Christ (rapture/catching up) was not a mystery before Paul wrote about it.

Yes the OT mystery revealed in Corinth is that not all will die but all will be immortalized.

Right. And that is my point in this thread. I'm glad we have agreement on that, at least.

He would not teach contradictory things

Agree.

I am just trying to answer you rpoints made.

I appreciate it. Thanks.

I agree that immortalized bodies that did not di was an OT mystery.

Great. Nice to agree on something for a change.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians are speaking of the same event namely the resurrection of the righteous dead (sleep) at the second coming of Jesus. Jesus also speaks of it in Matthew 24: 30-31

Do you think I believe otherwise? If so, it's not possible that you read everything I said since I made it clear that I believe 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 are 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 are part of the same event. And I agree it's the same event as Matthew 24:30-31 as well. So, please re-read my original post so that you can see what my point actually is in this thread.

Breaking these scriptures up into different events in my view is an error and only makes a mess of something straightforward.

Absolutely. I make that same point frequently. It's not the point I'm making in this thread at all. Again, please re-read my original post.

The mystery Paul speaks of he clarifies in 1 Corinthians, namely there is no need for anxiety about loved ones (believers) who have died before Jesus returns. These are 'asleep' in the grave till the resurrection morning where eternal life will be bestowed on them.
The text itself is clear. It only becomes unclear when one interprets Corinthians, Thessalonians and Matthew as seperate or semi seperate events.

To me the mystery that had not previously been revealed is explicitly stated in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, and that is that our bodies will all be changed to be immortal at the last trumpet. That's it. So, when pre-tribs try to say that the rapture (being gathered to Christ) was a mystery, I disagree because that was already taught previously in Matthew 24:30-31 (Mark 13:26-27). The word rapture does not refer to being resurrected, being changed, being gathered and being caught up. It only refers to being gathered and caught up. So, the rapture (being gathered to Christ) was not a mystery, only our bodies (resurrected dead in Christ and living Christians both) being changed to be immortal at the last trumpet

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's simply the second coming, in the last day resurrection and catching up of God's people (The End) eternity begins

Yes, that is what I believe will happen as well, but what is being discussed in this thread is answering the question of what is the mystery that Paul referenced here:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

To me, the mystery is exactly what he said it was there and nothing more. But, many pre-tribs try to say that being gathered and caught up to Christ was also a mystery before he wrote that. But, I disagree with that because Jesus already talked about a gathering to Him at His coming in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. Do you agree?

 

[grafted branch]

While Matthew 13:43 says "in the end of the world", this says "at the end of the world". This is from the KJV, so I'm leaving the NIV out of this for your sake. To me, saying this will happen "at the end of the world" means that the world (or age) will end and then what is described will happen (good and bad gathered and separated for judgment).

I see what you’re getting at but I think it really comes down to more of an opinion than anything else.



If the pastor says we will sing a hymn at the end of service, everyone knows it will be during the service before they are excused to go.

If the pastor says there will be a pot luck at the end of service, everyone knows that the service itself will end, they will be excused, and then they will eat pot luck lunch.



I don’t think a definitive conclusion can be made by just looking at those parables. I agree that the KJV would be better translated as “end of the age” like the NIV instead of “end of the world” but I think people who see the literal end of this world coinciding with the end of the age have no issue with it.

Personally I think the end of the age is the end of the old covenant age which was about to vanish according to Hebrews.

 

[Truth7t7]

To me, the mystery is exactly what he said it was there and nothing more. But, many pre-tribs try to say that being gathered and caught up to Christ was also a mystery before he wrote that. But, I disagree with that because Jesus already talked about a gathering to Him at His coming in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. Do you agree?

Matthew 24:29-31 & Mark 13:24-27 speaks of the future second coming of Jesus Christ and the last day resurrection of all, as explained in the wheat/tares parable in Matthew Chapter 13

 

[jeffweeder]

Yes, that is what I believe will happen as well, but what is being discussed in this thread is answering the question of what is the mystery that Paul referenced here:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

To me, the mystery is exactly what he said it was there and nothing more. But, many pre-tribs try to say that being gathered and caught up to Christ was also a mystery before he wrote that. But, I disagree with that because Jesus already talked about a gathering to Him at His coming in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. Do you agree?

Both the living and the dead are changed in a twinkling of an eye at his coming.

We are changed so fast that you don't have time to realize you are dead to mortality and alive to immortality.


Heb 9
27 And just as it is appointed and destined for all men to die once and after this [comes certain] judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once and once for all to bear [as a burden] the sins of many, will appear a second time [when he returns to earth], not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who are eagerly and confidently waiting for Him.



The ungodly also realize their judgment in the same time frame.

Rev 21
11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them [for this heaven and earth are passing away].
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life; and the dead were judged according to what they had done as written in the books [that is, everything done while on earth].
13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and death and Hades (the realm of the dead) surrendered the dead who were in them; and they were judged and sentenced, every one according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades [the realm of the dead] were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire [the eternal separation from God].

15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.


All the books are opened in that twinkling of an eye revealing our change one way or the other.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see what you’re getting at but I think it really comes down to more of an opinion than anything else.

On this forum, I almost consider it a win if someone understands what I'm saying even if they disagree. I get my views misunderstood and misrepresented constantly on here and that gets old after awhile. To the point where I'm just glad when someone understands my view, at least. As for the passage about when the judgment occurs in relation to the end of the age, of course it's my opinion that it occurs after the age ends. I think that fits with the rest of scripture far better than thinking it's talking about it occurring before the age ends and I've explained why in detail.

If the pastor says we will sing a hymn at the end of service, everyone knows it will be during the service before they are excused to go.

If the pastor says there will be a pot luck at the end of service, everyone knows that the service itself will end, they will be excused, and then they will eat pot luck lunch.

Right. I'm not saying that it's entirely clear from the text itself. You have to consider context and also consider the rest of scripture in order to understand what the parable of the wheat and tares is about.

I don’t think a definitive conclusion can be made by just looking at those parables. I agree that the KJV would be better translated as “end of the age” like the NIV instead of “end of the world” but I think people who see the literal end of this world coinciding with the end of the age have no issue with it.

I think you can see by how I have explained how I interpret the parable, that I also believe the end of the age (aion) will coincide with the end of the world (cosmos) as we know it. So, it's not that big of a deal to me when it says "world" instead of "age" there. But, I just think it's better to use a word that indicates that it's talking about the end of time rather than the end of the world/cosmos itself. If we think of the world as the earth, I don't actually think it will end in terms of being annihilated, I think it will be renewed, resulting in the new earth. Anyway, that's all mostly semantics and nothing to make a big deal about.

Personally I think the end of the age is the end of the old covenant age which was about to vanish according to Hebrews.

I think you already know that I strongly disagree with this as we've talked about it before. I do not believe that scripture ever refers to "the old covenant age". That implies that the old covenant didn't end until 70 AD even though scripture says it was made obsolete well before that. To be made obsolete means it was no longer in effect. The blood of Christ made the old covenant obsolete and put the new covenant in effect (Hebrews 8:6-13). This is very clearly taught in scripture.

You make the mistake of not differentiating between the old covenant being made obsolete and the traces of the old covenant (the temple buildings) still being seen after the old covenant was made obsolete. Just because the temple buildings were still standing after the old covenant was made obsolete does not mean the old covenant was still in effect after being made obsolete. Being obsolete means it wasn't in effect. How could it be? Read that same chapter in Hebrews that you referenced here (chapter 8) and you can see that the better new covenant WAS ESTABLISHED already on better promises than the old covenant. The new covenant replaced the inferior old covenant upon the death and resurrection of Christ. The new covenant and old covenant could not be in effect at the same time. So, even if scripture taught such a thing as "the old covenant age", it would be said that it ended in 33 AD or so and not 70 AD.

Jesus made it clear that when He spoke about ages, He always had two ages in mind. This age and the age to come. So, when He spoke of "the end of the age" He was speaking of the end of "this age" that He was in at that time. To understand the difference between this age and the age to come you can read Luke 20:34-36. I think we've already had this discussion, so I'm not going to go into the same amount of detail about it as I normally would. I'll just say that Jesus indicated there that "this age" is the age during which people get married and they die. In contrast to the age to come which will be ushered in when the resurrection of the dead occurs. During the age to come, people will no longer get married and no longer die. So, "this age" is the temporal age that we are still living in now during which people get married and they die. The age to come in the future is the eternal age during which people will not get married and will not die. The eternal age is what we are still looking forward to that will be brought about by the second coming of Christ when He renews the heavens and earth, resulting in the new heavens and new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Both the living and the dead are changed in a twinkling of an eye at his coming.

Right. Did I give the impression that I believed otherwise? I certainly didn't intend to do that. The text of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 is clear that the last trumpet will sound and the dead will be resurrected and then they, along with the living, will all be changed at the same time. This is the mystery that Paul was revealing there. The mystery does not include that we would be gathered to Christ, as pre-tribs believe. That was already taught by Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:31 (Mark 13:27) and already taught by Paul himself in an earlier letter he wrote in 1 Thess 4:14-17.

We are changed so fast that you don't have time to realize you are dead to mortality and alive to immortality.

For sure. Are you just supporting what I said or did I give the impression that I thought otherwise? If I misspoke somewhere, I'll go and edit it because I certainly agree with everything you're saying here.

Heb 9
27 And just as it is appointed and destined for all men to die once and after this [comes certain] judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once and once for all to bear [as a burden] the sins of many, will appear a second time [when he returns to earth], not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who are eagerly and confidently waiting for Him.


The ungodly also realize their judgment in the same time frame.

Rev 21
11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them [for this heaven and earth are passing away].
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life; and the dead were judged according to what they had done as written in the books [that is, everything done while on earth].
13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and death and Hades (the realm of the dead) surrendered the dead who were in them; and they were judged and sentenced, every one according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades [the realm of the dead] were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire [the eternal separation from God].

15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.

Yes, that can be clearly seen in passages like Matthew 13:36-43 (explanation of parable in Matthew 13:24-30), Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46.

All the books are opened in that twinkling of an eye revealing our change one way or the other.

I haven't thought of Revelation 20:11-15 that way before, but I certainly believe if we can be changed that quickly (in a moment) then the other things associated with His second coming can all occur very quickly as well.

But, again, the point of the thread is simply to show what the mystery is in 1 Cor 15:51-52. Would you agree that the mystery Paul revealed was simply that we (the resurrected dead in Christ and the living who are in Christ) will all be changed to put on immortality at the last trumpet? And that the mystery did not include the dead being resurrected (that was obviously already known) or believers being gathered to Christ (also already known)?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24:29-31 & Mark 13:24-27 speaks of the future second coming of Jesus Christ and the last day resurrection of all, as explained in the wheat/tares parable in Matthew Chapter 13

Yes, that is correct. And that addresses what I said how? What does that have to do with the mystery Paul referenced in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52? Surely, the second coming of Christ was not a mystery at that point nor the last day resurrection of all people. Right?

So, in relation to the point I'm making in this thread, what would you say was the mystery that Paul revealed in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54?

 

[grafted branch]

Jesus made it clear that when He spoke about ages, He always had two ages in mind. This age and the age to come. So, when He spoke of "the end of the age" He was speaking of the end of "this age" that He was in at that time. To understand the difference between this age and the age to come you can read Luke 20:34-36.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.



Matthew calls it “the resurrection” and Luke gives us the additional information of it being an “age” and that one has to be worthy to obtain it.

There is only one resurrection that fits this description and that’s the Revelation 20 first resurrection, the unworthy rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Claiming that the Luke passage is referring to a current temporal age vs a future eternal age means that the millennium is also a future eternal age that we can’t currently participate in, based on your statement below.

The eternal age is what we are still looking forward to that will be brought about by the second coming of Christ when He renews the heavens and earth, resulting in the new heavens and new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.



Matthew calls it “the resurrection” and Luke gives us the additional information of it being an “age” and that one has to be worthy to obtain it.

There is only one resurrection that fits this description and that’s the Revelation 20 first resurrection, the unworthy rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

I actually agree that one does need to have part in the first resurrection in order to obtain the age to come, but one does not immediately obtain the age to come by way of having part in the first resurrection, which in my view, is about spiritually having part in Christ's bodily resurrection because scripture says His resurrection was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). But, we don't actually obtain the age to come bodily (which is what Jesus is talking about) until the time when the dead are bodily resurrected and that has not yet occurred. That will occur at Christ's future second coming at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:22-23;50-54, 1 Thess 4:14-17).

It seems like you are completely ignoring or forgetting that in "this age" people get married and they die and in the age to come people don't get married and don't die. You didn't address that at all.

I think you are mistakenly thinking that one can obtain the age to come (when people don't marry and don't die) only by way of bodily resurrection. No, Paul makes it clear that both the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain will all be changed at the same time to put on bodily immortality (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). So, both believers who are bodily resurrected and those who are alive and remain will obtain the eternal age to come. Obtaining the eternal age to come does not require someone to be bodily resurrected. Those who are alive and remain will be changed and put on immortality at the same time as those who are resurrected from the dead.

Claiming that the Luke passage is referring to a current temporal age vs a future eternal age means that the millennium is also a future eternal age that we can’t currently participate in, based on your statement below.

That is not true. You are not representing my view accurately, so I ask that you please take a little more time and put a little more effort into understanding what I actually believe. At the same time I will try to clarify what I believe as I have tried to do in this post.

Just ask if you have any questions about what I believe so that we can try to avoid misunderstandings like this. You did a great job of that when asking me my understanding of the order of events and such before, so just ask for clarification if you are uncertain at all about what I believe.

 

[Truth7t7]

So, in relation to the point I'm making in this thread, what would you say was the mystery that Paul revealed in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54?

The scripture is "Self Explanatory" on the mystery Paul presents, it's the future glorified body of the believers, simple and easy to read and understand, did I pass your test, smiles!

"We Shall All Be Changed"

1 Corinthians 15:51-53KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I disagree, but is not part of the point I'm making in this thread and I don't have any interest in arguing that point in this particular thread. My point is that the gathering to Christ (rapture/catching up) was not a mystery before Paul wrote about it.

Please show scripture. As Matt. 24 is contested between us- find another place where the rapture is spoken of before Paul.

I know of a passage that implies the rapture, but not specifically says it is.

Great. Nice to agree on something for a change.

I think we agree on numerous things. I bet that many of our disagreements are more about the way we were taught to say things about a subject and not the subject itself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The scripture is "Self Explanatory" on the mystery Paul presents, it's the future glorified body of the believers, simple and easy to read and understand, did I pass your test, smiles!

I agree. But, I'm not trying to test you since you are not a pre-tribber. The point of this thread is to refute the pre-trib belief that the mystery Paul was talking about was the rapture (gathering and catching up to Christ) itself, but that is not the case. Instead, the mystery is the change of our bodies to be made incorruptible and immortal when the last trumpet sounds at Christ's future second coming.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Please show scripture. As Matt. 24 is contested between us- find another place where the rapture is spoken of before Paul.

If you're going to disagree that it's referenced in Matthew 24:31, then there's not much I can do about that. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. But, I also made the point that Paul had written 1st Thessalonians a few years or so before writing 1st Corinthians. So, he had already taught about the rapture before writing 1st Corinthians 15:50-54. What are your thoughts on that?

I know of a passage that implies the rapture, but not specifically says it is.

Which is? Go ahead and share it and I promise not to argue about it if I disagree. I'm just curious.

I think we agree on numerous things.

Probably. Do you believe Jesus died for our sins and rose again? I bet you do. Do you believe Jesus is God? I bet you do. And so on.

I bet that many of our disagreements are more about the way we were taught to say things about a subject and not the subject itself.

Not sure what you mean by that. I was not taught to say things any certain way. My beliefs are from my own studies. If I went by what the church that I grew up in taught and believed, I would have entirely different beliefs than what I have.

 

[grafted branch]

It seems like you are completely ignoring or forgetting that in "this age" people get married and they die and in the age to come people don't get married and don't die. You didn't address that at all.

Well to me it’s obvious that people who are physically alive do get married but people who are physically dead don’t. If “this age” is referring to our current temporal age then I have to conclude that both physically alive and physically dead people are still getting married, up until the eternal age.

Can you address this, or explain how a physically dead person can get married?

That is not true. You are not representing my view accurately, so I ask that you please take a little more time and put a little more effort into understanding what I actually believe. At the same time I will try to clarify what I believe as I have tried to do in this post.

Alright, Luke 20:35 states that a person has to be accounted worthy to obtain the age to come. Do you agree that everyone, both good and bad, will obtain the eternal age? If so then why was the stipulation of being accounted worthy used to describe those who obtain the eternal age?

 

[Truth7t7]

I agree. But, I'm not trying to test you since you are not a pre-tribber. The point of this thread is to refute the pre-trib beliefs that the mystery Paul was talking about was the rapture (gathering and catching up to Christ) itself, but that is not the case. Instead, the mystery is the change of our bodies to be made incorruptible and immortal when the last trumpet sounds at Christ's future second coming.

We agree on this subject, the pre-trinbers do nothing more than take verses that show the second coming and try desperately to claim its a pre-trib rapture 100% error

This error is no different than posters that claim Matthew 24:21 the great tribulation took place in 70AD in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, when Matthew 24:29-31 clearly shows immediately after this tribulation the second coming takes place a "Future" event unfulfilled

Question: Do you see a 2,000 gap anywhere between Matthew 24:21 & Matthew 24:31?

Many posters run from this question, that fully exposes the false preterist teaching of a 70AD fulfillment of Matthew 24:21, what do you say as this is your belief?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If you're going to disagree that it's referenced in Matthew 24:31, then there's not much I can do about that. But, I also made the point that Paul had written 1st Thessalonians a few years or so before writing 1st Corinthians. So, he had already taught about the rapture before writing 1st Corinthians 15:50-54. What are your thoughts on that?

Well written i s one thing. But don't forget that Paul visited both [places and we just do not know what else was taught in both towns. He taught much much more than what is in the letters. So you saying the rapture preceded the mystery in Corinth is purely subjective.

Which is? Go ahead and share it and I promise not to argue about it if I disagree. I'm just curious.

John 14

King James Version

​

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Not sure what you mean by that. I was not taught to say things any certain way. My beliefs are from my own studies. If I went by what the church that I grew up in taught and believed, I would have entirely different beliefs than what I have.

Churches will use different phraseology to talk about teh same thing. In my 50 years as a believer I have seen the same subject declared with differing words, but they all mjean the same thing.