What is the mystery that Paul references in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52? Is it the rapture (catching up to Christ) as pretrib teaches or something else?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Absolutely. Its further clarified here...,

2Thess 1
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day , and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

2Tim 4
7 I have fought the good and worthy and noble fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith [firmly guarding the gospel against error]. 8 In the future there is reserved for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and longed for and welcomed His appearing.

Amen. This is called interpreting scripture with scripture which is a foreign concept to pre-trib dispensationalists.

 

[The Light]

So, which coming is the Apostle Paul a part of?

IF you are right, why did Paul only inform the Thessalonians and Corinthians in part?

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

You expect God to pinpoint His coming. Here's your pinpoint.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

This is why we are told to watch and be ready. For those that think that the rapture is AFTER the Day of the Lord.........The day of His wrath.....What are you watching for? Armageddon?

Paul informed the Thessalonian's that what he was teaching them was the Lords own word...,

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

So where did Jesus teach this other coming you propose?

You added simultaneously

That is not in the scripture. In fact the living will not precede the dead. The dead in Christ rise first. This is the barley harvest. The Lord returns for the alive that remain. This is the wheat harvest.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is the current Church being raptured. The first fold. The sheep that hear His voice now.

You continue to invent things that aren't taught in scripture anywhere. The two folds that Jesus talked about were believing Jews and believing Gentiles. Who brought them together as one through His sacrifice on the cross.

It's all nonsense to you because you don't understand that the gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal. This is the second coming.

You clearly don't understand what I believe because I agree with that. What is written there lines up with Matthew 24:29-31. But, what you don't understand is that the seals, trumpets and vials of Revelation are parallel to each other. Your chronological method of interpreting that book leads to false conclusions.

Then the 1 year wrath of God, Day of the Lord begins.

You say the day of the Lord wrath of God lasts for 1 year? Why is it described as being sudden and unexpected like a thief in the night then? Please explain that.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

What we can glean from these two passages is that the day of the Lord will come unexpectedly like a thief in the night and will bring "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape". And the "sudden destruction" will be by way of fire coming down on the entire earth. Now, explain to me how this sudden and unexpected destruction by fire can last for an entire year. Would it really take that long to burn up the earth?

Another thing that can be seen here is that the result of God's wrath at the second coming of Christ, which will burn up the heavens and the earth, is the new heavens and new earth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The word "rapture" simply means to be snatched or caught up. In this case it refers to believers being caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17). Is that the mystery that Paul is referencing here as many pre-trib adherents believe? Is that what he said was a mystery, being caught up to meet the Lord in the air? No. He specifically said that the mystery was that everyone's bodies will be changed and made incorruptible and immortal at the last trumpet. That's it. Nothing about the rapture, which specifically refers to our being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, as being a mystery. So, why do people try to say that the rapture was a mystery before Paul wrote 1st Corinthians when Paul himself didn't say that was a mystery?

Was the rapture a mystery before Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians? No, it wasn't. He had already written about the rapture in 1st Thessalonians which was written somewhere between 49-51 AD, which means he wrote that before 1st Corinthians was written (somewhere between 53-55 AD). So, the rapture itself (being caught up to meet the Lord in the air) was not a mystery when 1st Corinthians 15:51-54 was written. Paul explicitly said what the mystery was, which was that we (our bodies) will all be changed at the last trumpet. That's it.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 won't happen at the same time. That is not my point. They will happen at the same time. They both are speaking of things that will happen on the day of Christ's second coming. And, apparently, if how quickly our bodies will be changed (in a moment) is any indication, it will all happen quickly (the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the change of our bodies and the catching up to meet the Lord in the air).

Haven't read the other posts, but it is the rapture.

Not every one will die but as Paul also wrote in Thessalonians, the dead in Christ will rise and then we which are alive will be snatched up! And yes it is pre trib.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

You expect God to pinpoint His coming. Here's your pinpoint.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

This is why we are told to watch and be ready.

Do you think it helps your case when you constantly misrepresent other's views? It doesn't. It makes it look like you are either lying or you have no reading comprehension skills. Nowhere did Jeff, or any of us who see it like him, say or imply that he expects "God to pinpoint His coming".

You added simultaneously

That is not in the scripture. In fact the living will not precede the dead. The dead in Christ rise first. This is the barley harvest. The Lord returns for the alive that remain. This is the wheat harvest.

There is no basis for inserting any significant length of time (anything more than a second) between the dead in Christ rising first from the dead and then being caught up with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air. None whatsoever. Based on what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, things will be happening very quickly at that point. The dead in Christ will first rise from the dead, everyone's bodies will be changed, and then they immediately, along with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Haven't read the other posts, but it is the rapture.

Not every one will die but as Paul also wrote in Thessalonians, the dead in Christ will rise and then we which are alive will be snatched up! And yes it is pre trib.

Did you even bother reading what I said in my post? It doesn't seem like it. Do you understand that the term "rapture" refers specifically to being caught up? More will happen on that day than just us being caught up. The dead in Christ will be resurrected. And we will all have our bodies changed to be immortal. Those last 2 things are not "the rapture", they will happen in conjunction with the rapture (dead in Christ resurrected from the dead first just before the rapture/catching up to meet Christ in the air).

I am NOT saying that 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 will not happen at generally the same time that the rapture, described in 1 Thess 4:14-17, happens, as you apparently think. What I am saying instead is that the mystery Paul referred to was not us being gathered to Christ, but rather was us having our bodies changed to be immortal. Nowhere had that been taught before. But, a gathering to Christ had already previously been taught by Jesus Himself and by Paul in an earlier letter to the Thessalonians. I already covered all this in my original post, but it's very clear that you did not read it carefully at all.

 

[jeffweeder]

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

You expect God to pinpoint His coming. Here's your pinpoint.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

This is why we are told to watch and be ready. For those that think that the rapture is AFTER the Day of the Lord.........The day of His wrath.....What are you watching for? Armageddon?

Why didn't you just answer the questions?

jeffweeder said:
So, which coming is the Apostle Paul a part of?

IF you are right, why did Paul only inform the Thessalonians and Corinthians in part?

You added simultaneously

That is not in the scripture. In fact the living will not precede the dead. The dead in Christ rise first. This is the barley harvest. The Lord returns for the alive that remain. This is the wheat harvest.

Both are caught up together to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever.

5 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Did you even bother reading what I said in my post? It doesn't seem like it. Do you understand that the term "rapture" refers specifically to being caught up? More will happen on that day than just us being caught up. The dead in Christ will be resurrected. And we will all have our bodies changed to be immortal. Those last 2 things are not "the rapture", they will happen in conjunction with the rapture (dead in Christ resurrected from the dead first just before the rapture/catching up to meet Christ in the air).

I am NOT saying that 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 will not happen at generally the same time that the rapture, described in 1 Thess 4:14-17, happens, as you apparently think. What I am saying instead is that the mystery Paul referred to was not us being gathered to Christ, but rather was us having our bodies changed to be immortal. Nowhere had that been taught before. But, a gathering to Christ had already previously been taught by Jesus Himself and by Paul in an earlier letter to the Thessalonians. I already covered all this in my original post, but it's very clear that you did not read it carefully at all.

This is like what came first, the chicken or the egg.

The rapture happens and while we are caught up we will be changed. We do not know everything Paul taught the church while in Thessalonica nor in Corinth. The "mysteries" in the NT are generally things not revealed in the Old but now made known in the new.

Just be cause Thessalonians was written first does not mean Paul had not said that mystery ever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is like what came first, the chicken or the egg.

The order that things happen has nothing to do with the point I'm making in this thread. Can you understand that? What exactly did Paul say was a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52? Us being caught up to Christ? Or something else? Read it for yourself and see.

The rapture happens and while we are caught up we will be changed.

Our bodies being changed is the mystery, not our being gathered to Christ. Our being gathered to Christ was already previously (before 1st Corinthians 15 was written) talked about in Matthew 24:31 (Mark 13:27) and 1st Thessolonians 4:14-17, which was written a few years before 1st Corinthians 15:51-52.

We do not know everything Paul taught the church while in Thessalonica nor in Corinth.

Why would he teach them completely different things? He wanted all believers to have a full understanding of what he taught and what the rest of scripture taught.

The "mysteries" in the NT are generally things not revealed in the Old but now made known in the new.

Just be cause Thessalonians was written first does not mean Paul had not said that mystery ever.

What now? I don't get the sense that you are even trying to see my point.

 

[The Light]

Why didn't you just answer the questions?

jeffweeder said:
So, which coming is the Apostle Paul a part of?

The second coming

IF you are right, why did Paul only inform the Thessalonians and Corinthians in part?

But of the times and seasons brethren ye have no need that I write unto you.

Both are caught up together to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever.

Oh no. Both are not caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

The alive that remained are caught together WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[grafted branch]

This is very simple. Matthew 13:30 is about the same thing as Matthew 25:31-46. It's talking about the gathering of all people for judgment before the throne of Christ. Whereas 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is talking about believers being gathered to Him "in the air" after He descends from heaven. The passages have different contexts. If you look at Revelation 14:14-20 then you can see that it's believers gathered from the earth first and then unbelievers are physically destroyed. Right after that is when Matthew 13:30 (Matthew 25:31-46) takes place after all the dead have been resurrected (John 5:28-29).

In Matthew 13:30 the reapers are told to gather first the tares and bind them separate from the wheat and in Matthew 25:32 it says He will separate them one from another. It could make sense to say at the GWT the sheep and goats are separated by Him, then the reapers first bind the tares/goats, and finally the wheat/sheep inherit the kingdom/barn.

But Matthew 13:30 happens at the time of the harvest, not after the earth has been harvested. It seems that if Matthew 13:30, Matthew 25:31-46, and Revelation 14:14-20 all have to harmonize to one single event then something won’t line up.



So would this be the sequence of events?

1 the dead in Christ are raised up to meet in the air

2 the dead who are not in Christ are raised

3 the GWT where He places the wheat/sheep on His right hand and the tares/goats on His left

4 the harvest takes place and the tares/goats are bound first by the reapers, then the wheat/sheep inherit the kingdom/barn

This sequence doesn’t seem to make sense, since no place is found for heaven and earth at the GWT in Revelation 20:11, yet a non existent earth would get harvested.

 

[ScottA]

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The word "rapture" simply means to be snatched or caught up. In this case it refers to believers being caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17). Is that the mystery that Paul is referencing here as many pre-trib adherents believe? Is that what he said was a mystery, being caught up to meet the Lord in the air? No. He specifically said that the mystery was that everyone's bodies will be changed and made incorruptible and immortal at the last trumpet. That's it. Nothing about the rapture, which specifically refers to our being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, as being a mystery. So, why do people try to say that the rapture was a mystery before Paul wrote 1st Corinthians when Paul himself didn't say that was a mystery?

Was the rapture a mystery before Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians? No, it wasn't. He had already written about the rapture in 1st Thessalonians which was written somewhere between 49-51 AD, which means he wrote that before 1st Corinthians was written (somewhere between 53-55 AD). So, the rapture itself (being caught up to meet the Lord in the air) was not a mystery when 1st Corinthians 15:51-54 was written. Paul explicitly said what the mystery was, which was that we (our bodies) will all be changed at the last trumpet. That's it.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 won't happen at the same time. That is not my point. They will happen at the same time. They both are speaking of things that will happen on the day of Christ's second coming. And, apparently, if how quickly our bodies will be changed (in a moment) is any indication, it will all happen quickly (the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the change of our bodies and the catching up to meet the Lord in the air).

The context of 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 is stated first in verse 50, as "flesh and blood", and then the greater scope of the context is stated in verse 51 as "all." In other words, regarding the concerns of people born of flesh and blood, all will be changed at the last trump. Meaning the word is not limited to Christians, or even just to people of God.

Which before was a mystery since Daniel who said, "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2). Because he did not specify how "many", it then remained a mystery. This is due to the nature of revelations by God being "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little" (Isaiah 28:10). The problem has been, is that the word for "many" used by Daniel, was simply broad enough that the meaning could not clearly be known until it was clarified by Paul. Even now many continue to struggle with it, if not all.

As for the timing and the "trump", this too has remained a mystery. The word "trump" throughout the scriptures comes in several forms, all of which are a form of "broadcasting" or "announcing" a message from God. The last of which was shown to the apostle John who was about to write what was announce to him in the form of a little book that was sweet to the taste but caused bitterness in the pit of his stomach, that was to be sealed up until just before the end of time (Revelation 10). In other words, within the Revelation given to John, was a postscript not then revealed.

But even in a greater sense, "the last trump"--confirmed by John's account--should be considered the end of time. Which does not come for all at the end of all time, "but each one in his own order" (1 Corinthians 15:23).

Is the trump not sounding even now?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Matthew 13:30 the reapers are told to gather first the tares and bind them separate from the wheat and in Matthew 25:32 it says He will separate them one from another. It could make sense to say at the GWT the sheep and goats are separated by Him, then the reapers first bind the tares/goats, and finally the wheat/sheep inherit the kingdom/barn.

But Matthew 13:30 happens at the time of the harvest, not after the earth has been harvested.

Did you read Jesus's explanation of that parable in Matthew 13:36-43? If not, you should. It makes it much easier to understand the parable. Jesus said that "the harvest" represents "the end of the age" (Matthew 13:39). The KJV says "the end of the world" but the words "age" and "world" are translated from the Greek word "aion" and the word "age" better reflects the meaning of the word. Translating it as "world" just makes it potentially confusing because people might think it's referring to the end of the "cosmos" instead of the end of the "aion".

Anyway, after Jesus explains what each term in the parable represents (field = world/cosmos, harvest = end of the age, reapers = angels, etc.) in Matthew 13:36-39, He then said this:

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

This is very similar to what we see described in Matthew 25:31-46. The wheat are separated from the tares. The sheep are separated from the goats. Clearly the same event, in my opinion. Especially when you see the description of the tares being cast "into a furnace of fire".

If that doesn't remind you of the following, I don't know what to tell you:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

It seems that if Matthew 13:30, Matthew 25:31-46, and Revelation 14:14-20 all have to harmonize to one single event then something won’t line up.

I agree. But, Revelation 14:14-20 is not the same event as Matthew 13:30 and Matthew 25:31-46, as I have shown. Revelation 14:14-20 is not a reference to the judgment, but rather to what will happen to believers and unbelievers immediately after Jesus descends from heaven. As Paul taught in 1 Thess 4:14-17, the dead in Christ will be resurrected at that point and they, along with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up to meet Christ in the air. That is portrayed symbolically by Revelation 14:14-16. Then, living unbelievers will all be physically killed, as 1 Thess 5:2-3 indicates (cross reference with 2 Peter 3:10-12). That is what is portrayed symbolically in Revelation 14:17-20.

So would this be the sequence of events?

1 the dead in Christ are raised up to meet in the air

2 the dead who are not in Christ are raised

3 the GWT where He places the wheat/sheep on His right hand and the tares/goats on His left

4 the harvest takes place and the tares/goats are bound first by the reapers, then the wheat/sheep inherit the kingdom/barn

This sequence doesn’t seem to make sense, since no place is found for heaven and earth at the GWT in Revelation 20:11, yet a non existent earth would get harvested.

I believe you are taking the term "the harvest" too literally. Jesus said "the harvest" represents the end of the age. Don't read any more into it than that. When He talks about things happening "in the time of harvest" He's simply talking about what will happen at the end of the age.

So, in my view, this will be the sequence of events on the day of Christ's second coming (if 1 Cor 15:51-52 is any indication, this all will happen quickly in succession):

1. Jesus, His angels, and the souls of the dead in Christ will descend from heaven (1 Thess 4:14, 2 Thess 1:7, Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, Rev 19:11-21) with the sound of the last trumpet (trumpet of God, seventh trumpet of Revelation).

2. What happens first after that is that the dead in Christ are resurrected from the dead (1 Thess 4:16, 1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:52).

3. All believers from all-time, including the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain, have their bodies changed to be incorruptible and immortal (1 Cor 15:50-54). The souls of the dead in Christ unite with their changed bodies at the same time.

4. The resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain are gathered and caught up together to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27).

5. Living unbelievers are all physically killed as the heavens and earth are burned up (1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Matt 24:35-39, Rev 14:17-20, Rev 19:17-18, Rev 20:9).

6. Dead unbelievers are resurrected (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29).

7. The saved and lost are all gathered and separated (Matthew 13:30, Matthew 25:31-33) with the sheep (same people as the wheat) being put on the right hand of Jesus when He is on the throne and the goats (same as the tares) being put on the left.

8. The sheep (saved) inherit "eternal life" in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matthew 25:34) on the new earth (2 Peter 3:13, Rev 21:1-7).

9. The goats (unsaved/lost) are cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41) for "everlasting punishment" (Matt 25:46) that will result in "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Thess 1:9). That "everlasting fire" is also known as "the furnace of fire" (Matt 13:43,50) and "the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15).

 

[grafted branch]

Did you read Jesus's explanation of that parable in Matthew 13:36-43? If not, you should. It makes it much easier to understand the parable. Jesus said that "the harvest" represents "the end of the age" (Matthew 13:39).

Yes, I did read that. I don’t have an issue equating Matthew 13:24-30 with Matthew 25:31-46.

The KJV says "the end of the world" but the words "age" and "world" are translated from the Greek word "aion" and the word "age" better reflects the meaning of the word. Translating it as "world" just makes it potentially confusing because people might think it's referring to the end of the "cosmos" instead of the end of the "aion".

Yes, I completely agree, it’s at the end of the age. Do you agree that the harvest takes place before the age actually ends?

I agree. But, Revelation 14:14-20 is not the same event as Matthew 13:30 and Matthew 25:31-46, as I have shown. Revelation 14:14-20 is not a reference to the judgment, but rather to what will happen to believers and unbelievers immediately after Jesus descends from heaven. As Paul taught in 1 Thess 4:14-17, the dead in Christ will be resurrected at that point and they, along with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up to meet Christ in the air. That is portrayed symbolically by Revelation 14:14-16. Then, living unbelievers will all be physically killed, as 1 Thess 5:2-3 indicates (cross reference with 2 Peter 3:10-12). That is what is portrayed symbolically in Revelation 14:17-20.

Ok, fair enough, even if Revelation 14:14-20 isn’t the same event as Matthew 13:30, it still takes place prior to the earth being burned up. Revelation 14:16 says the sickle is thrust onto the earth and the earth is reaped. It wouldn’t be possible to reap a burned up earth after the 2 Peter 3:10 event.

I believe you are taking the term "the harvest" too literally. Jesus said "the harvest" represents the end of the age. Don't read any more into it than that. When He talks about things happening "in the time of harvest" He's simply talking about what will happen at the end of the age.

So, in my view, this will be the sequence of events on the day of Christ's second coming (if 1 Cor 15:51-52 is any indication, this all will happen quickly in succession):

Right, I agree with you on this. The problem remains as to how the Matthew 13:30 and Matthew 13:40 tares being gathered first during the end of the age or harvest fits with the GWT judgement, which appears to happen after the age ends.

You have Matthew 13:30 happening on your sequence number 7. Where does the GWT fit? Do you have the GWT happening before the end of the age?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, I did read that. I don’t have an issue equating Matthew 13:24-30 with Matthew 25:31-46.

Okay, cool.

Yes, I completely agree, it’s at the end of the age. Do you agree that the harvest takes place before the age actually ends?

Again, "the harvest" simply represents "the end of the age". That's it. It's the end of the age. Harvest = end of the age. You are still trying to read more into it than that for some reason. But, that's what Jesus said: "The harvest is the end of the age".

Matthew 13:37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

So, to me, your question reads like this: "Do you agree that the end of the age takes place before the end of the age"? Which would obviously be a ridiculous question. And I know you don't mean to ask that, so I'm going to assume what you really mean to ask is "Do you agree that the gathering of the wheat and tares occurs before the age actually ends?". Or, in other words, "Do you agree that the gathering of the wheat and tares occurs right at the end of the age and then the age actually ends right after that?". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you're asking something to that effect.

And my answer to that question is no. I believe the end of the age is equivalent to the end of time. I believe Jesus talked about 2 ages, with one being this temporal age we live in now during which people get married and they die and the age to come being the eternal age of the new heavens and new earth during which people will no longer get married and no longer die (Luke 20:34-36, Revelation 21:1-4).

In my view once Jesus physically destroys all of His enemies (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:17-18, Rev 20:9) and burns up and renews the heavens and the earth (2 Peter 3:10-12) then it will be the end of the age and the end of time. Eternity will be ushered in at that point and I believe the judgment occurs in the realm of eternity rather than in the realm of time. And the following supports that:

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

Ok, fair enough, even if Revelation 14:14-20 isn’t the same event as Matthew 13:30, it still takes place prior to the earth being burned up. Revelation 14:16 says the sickle is thrust onto the earth and the earth is reaped. It wouldn’t be possible to reap a burned up earth after the 2 Peter 3:10 event.

Right. I agree. By the way, I like the tone of this discussion. I know we have had heated discussions before about other things, but I like this much better. Let's try to keep it this way even if we disagree on some things. I'm talking to myself here as much as I'm talking to you.

Right, I agree with you on this. The problem remains as to how the Matthew 13:30 and Matthew 13:40 tares being gathered first during the end of the age or harvest fits with the GWT judgement, which appears to happen after the age ends.

I don't believe that Matthew 13:30 happens during the end of the age. I believe it happens right after this age ends and happens in the realm of eternity, as I explained earlier.

You have Matthew 13:30 happening on your sequence number 7. Where does the GWT fit? Do you have the GWT happening before the end of the age?

That is when I believe the GWT judgment occurs (numbers 7 through 9 all relate to the GWT judgment). So, I do not have it happening before the end of the age.

So, to summarize, sequence numbers 1 through 6 occur up to the end of the age, and then sequence numbers 7 through 9 happen as part of the GWT judgment that occurs after the age has ended in eternity. I suppose assigning sequence numbers to things happening in eternity doesn't necessarily make any sense, but I'm just trying to give an idea of how I differentiate between the different things that are said to happen.

 

[Douggg]

What I am saying instead is that the mystery Paul referred to was not us being gathered to Christ, but rather was us having our bodies changed to be immortal.

i.e. the redemption of our bodies.

I am looking up, my redemption draws near. We are the parable of the fig tree generation.

Luke 21:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Taken]

What is the mystery that Paul references in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52? Is it the rapture (catching up to Christ) as pretrib teaches or something else?

1 Cor 15:
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The mystery IS THAT ALL DEATH SHALL CEASE….(and WHEN) is AFTER Mortals no longer Exist.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[grafted branch]

By the way, I like the tone of this discussion. I know we have had heated discussions before about other things, but I like this much better. Let's try to keep it this way even if we disagree on some things. I'm talking to myself here as much as I'm talking to you.

Im all for that, let’s put all past debates behind us, we are brothers in Christ.

I don't believe that Matthew 13:30 happens during the end of the age. I believe it happens right after this age ends, as I explained earlier.

Ok, I had to read your post several times and thought about it. I think there is a big difference between the translations that might be causing an issue. I know from past conversations you like to use NIV. I prefer KJV but no translation is perfect.



Matthew 13:30 (NIV) Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’

Matthew 13:30 (KJV) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.



NIV says “at that time” while KJV says “in the time of harvest”. If the angels gather in the harvest or in the end of the age then that could be interpreted as a completely different time than if they gather at the time, which could mean after the harvest.

This may be one of those things that isn’t clear in the Greek but I’m going to look into it, I just thought I would post this first to see if you’ve already come across this issue.

 

[Truth7t7]

Edit: Adding a note at the beginning of this post for clarification, since it seems that a few people are not understanding the point I'm making in this thread. The point of this thread is not to try to say that 1st Corinthians 15:51-52 does not happen at generally the same time as the rapture (being gathered and caught up to Christ), as if 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Cor 15:50-54 are completely different events that happen at entirely different times. That is not what I believe. I believe those passages describe things that will happen at generally the same time (with maybe only a moment of time between the dead in Christ being resurrected, then all being changed, and then all being caught up) during the same one event, the second coming of Christ. Instead, the point of the thread is to determine what part of the things that will occur on that day was a mystery as of the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The word "rapture" simply means to be snatched or caught up. In this case it refers to believers being caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17). Is that the mystery that Paul is referencing here as many pre-trib adherents believe? Is that what he said was a mystery, being caught up to meet the Lord in the air? No. He specifically said that the mystery was that everyone's bodies will be changed and made incorruptible and immortal at the last trumpet. That's it. Nothing about the rapture, which specifically refers to our being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, as being a mystery. So, why do people try to say that the rapture was a mystery before Paul wrote 1st Corinthians when Paul himself didn't say that was a mystery?

Was the rapture a mystery before Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians? No, it wasn't. He had already written about the rapture in 1st Thessalonians which was written somewhere between 49-51 AD, which means he wrote that before 1st Corinthians was written (somewhere between 53-55 AD). So, the rapture itself (being caught up to meet the Lord in the air) was not a mystery when 1st Corinthians 15:51-54 was written. Paul explicitly said what the mystery was, which was that we (our bodies) will all be changed at the last trumpet. That's it.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 won't happen at the same time. That is not my point. They will happen at the same time. They both are speaking of things that will happen on the day of Christ's second coming. And, apparently, if how quickly our bodies will be changed (in a moment) is any indication, it will all happen quickly (the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the change of our bodies and the catching up to meet the Lord in the air).

It's simply the second coming, in the last day resurrection and catching up of God's people (The End) eternity begins

 

[quietthinker]

Edit: Adding a note at the beginning of this post for clarification, since it seems that a few people are not understanding the point I'm making in this thread. The point of this thread is not to try to say that 1st Corinthians 15:51-52 does not happen at generally the same time as the rapture (being gathered and caught up to Christ), as if 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Cor 15:50-54 are completely different events that happen at entirely different times. That is not what I believe. I believe those passages describe things that will happen at generally the same time (with maybe only a moment of time between the dead in Christ being resurrected, then all being changed, and then all being caught up) during the same one event, the second coming of Christ. Instead, the point of the thread is to determine what part of the things that will occur on that day was a mystery as of the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The word "rapture" simply means to be snatched or caught up. In this case it refers to believers being caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17). Is that the mystery that Paul is referencing here as many pre-trib adherents believe? Is that what he said was a mystery, being caught up to meet the Lord in the air? No. He specifically said that the mystery was that everyone's bodies will be changed and made incorruptible and immortal at the last trumpet. That's it. Nothing about the rapture, which specifically refers to our being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, as being a mystery. So, why do people try to say that the rapture was a mystery before Paul wrote 1st Corinthians when Paul himself didn't say that was a mystery?

Was the rapture a mystery before Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians? No, it wasn't. He had already written about the rapture in 1st Thessalonians which was written somewhere between 49-51 AD, which means he wrote that before 1st Corinthians was written (somewhere between 53-55 AD). So, the rapture itself (being caught up to meet the Lord in the air) was not a mystery when 1st Corinthians 15:51-54 was written. Paul explicitly said what the mystery was, which was that we (our bodies) will all be changed at the last trumpet. That's it.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 won't happen at the same time. That is not my point. They will happen at the same time. They both are speaking of things that will happen on the day of Christ's second coming. And, apparently, if how quickly our bodies will be changed (in a moment) is any indication, it will all happen quickly (the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the change of our bodies and the catching up to meet the Lord in the air).

1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians are speaking of the same event namely the resurrection of the righteous dead (sleep) at the second coming of Jesus. Jesus also speaks of it in Matthew 24: 30-31

Breaking these scriptures up into different events in my view is an error and only makes a mess of something straightforward.

The mystery Paul speaks of he clarifies in 1 Corinthians, namely there is no need for anxiety about loved ones (believers) who have died before Jesus returns. These are 'asleep' in the grave till the resurrection morning where eternal life will be bestowed on them.
The text itself is clear. It only becomes unclear when one interprets Corinthians, Thessalonians and Matthew as seperate or semi seperate events.