The social gospel?

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Eternally Grateful

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Amen brother. (had to remove some of your post due to the length) Without the shedding of blood there is not remission of sins: The wages of sin is death....therefore atonement costs a life, a life for a life....and life is in the blood. Never understood it before, but I think that is why Abel's offering was accepted by God and Cain's wasn't....Able understood what his "just desserts" were, that it required the shedding of blood, while Cain's offering was only a token, he had no remorse for his sinful state and so didn't see the need for a greater sacrifice. And by dying is how Jesus fulfilled the Law in our place, which required blood...with His once for all sacrifice.

The Lord's supper reminds us of this wonderful truth, of the gracious magnanimity of His grace that was poured out, given to us, at the same time as it is a humble reminder of our just desserts.
If the law taught anything it is this

Look at Adam, They sinned, what Did God do to cover them, He killed an animal or two to cover them.

There is atonement in the very beginning..

yet people still want to try to atone themselves.
 
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Lizbeth

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Forgiven (05545)(salach) means to free from or release from something and so to pardon, to forgive, to spare. God's offer of pardon and forgiveness to sinners. Salach is never used of people forgiving each other but used of God forgiving. Jehovah Himself announces, in response to Moses' prayers for Israel, that He has forgiven Israel at two of their darkest moments, the golden calf incident and the murmuring at Kadesh Barnea (Ex 34:9; Nu 14:19-20).

Vine adds that "The basic meaning (of salach) undergoes no change throughout the Old Testament. God is always the subject of “forgiveness.” No other Old Testament verb means “to forgive,” although several verbs include “forgiveness” in the range of meanings given a particular context (e.g., naca and awon in Ex. 32:32; kapar in Ezek. 16:63)… Most occurrences of calach are in the sacrificial laws of Leviticus and Numbers. In the typology of the Old Testament, sacrifices foreshadowed the accomplished work of Jesus Christ, and the Old Testament believer was assured of “forgiveness” based on sacrifice (see Nu 15:25, 28)… he mediators of the atonement were the priests who offered the sacrifice. The sacrifice was ordained by God to promise ultimate “forgiveness” in God’s sacrifice of His own Son. Moreover, sacrifice was appropriately connected to atonement, as there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood (Lev. 4:20; cf. Heb. 9:22). Out of His grace, God alone “forgives” sin. The Israelites experienced God’s “forgiveness” in the wilderness and in the Promised Land. As long as the temple stood, sacrificial atonement continued and the Israelites were assured of God’s “forgiveness.” When the temple was destroyed and sacrifices ceased, God sent the prophetic word that He graciously would restore Israel out of exile and “forgive” its sins (Jer. 31:34).

The Septuagint (Lxx) translates salach with the Greek verb aphiemi (see word study) in all 9 uses of salach in the book of Leviticus. The verb aphiemi (from apo = prefix implies separation + hiemi = put in motion, send; See also study on noun aphesis) conveys the basic idea of an action which causes separation and means to send from one's self, to forsake, to hurl away, to put away, let alone, disregard, put off. It depicts an action which causes separation that results in total detachment, total separation, from a previous location or condition. In secular Greek aphiemi initially conveyed the sense of to throw and in one secular writing we read "let the pot drop" (aphiemi). From this early literal use the word came to mean leave or let go. Aphiemi basically means to send away and was used to indicate the legal repayment or cancellation of a debt or the granting of a pardon. It is used in Scripture to refer to God’s forgiveness of sin. Through the shedding of His own blood, Jesus Christ actually took the sins of the world upon His own head, as it were, and carried them an infinite distance away from where they could never return. That is the extent of the forgiveness of our trespasses.

Salach - 46x in NAS - Salach is translated as - forgive(19), forgiven(13), pardon(12), pardoned(2), pardons(1). Ex 34:9; Lev 4:20, 26, 31, 35; 5:10, 13, 16, 18; 6:7; 19:22; Num 14:19f; 15:25f, 28; 30:5, 8, 12; Dt 29:20; 1Sa 15:25; 1 Kgs 8:30, 34, 36, 39, 50; 2 Kgs 5:18; 24:4; 2 Chr 6:21, 25, 27, 30, 39; 7:14; Ps 25:11; 103:3; Isa 55:7; Jer 5:1, 7; 31:34; 33:8; 36:3; 50:20; Lam 3:42; Dan 9:19; Amos 7:2

The first use is notable, where Moses intercedes for the rebellious nation of Israel…

Ex 34:9 And he said, “If now I have found favor in Thy sight, O Lord, I pray, let the Lord go along in our midst, even though the people are so obstinate; and do Thou pardon (Lxx = aphaireo = take away, remove) our iniquity and our sin, and take us as Thine own possession.”

Other representative uses (if you have time, consider studying all 46 uses above for a fuller understand of pardon and forgiveness in the OT)…

Ps 25:11 For Thy name’s sake, O LORD, Pardon my iniquity, for it is great.

Ps 103:3 Who pardons all your iniquities; Who heals all your diseases;

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

Walter Kaiser has an excellent summary on salach…One of the greatest evangelical notes in the OT is struck by this word: forgiveness and pardon from the very God of forgiveness. It also raises the greatest problem as well: What was the nature of this forgiveness? Hebrews seems to state just as categorically that OT forgiveness was ineffective and impossible (Heb 9:9; Heb 10:4). The resolution is clear. In the first place, Jehovah himself announces, in response to Moses’ prayers for Israel, that he has forgiven Israel at two of their darkest moments, the golden calf incident and the murmuring at Kadesh Barnea (Ex 34:9; Num 14:19–20). In the second place, on the basis of Mosaic legislation, real atonement and forgiveness were available for all sins except those of the defiant and unrepentant sinner (Num 15:30–31) who “despised the word of the Lord.” The claim is made repeatedly (Lev 4:20, 26, 31, 35, 5:10, 13, 16, 18, 26; 19:22) that when atonement was made, the sinner’s sins were forgiven. For all such sins as lying, theft, perjury, fraud (Lev 6:1–7), or those “against any of the Commandments of the Lord” (Lev 4:2), it was possible to obtain divine pardon. Rather than being excluded, these sins were specifically included in God’s provision for the ot believer along with “sins of ignorance” (Nu 15:25, 26, 28). As if to emphasize the point, it is stated repeatedly that on the Day of Atonement, “all the iniquities” and sins of Israel were atoned (Lev 16:21, 30, 32, 34). But the individual Israelites had to properly “humble themselves” in true confession (Lev 16:29, 31). This is the kind of forgiveness which Solomon prayed would be available to all as he led a prayer of dedication for the temple (1Kgs 8:30, 34, 39, 50, and its parallel in 2Chr 6). Amos requested it for Judah (Amos 7:2) as did Daniel (Da 9:19). However, at times Israel was not pardoned (Dt 29:19; La 3:42). So exciting was the openness of this offer of forgiveness that Isaiah (Isa 55:7) featured it as the heart of his invitation to salvation. So ready was their Lord to forgive, that Isaiah’s listeners must forget all notions based on the reluctance of men to forgive each other. The experience of forgiveness in the OT was personally efficacious, although objectively the basis and grounds of that forgiveness awaited the death of Christ. Other terms used for forgiveness stressed the ideas of wiping out or blotting out the memory of the sin (māâ), covering or concealing the record of the sin (kāsâ), lifting up and removal of sin (nāśā), passing by of sin (ābar), and pardoning on the basis of a substitute (kāpar in the Piel q.v.). Three texts in Jeremiah, 31:34; 33:8; 50:20, celebrate a future forgiveness of our Lord in connection with the New Covenant and ultimately his second coming. (Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament).

Amen. I think of times when the Lord wasn't accepting Israel's sacrifices...when they were living in sin and no longer following the Lord in sincerity. That is an "ensample" and warning to the church as well..... a picture of how God may no longer accept our sacrifice (Lamb of God) either if we "keep on wilfully sinning". The modern church is in trouble if they think they can just live as they please like the world does and expect to inherit eternal life. Thank you Lord.....so we see how this in no way undermines or takes away from the riches of His wonderful grace that did and does come to us through the cross of Christ....as long as we don't likewise fall away but follow Him in sincerity. Amen and praise the Lord for his word that gives light to our path.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Unbelievable-shockingly so!
I am amazed that there are some who does not understand this basic biblical truth.

the wage of sin is death

the gift of God is life

we are not born again into adults. we are born again as babes, needing to lean and grow in Christ.

Many, like paul will get very high, but even he said he continued to run, because he has not made it yet.

Many, like the corinthian church, were still babes, needing fed milk.

The christian life is a journey, but if we have not been born again, Its not even the christian life.
 
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Johann

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I am amazed that there are some who does not understand this basic biblical truth.

the wage of sin is death

the gift of God is life

we are not born again into adults. we are born again as babes, needing to lean and grow in Christ.

Amy, like paul will get very high, but even he said he continued to run, because he has not made it yet.

Amny, like the corinthian church, were still babes, needing fed milk.

The christian life is a journey, but if we have not been born again, Its not even the christian life.
Ever read Pilgrims Progress? A amazing classical piece of work!
J.
 
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Lizbeth

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If the law taught anything it is this

Look at Adam, They sinned, what Did God do to cover them, He killed an animal or two to cover them.

There is atonement in the very beginning..

yet people still want to try to atone themselves.
Amen...the gospel is preached from beginning to end! The mystery of God from the foundation of the world.
 

Episkopos

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Amen...the gospel is preached from beginning to end! The mystery of God from the foundation of the world.
A part of that mystery is why the people chose Barabbas rather than Jesus. People prefer amnesty and forgiveness to sacrifice and holiness. That's how God selects His people. We reveal ourselves by our choices.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Anything spiritual, to him, was to be taken as a metaphor...a philosophy
Just a few comments. Kind of random thoughts. My husband and I were just talking about this last night. How obviously there are metaphors in the bible. But metaphors are metaphors. To me it’s a weak word “metaphor” used to describe “you must eat My flesh and drink My blood”. To me it goes beyond common metaphors because I’ve never seen metaphors that contain Life itself. I’ve never seen mere metaphors contain Spirit. As Jesus Christ said “My words are Spirit, they are life.” Yes…if we’d go into literature classes (Imo) and theres the great writers of classics being studied for metaphors …personally metaphors is a weak word to describe His parables or proverbs when He said “I’ll speak to no more in parables and proverbs but show you plainly the Father.”


Gandhi said...I love your Christ, not your Christians. Gandhi was exposed to the charlatan aspect of Christianity that did NOTHING to follow Christ but rather used Him as an idol to worship and a religious ideological claim to be "going to heaven" in an afterlife by simply "accepting" Him. Gandhi found that to be "anti-Christian".
Reminds of where everyone is a friend to a gift giver. It’s appealing and tempting …there’s gifts? Well sign me up! I’ll take a free gift. I use to work at Lowe’s and when they told us they were cleaning out inventory and giving it away free to us workers …I didn’t even bother trying to get what was free because of the pushing and shoving. It’s didn’t matter if it was packs of flowers seeds going out at the end of the season or grills…as long as it was free it became a push and shove game. You may say…it’s not the same. But miraculous gifts …or claimed gifts…like men slapping people on their foreheads so they fall over twitching, claiming these men have been given the gift. Same thing. Everyone loves a gift giver. If something is gained immediately all the better.
Proverbs 19:6 Hebrew Text Analysis



Proverbs 19:7 Hebrew Text Analysis

The last one makes me think of Paul telling them…the more I love you the more I am hated.
Why do we not obey the One we call Lord??
Good question.
As such I weigh the ACTIONS of one extreme over the other. In the case of those who seek to follow Jesus' human side...we see so often self-sacrifice, love of others, and willingness to suffer. On the side of the hypocrites who name and claim the divine benefits of Jesus...we see assumptions and presumptions...naming and claiming...claiming to be saved by these...who REFUSE to emulate Jesus in His humanity, disdaining the human Christ by calling obedience to Him...a works salvation. As if all who obeyed Jesus did so for the same selfish reasons they were "accepting" Jesus' sacrifice for themselves. We judge others as WE are, so often.
To me Paul shows something in the Corinthians letter…where Paul is being asked to prove Christ speaks in him. Paul ends it with “we will gladly be weak, that you be made strong, this we hope, even your perfection.” How much more proof can there be? “My strength is made perfect IN weakness.” …Paul said “I’ll be weak!” That God’s strength (the power of God toward you which is Not weak) be made Perfect…in my weakness.
 
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Wrangler

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So your still going to attack me who believes the cross is gods payment for sin but let epi, who thinks it’s not payment for sin, slide

It continues. I can not trust you when you prove over and over you can not discern what others are saying.
Eli is all over the place.
Jesus didn't "pay" for people's sins. Sins are free. But Jesus always forgave sins...no need for the cross for that.

Epi, Rita said you are splitting hairs. A little discernment. When people say “Jesus paid for our sins,” they mean the consequences of our sins.

Sadly, I believe you are VERY disingenuous to proclaim “Sins are free.” Everything is free but you have to pay for it.
 

Lizbeth

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Amen. I think of times when the Lord wasn't accepting Israel's sacrifices...when they were living in sin and no longer following the Lord in sincerity. That is an "ensample" and warning to the church as well..... a picture of how God may no longer accept our sacrifice (Lamb of God) either if we "keep on wilfully sinning". The modern church is in trouble if they think they can just live as they please like the world does and expect to inherit eternal life. Thank you Lord.....so we see how this in no way undermines or takes away from the riches of His wonderful grace that did and does come to us through the cross of Christ....as long as we don't likewise fall away but follow Him in sincerity. Amen and praise the Lord for his word that gives light to our path.
Drawing this to your attention @Episkopos , in case you miss it. There is no need for US to take away or deny the wonderful foundation of His grace.......if any fall away from obeying the Lord in sincerity and expect the Atonement to avail no matter what they do and how they live, God Himself might take it away unless repentance ensues. But I want to mention also that a three fold cord is not easily broken....God doesn't give up so easily on a soul.
 
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Lizbeth

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A part of that mystery is why the people chose Barabbas rather than Jesus. People prefer amnesty and forgiveness to sacrifice and holiness. That's how God selects His people. We reveal ourselves by our choices.
Yes, but one doesn't disqualify the other.
 

Ritajanice

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Sorry @Episkopos ...you are in error my friend..the cross was needed for our sins to be forgiven.

I read what you said in wrangler post...sorry my friend I can’t agree with you..The Spirit Of God won’t allow me to...you are wrong, very wrong my friend.

Episkopos said:
Jesus didn't "pay" for people's sins. Sins are free. But Jesus always forgave sins...no need for the cross for that

I won’t abuse you over it though and I won’t argue with you over it..only God can bring that truth to your heart/ spirit..I can’t.

I wish you well.

Jesus paid the price for our sins...100% Gods truth!
 
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Johann

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Re: discernment

The only way one self-interested person is going to correct another self-interested person is if that one breaks ranks and threatens their own self-interest.

Of course my posts obliterate self-interest just like the bible does when properly read...and properly understood. So I gather all the self-interested ones together....against me. Call it a gift! :)

So if you are against my words...you can know that you care more about your own salvation than that of anyone else.

Verdict: Self-interest. He or she who seeks to save their life....
Incorrect-on all points-and you are not my savior brother-and I can discern when a person is gifted and you are not gifted in preaching or teaching.
The Bible is for YOU and you can "access" it via your wonderful experiences and divine visitations but somehow it is not "applicable" for and to us-that, and your denial of forgiveness by the cross of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
Scriptures Affirming Forgiveness by the Cross

Ephesians 1:7: "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace."

This verse explicitly states that through Jesus' blood, shed on the cross, believers receive forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 1:13-14: "For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

Here, Paul emphasizes that believers are transferred from darkness to light and receive forgiveness through Jesus.
1 Peter 2:24: "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed."

Peter explains that Jesus bore our sins on the cross ("the tree") to provide healing and righteousness to believers.
1 John 1:7: "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."

This verse highlights the purifying effect of Jesus' blood, shed on the cross, which cleanses us from all sin.
Romans 5:8-9: "But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

Paul underscores that Christ's death for sinners demonstrates God's love and provides justification and salvation.
Hebrews 9:22: "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."

This verse ties the necessity of bloodshed for forgiveness to the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus, whose blood was shed for the remission of sins.
Matthew 26:28: "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

Jesus Himself declares that His blood, shed during His crucifixion, establishes a new covenant and grants forgiveness.
Conclusion
Yes, forgiveness is obtained by the cross. Jesus' sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection are central to the Christian faith as they provide the basis for the forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God. Through His sacrifice, believers are redeemed, justified, and made righteous in the sight of God.

I really feel sorry for you @Episkopos.
J.
 
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Lizbeth

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Eli is all over the place.


Epi, Rita said you are splitting hairs. A little discernment. When people say “Jesus paid for our sins,” they mean the consequences of our sins.

Sadly, I believe you are VERY disingenuous to proclaim “Sins are free.” Everything is free but you have to pay for it.
yes, that disingenuousness is seen a lot.........and I think we have to accept that it says a lot, sadly.
 

Episkopos

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Eli is all over the place.


Epi, Rita said you are splitting hairs. A little discernment. When people say “Jesus paid for our sins,” they mean the consequences of our sins.

Sadly, I believe you are VERY disingenuous to proclaim “Sins are free.” Everything is free but you have to pay for it.
People love free stuff. Did Jesus pay for ALL your sins. Well, the bible doesn't say that. For you splitting hairs could be the difference between life and death. Not many understand spiritual things.

When the Pharisees claimed to see...Jesus condemned them. Was He not splitting hairs? I ask this to those who think they understand kingdom things.

Back to paying for sins. Wilfull sins are NOT covered by the sacrifice of Christ...and yet this thread is full of stubborn wilfull sinning. Resisting the truth. Who can discern this? Probably none here. Am I splitting hairs again?

We think that non-believers are saved by hearing the truth and turning to God. But nobody seems to consider that God is trying to get our attention....but nobody is listening. Are we experiencing what we read in Acts? Why not? People will say that God no longer wants that kind of intimacy anymore...we now have our bibles, they will say. No more spiritual gifts (or life) they will say. Splitting hairs again?

Or...IS the New Covenant about splitting us from the nature that drags us down into death? Is the gospel one of forgiveness and an after life? OR...a liberation from sin to walk as Jesus walked. Of course the deny-ers will say it is both....not understanding what a trap is.

And they say I'm splitting hairs?
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Can we see that followers of Jesus' humanity (social gospel) are challenging us to NOT be hypocritical in our witness to the world?
My husband said something the other night, and the way he said it …it stood out. “God killed an animal to clothe me.”

God killed an animal …to clothe me. Sounds like God killed an animal to clothe me with the animal, yea?
For the first time that stood out as God doesn’t kill an animal to clothe me with the animal. BUT God killed an animal to clothe me with Himself. Put on: the Fruits of the Spirit and not the animalistic nature of: Galatians 5:19-23 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Why does it matter? Because I hear Paul. If he could speak to us saying for sure: God killed an animal…to clothe me. To me that takes on a new meaning of Saul was the animal and I do think Paul would say an animal died …for Paul to be clothed in Christ. But I’m not so sure God killed the animal because of where Paul said sin killed it, but it was the Law of God which is Good and Holy that revealed the animal where by sin worked through the law …the animal was slain. Yes…to me “God killed an animal…to clothe me.” Sounds different now, much like where Joshua stood in the OT and the angel of the Lord said “is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” …”remove the filthy garments” saying “I will give him a change of clothing.”

The animal will die. ?
 
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Lizbeth

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Incorrect-on all points-and you are not my savior brother-and I can discern when a person is gifted and you are not gifted in preaching or teaching.
The Bible is for YOU and you can "access" it via your wonderful experiences and divine visitations but somehow it is not "applicable" for and to us-that, and your denial of forgiveness by the cross of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
Scriptures Affirming Forgiveness by the Cross

Ephesians 1:7: "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace."

This verse explicitly states that through Jesus' blood, shed on the cross, believers receive forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 1:13-14: "For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

Here, Paul emphasizes that believers are transferred from darkness to light and receive forgiveness through Jesus.
1 Peter 2:24: "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed."

Peter explains that Jesus bore our sins on the cross ("the tree") to provide healing and righteousness to believers.
1 John 1:7: "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."

This verse highlights the purifying effect of Jesus' blood, shed on the cross, which cleanses us from all sin.
Romans 5:8-9: "But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

Paul underscores that Christ's death for sinners demonstrates God's love and provides justification and salvation.
Hebrews 9:22: "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."

This verse ties the necessity of bloodshed for forgiveness to the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus, whose blood was shed for the remission of sins.
Matthew 26:28: "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

Jesus Himself declares that His blood, shed during His crucifixion, establishes a new covenant and grants forgiveness.
Conclusion
Yes, forgiveness is obtained by the cross. Jesus' sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection are central to the Christian faith as they provide the basis for the forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God. Through His sacrifice, believers are redeemed, justified, and made righteous in the sight of God.

I really feel sorry for you @Episkopos.
J.
Wondering if throwing out the foundation has affected Epi spiritually and that is why he is unable to grasp the paradoxes of truth that are found in scripture which can only be understood in spirit. It's not about winning arguments but I sincerely hope he reconsiders those foundational things for his own sake, because they are vital to salvation and having the spirit of Christ. And of course it will then adjust and help the rest of the "building" come into alignment.
 
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Episkopos

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Yes, but one doesn't disqualify the other.
You want to choose both Barabbas and Jesus? Of course...you want to compromise the truth. You want an assurance of amnesty... you want Jesus to die in your place...any human would. But you also don't disagree with the idea, the concept, the premise of sacrifice and holiness.

That's what separates you somewhat from the other holiness deniers. In your view, you are careful to not go against holiness...although you hold to the very same denial in practice. Is cleverness a spiritual gift?

Or...is a net and a trap just that. Those who have sympathies for Jesus even as they choose Barrabas....well they have made their choice. as reluctant as that may be. As in....man, I want to choose sacrifice over amnesty....but I'm only human.

The trap, the delusion.

God tests us, that's how we can know where our destiny lies.

The word says...lovers of pleasure MORE THAN lovers of God. It doesn't say they don't love God. These can still say they love God....they are not AGAINST God...no. Its just that they have other priorities. And for this they fail the test. Splitting hairs?

God is unrelenting...He demands our full measure in order to unlock HIS full measure. Until then we have no idea what God requires.
 

Lizbeth

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People love free stuff. Did Jesus pay for ALL your sins. Well, the bible doesn't say that. For you splitting hairs could be the difference between life and death. Not many understand spiritual things.

When the Pharisees claimed to see...Jesus condemned them. Was He not splitting hairs? I ask this to those who think they understand kingdom things.

Back to paying for sins. Wilfull sins are NOT covered by the sacrifice of Christ...and yet this thread is full of stubborn wilfull sinning. Resisting the truth. Who can discern this? Probably none here. Am I splitting hairs again?

We think that non-believers are saved by hearing the truth and turning to God. But nobody seems to consider that God is trying to get our attention....but nobody is listening. Are we experiencing what we read in Acts? Why not? People will say that God no longer wants that kind of intimacy anymore...we now have our bibles, they will say. No more spiritual gifts (or life) they will say. Splitting hairs again?

Or...IS the New Covenant about splitting us from the nature that drags down into death? Is the gospel one of forgiveness and an after life? OR...a liberation from sin to walk as Jesus walked. Of course the deny-ers will say it is both....not understanding what a trap is.

And they say I'm splitting hairs?
No we must not abuse His grace, that way leads to death......but that is not the same thing as sometimes inadvertently sinning. And I agree we must seek to be holy....I believe that means to be spiritual, no longer carnal and in the flesh. I don't disagree with all that you say, but you are too polarized in your thinking on some of these things....please try to take a step back and be willing to see what might need adjusting in some of it. It's ok to make adjustments and change our minds on things as we go along...that is how we grow and I don't believe any of us have stopped growing.
 

Wrangler

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People love free stuff. Did Jesus pay for ALL your sins. Well, the bible doesn't say that. For you splitting hairs could be the difference between life and death.
Epi, my post was not directed to ‘people’ but you.

A little humility would go a long way. Rita writes a lot of the Spirit and it is apparent you are not of the Spirit due to your glaring lack of humility.

Just admit that there are consequences, price to pay for ALL our choices, including sin.

And I’m not going to quibble with you over you introducing ALL to the point of the cross, which is how Jesus paid for (the consequences of) our sins.
 
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Lizbeth

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You want to choose both Barabbas and Jesus? Of course...you want to compromise the truth. You want an assurance of amnesty... you want Jesus to die in your place...any human would. But you also don't disagree with the idea, the concept, the premise of sacrifice and holiness.

That's what separates you somewhat from the other holiness deniers. In your view, you are careful to not go against holiness...although you hold to the very same denial in practice. Is cleverness a spiritual gift?

Or...is a net and a trap just that. Those who have sympathies for Jesus even as they choose Barrabas....well they have made their choice. as reluctant as that may be. As in....man, I want to choose sacrifice over amnesty....but I'm only human.

The trap, the delusion.

God tests us, that's how we can know where our destiny lies.

The word says...lovers of pleasure MORE THAN lovers of God. It doesn't say they don't love God. These can still say they love God....they are not AGAINST God...no. Its just that they have other priorities. And for this they fail the test. Splitting hairs?

God is unrelenting...He demands our full measure in order to unlock HIS full measure. Until then we have no idea what God requires.
Of course not choosing Barabbas over Jesus brother. I'm talking about forgiveness versus holiness. The grace of God and seeking holiness are not mutually exclusive. Hope you are not being disingenuous again. That is not indicative of someone willing to be honest.

Though I "don't disagree" with the rest of your post in principle.
 
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