The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[The Light]

The hour or the day we don't know but the season ... God gives us the signs I spoke of. Additionally Gen. 1:14 speaks of the constellations, sun and moon as signs.

There is a reason we are told to watch.
Rev 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Last night we just had a blood moon. All eclipses were seen in Jerusalem as well.

I'm not seeing any blood moons scheduled in 2024. What am I missing?

How many trumpets are blown during that feast in how many cities by how many trumpeters? Which one gets the honor?

There are traditionally 100 trumpets blasts. With the last one being long and loud.

The SEVEN TRUMPETS OF REVELATION ARE NOT BLOWN BY PEOPLE, THEY ARE BLOWN BY ANGELS. HELLO.

I don't care about the 7 trumpets of Revelation. They are the wrath of God. We should be looking for the two raptures before the wrath of God as we are not appointed to wrath. 1 Thes 4 is the trump of God which is the voice of God. And the last trump of 1 Cor 15 Is blown on the feast of Trumpets the fall harvest feast.
1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Cor 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Really. Let's look at Rev. 10:7 :"The mystery of God would be finished"
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Sounds pretty significant to me.

You have the Church going through the wrath of God. You cannot be correct. We are not appointed to wrath

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Oh, I know the Pre-Tribers look at Rev. 4:1 when John is taken up to heaven as the event? No, God is just calling John to come up and see.

Except we have 24 elders with crowns in Rev 4 and we see the Church in heaven in Rev 5. That should tell you Jesus has come.

Rev 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

70 weeks? Yep, Jesus came, died and rose.
Finished trangression? He died and we died to sin. Certainly this only applies to believers.
Make an end of sins? Without the Law, there is no sin. Spiritually, we are under Grace. Of course until we physically die, sin still dwells in our members, but spiritually, if we died today, we would be presented to The Father in Heaven spotless.
 Reconciation with God was and is the purpose of life. We are reconciled to God through Christ.
Everlasting rightwousness? Jesus brought righteousness, He fulfilled the requirements of the Law for us and thereby inputing righteousness to us.
Seal up vision and prophecy? The Bible is complete, filled with His Word. It was sealed up until the timenm of His return, which is this generation.

The 70 weeks are not complete. The 70th week is about Daniels people and the time of Jacobs trouble. It is a time when part of Israel has their blindness removed.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

Where do you get your beliefs from? Judaism? Who does scripture say is the bride of Christ? Israel? Or the church?

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

Clearly, the bride of Christ is the church, not Israel. You are not interpreting Revelation 19 in a way that lines up with other scripture. Do you never take other scripture into account when interpreting any given verse or passage?

Clearly the church is the body of Christ.

"Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior."

The church is the bride waiting in heaven, not the wife waiting in heaven.

Where does Revelation 19 explicitly state those on white horses are the church? Where does Revelation 7 and 14 explicitly state the 144k are the church, the bride of Christ? Where in Ephesians does it say the church is 144k individuals?

Does Jesus literally even have a wedding, or is this just symbolic? Does God not choose a remnant of Israel even though they went whoring after other gods?

One can say the OT was the marriage contract with Israel. One can say the NT was the marriage contract with the church. Both contracts are null and void, if the bride becomes apostate and walks away from God, no? But that is metaphor, no?

Does this verse say God "renews" His covenant with Israel? Jeremiah 31:31

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"

In the metaphor, is this a new wedding with Israel and Judah, or do you switch up the whole thought and insert, of your own opinion, the NT and the church, even though this is a metaphor, and may have nothing to do with the first coming, but Jesus coming as King instead of Messiah?

You do understand that the Prince to come part has not yet happened, not even in 70AD, right? Daniel 9 is not yet fulfilled, even though you demand that Jesus was already placed as Israel's King after Jesus rose from the dead. You just spiritualize the point, thinking Jesus does not have to be physically on the earth. How would that have worked out if Jesus did not have to physically die on the Cross either? Paul says it will happen after the fulness of the Gentiles:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Jeremiah even used the marriage metaphor as a husband. This wedding with Israel is not with the church. The church is the fulness of the Gentiles including many of Jacob, but that is not the same as the covenant directly with Israel, after the church is removed. Not something that takes place before the church is removed, as in some post wedding event rapture. Jesus is declared King at the 7th Trumpet. Last I checked, the 7th Trumpet has not sounded yet. Perhaps you have applied that to the first century some how?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So are the 24 elders firstfruits from the first century or not? Make up your mind.

LOL!!!!!!! Why do I have to make up my mind about that? Can the truth of this matter of whether or not there is such thing as a pre-trib rapture only be determined by determining who the 24 elders are? LOL!!!!! Certainly not. You are unbelievably ridiculous.

Your approach to interpreting scripture is just horrible. The foundation of your doctrine is upon highly debatable passages like this instead of clear, straightforward scripture. That is unwise.

Each in their own order: Christ, the firstfruits.

"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits."

Who are firstfruits at the Cross, other than 12 elders from the OT and 12 from the NT? Those 24 elders if they are firstfruits have been there since the first century, no?

Paul said that Christ Himself is the firstfruits.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

This very specifically indicates that Christ Himself had "become the firstfruits" by way of His resurrection from the dead. The firstfruits of who or what? Them that slept. The dead in Christ (see 1 Thess 4:14,16). The Greek word translated as "firstfruits" can also mean "firstfruit". That it says "firstfruits" is throwing you off, making you think it is talking about firstfruits (plural) but it very clearly calls Christ Himself the firstfruits. It should have been translated as firstfruit instead to avoid confusion.

The 144k are sealed at the Second Coming, not people thousands of years ago. They are the Second Coming firstfruits. You, the church are the lastfruits, if you take WPM seriously.

You are the one making them the lastfruits if you relate it to the second coming. To me, they are the same firstfruits of the twelve tribes of Israel that James mentions in James 1:18 and they have been in heaven with Jesus a long time already. In our view, they truly are the firstfruits, but in yours they are the lastfruits.

 

[Timtofly]

1st, I would agree that Christians are saved from *something!* This doesn't mean Christians will be Raptured away from the earth before a time when Antichrist will persecute Christians. Christians have suffered persecution from pagans throughout history, without any Rapture away from the time of trouble.

Christians are indeed saved *from eternal judgment* that will take place when Christ comes a 2nd time. None of this has anything to do with escape from the earth before Antichrist arrives. We are saved from God's *eternal wrath* in Outer Darkness.

2nd, I would agree that Jesus used the Flood story to compare with his 2nd Coming. The world is going to be judged for its wickednesss en mass. This is like the Flood that massively destroyed the population of mankind on earth. This is comparable.

When I say there is no evidence that the Flood projects the idea of a *Pretribulational deliverance,* I'm talking about the lack of explicit points in Jesus' comparison indicating that Christians will escape the tribulation associated with Antichrist's persecution.

Clearly, the book of Revelation indicates the Antichrist persecutes Christians. So any notion of escape by Rapture of a large group of Christians is simply lacking in the narrative.

You may indeed see pictures of the Church in heaven scattered throughout the narrative of Antichrist's reign in the book of Revelation. But in no place are we told that Christians are depicted as being in heaven due to a Rapture at Christ's Coming. We would have to speculate as such--it is not explicit doctrinal truth.

How do you explain that the time given to Satan is after the 7th Trumpet sounds? This term Antichrist that you use is not even found in the book of Revelation. So where do you put this figure? The first seal? The only reign of evil is the 8th kingdom after Jesus is declared the 7th Kingdom at the 7th Trumpet. Unless you can prove 8 comes before 7, Jesus is recognized by all the nations, He is now their King. This happens prior to Satan being made King.

If Jesus is not on the earth, how do people recognize Him as King? How would the President of the United States be president from heaven? How would the subjects communicate with a King not on the earth?

What do you mean the church is not currently in heaven? Where are they?


What verse states billions of people from heaven come to the earth to live forever, as you put it? Does Jesus not come to earth at the Second Coming? Where in Zechariah 14 does it say that God is going to fill the earth with billions of people from the last 6,000 years of humanity?

Even Paul says we meet in the air. No verse says we come to earth, does it? Heaven is the home of the church, not earth. Hebrews 11 points that out.

"For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

"For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

They may have returned to earth, but could not. When does this city, John calls the New Jerusalem, come down? Before the Millennium or after? If they are not on earth now, why would they leave that city before the city itself comes to earth?

 

[Timtofly]

There are no English paragraphs, but the ancient Hebrew did have indicators of something like paragraphs. However, none of this proves the point either of us wishes to make. This is not a hill I will die on. You may be right that Noah entered the ark, and 7 days later the Flood came. Or, I may be right that Noah took 7 days getting the animals on board and was locked in after 7 days, at which time the Flood began.

It makes little difference. There is no parallel with the 2nd Coming except that Christians are preserved by their faith in the resurrection while the world will be eternally judged at Christ's 2nd Coming and removed from the new earth. 7 Days do not mark a supposed Antichristian "Tribulation Period." It would simply be a delay before the entry onto the ark and the beginning of the Flood.

I'm not discounting your complaint. I just don't see any explicit doctrine made by Jesus in this comparison indicating a Pretribulation Rapture.

Then you don't hold to a Millennium reign of Christ either?

I was not comparing Noah to the church. I was comparing Noah to Israel who fled into the wilderness for 3.5 years, while Satan had his empire for 42 months. The Flood would represent Satan's control, that Israel is protected from:

"And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

The church left years before Noah got into the ark, when Enoch was translated and no longer found on the earth.

I don't see Israel nor the Second Coming harvest as ever being part of the church. They wait on the sea of glass mentioned in Revelation. The church has been waiting in Paradise since the Cross. Not on a sea of glass. The sea of glass is the 3.5 year place of safety for those removed from the earth and directly chosen by Jesus to live on the earth, during the millennium. The Second Coming already happened, and the church removed, before this final harvest in which the 144k are sealed and protected as well. The 144k and those on the sea of glass are those on white horses, returning to live on the earth during the Millennium, after being carried away on eagles wings, prior to Satan's 42 months. Are these literal eagles wings, or white horses upon which they return? Are the white horses literal, or just the metaphor of a great army?

Not the church. The church is still waiting for the New Jerusalem to come to earth. That is their home, not earthly Jerusalem where Jesus reigns, and the 144k are constantly in attendance to Jesus as King.

The dead still wait in sheol until the GWT. Would not the church still wait in Paradise, until the New Jerusalem descends to earth?

The Millennium is not for all the dead and all the church from all time to live on the earth. It is the Kingdom of peace promised to earthly Israel based from earthly Jerusalem.

If one is not amil or post mill, why would they think all are immediately dead at the Second Coming? Amil have pointed out that no humans are even left on the earth after Armageddon, yet post trib people who accept the Day of the Lord is a thousand years have humans stashed away some where still in Adam's dead state flourishing on earth who escaped God's notice. Did humans escape the Flood of Noah's day to fill the earth faster than the bottleneck of only 8 humans? Why would that be the case at Armageddon?

 

[Davy]

That must be me that you're talking about. But I'm not being edified by any of you posttribbers.

But of course we post-tribbers could never edify one determined to believe a lie to start with. Thing is that the pre-tribbers should ask theirselves, is just where does the pre-trib rapture lie begin, where does it originate, because it certainly was not taught by Christ nor any of His Apostles, but they instead taught just the opposite of a pre-trib rapture.

 

[Davy]

Yaa-dee-daa-dee-daa!!!

What Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church, immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

None.

Instead, Jesus and Apostle Paul taught that Jesus comes after the tribulation to gather His faithful Church that 'wait' for Him. Paul teaches the same, since in 2 Thess.2 Paul showed that Jesus comes to destroy the "man of sin" with the brightness of His coming. That shows the "man of sin" (final Antichrist) comes first, which also has to mean the time of "great tribulation" happens first, and then next Jesus' coming to gather His Church.

 

[WPM]

And still, you want to talk to me.

In a different post of yours, you basically told me that if I wont play by your rules, then it is pointless to talk to me. I don't seem to be able to find that post now. I bet you went and edited that post to take that out now. But I read it and you said it.

And you dont set the rules for me. That was a girlish statement by you to make anyway. What should I do now? Oh my gosh he wont talk to me anymore! I better bow down a little to this guy or he wont even speak to me!

No sale. It's pointless for you to talk to me. You have edified no one, and you have a bad attitude. WHy would I come to a guy like you for anything? So I do agree with you on one thing. It's pointless for you to talk to me. Stop talking to me, please, PLEASE!

Or maybe you just want to have the last word with me? That's another girlish trait, lol. Stop it.

You wallow in ad hominem. Your posts ooze bitterness. Sad!

All the time you can't even present 1 proof text that supports Pretrib. Telling! No wonder you are frustrated.

I honestly think you are paranoid. I have not edited anything. But trying to change you is (indeed) pointless, but there are many observers watching on who are open to let the Bible speak for itself. That is why i continue to write. I therefore reserve the right to rebut any post you write that is unscriptural.

 

[WPM]

I have never seen a single postribber unpack the virgins parable ( a vivid pretrib rapture by the groom),
nor address " before the flood" setting change of mat 24.

I will give this a stab.

Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried (the intra-Advent period), they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom; ‘go ye out’ [Gr. exerchomai] to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came [Gr. erchomai]; and they that were ready ‘went in’ [Gr. eiserchomai] with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

Most end-time commentators correctly relate this passage to the coming of Christ. Whilst we cannot find any mention of phrases like “caught up” or “gathering together” in this text there is broad agreement that there is a definite reference to the catching away or rescue of the saints in the direction “go ye out” and the resulting action – they “went in.”

The command “go ye out”is simply one Greek word exerchomai meaning depart, escape, or get out, go. The phrase describing the response of the faithful “went in” is the single Greek word eiserchomai normally translated in the New Testament as to ‘come in’ or ‘to enter’. It can also be interpreted ‘to arise’. In keeping with many second coming passages there is an allusion to those who escape the judgment of God as being those who made themselves “ready.” This is a common theme found in regard to the catching away. It certainly correlates with the consistent portrayal of this impending climactic event. This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming.

The parable of the virgins actually agrees totally with the climactic nature of the coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here. As in Noah’s day, “the door was shut” – the day of opportunity was final closed – and those left outside were totally destroyed.

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: ‘welcome to a 7 year tribulation period’ or ‘welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance’. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity.

"Like manner" return of Acts one or Jesus sitting on a cloud harvesting main harvest jews.

Acts 1:10 demolishes the secret rapture, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven that will be the way He will return. How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

Contrary to what do you have been taught, the second coming of Christ has not happened neither is it a secret event. Such a mistaken view emanates from a wrong understanding of Scripture. Revelation 1:7, speaking of this climactic last day, John says, “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him”

This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.” The swiftness of Christ’s coming and the speed of the rescue of the saints precludes any possibility of the wicked repenting.

Jesus warned in Matthew 24:23-27: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden and visible as lightning. What is more sudden and visually spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.

 

[WPM]

No postribber has ever unpacked the "0ne taken/left" of mat 24.

I did it above but you ignored. I will repost.

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

“one shall taken, and the other shall be left”

If we look closer at this passage we learn, “in that night (when He shall Come) there shall be two in one bed; the one shall be paraleemftheésetai (or) taken, and the other shall be afetheésetai (or) left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be paraleemftheésetai (or) taken, and the other afetheésetai (or) left.”

It is interesting when we look at the meaning of this Greek word paraleemftheésetai used here. Strong’s says that it indicates, “to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself in any familiar or intimate act or relation.” The word is interpreted elsewhere in the King James Version as ‘receive’, ‘take unto’ or ‘take with’. The company that are therefore received by Christ in this passage are those that have been brought into an intimate mystical union with Him through salvation; they are His elect. This narrative is unquestionably referring to the catching away of the saints, and the marriage of the lamb.

This is the same word that Christ used in John 14:3 when He promised His disciples that He would come again to receive them, saying, “In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and paraleémpsomai (or) receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Interestingly, the word used here to describe the second party in view is the Greek word afetheésetai, which carries the meaning to forsake, put away or lay aside. This is the fate that awaits the wicked alone when Christ comes in all His glory.

No one that has taken the time to examine the meaning of the Greek words for “taken” and “left” can surely deny that the definition of “taken” is manifestly positive and the definition of “left” is patently negative.

Q. What then happens to those left behind?

A. The Lord’s solemn warning in the midst of the aforementioned narrative confirms the answer, and is in complete agreement with Christ’s unambiguous preceding comments in the same chapter, and every other explicit passage in Scripture. He makes it abundantly clear that instant and complete destruction befalls the wicked. He solemnly counsels the disciples, “Remember Lot's wife.”

Remember Lot's

Q. Why must we “remember Lot's wife”? What befell her?

She got caught in the escape out of Sodom because her heart was still there. Despite being fully aware of the impending destruction, Lot's wife’s heart was located in Sodom and towards the awful iniquity; this was despite the fact that she also desired to be with the people of God. Notwithstanding, Genesis 19:26 says of Lot, “his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.”

Her foolish refusal to once-and-for-all turn her back on Sodom caused her to be instantly and completely destroyed. Through her un-preparedness, she was immediately cast into a lost hell – damned and doomed for all eternity – without hope and without Christ.

What Christ is therefore warning in this reading is this: ‘Remember Lot's wife because she was found wanting on the day when God finally poured out His judgment upon the wicked; be warned because His second coming will similarly expose the heart of every hypocrite, although on this occasion it will be for the very final time. Those left behind will face the same punishment as Lot’s wife – total destruction.

When Noah left the world of his day and entered into the ark
there were many left lying in beds and grinding at mills to receive
the wrath of God and therefore destruction. The same happened in Lot's day. The same will happen at Christ's Coming.

After Christ described the destruction that accompanies His return, He talks about one being rescued the other being destroyed. Jesus tells us that those left behind will suffer the same total, immediate and awful doom that Noah's world and Sodom suffered in their day (Luke 17). Once the ark door closes that is it. It is too late.

Where ever the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together

The disciples then ask: “Where, Lord?” Christ replies: “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

The eagles devour those left behind. Rev 19 correlates.

 

[WPM]

nor address " before the flood" setting change of mat 24.

What does this mean?

So we basically own end times.

That has never happened or ever will. I have yet to see 1 Pretrib verse in the inspired pages.

Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

 

[Timtofly]

I see a Wedding Supper in Rev 19, indicating it is a reward for Christians waiting for Jesus' 2nd Coming. The consummation of our marriage with Christ takes place not at our acceptance of Christ but rather, at our resurrection to immortality, ie our glorification. We cannot be fully united with Christ until our Sin Nature is gone, and our mortality is destroyed.

To say that the Wedding Feast is for Israel--not the Church is ludicrous. The hope of Christ is not just for Israel but for Christians in all nations. We will all enjoy the benefits of Christ's Salvation. We will all be married to Christ for all eternity.

I do believe in a Millennial period, though I know this is somewhat controversial. But the thought that the marriage to Christ follows Christ's Coming for the Church by a thousand years sounds absurd. Why would God have to work with Israel a thousand more years when He has been working with Israel 1500 years longer than He has been working with the international Church?

This appears to be Dispensationalism going to seed. Where is this supposed division between Israel and the Church in the Millennial Age? I don't see it.

God worked with Israel for 1400 years. Then the Cross. That was almost 2,000 years ago. God has dealt with the church 400 years longer than He did Israel. What are you talking about?

There is not any more division between the church waiting in Paradise for the last 1994 years seperate from on the earth. Abraham has been waiting for the New Jerusalem for 4,000 years, what is another 1,000 years?

That is not an issue with Dispensationalism, but the fact of history.

Is it absurd that the Deliverer will come out of Sion and save a remnant on the earth, not bring that remnant from heaven called the church? Romans 11:25-28

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes."

Is the church the fulness of the Gentiles? Will there be a remnant of Israel redeemed at the Second Coming? Are these enemies of the church?

 

[Randy Kluth]

How do you explain that the time given to Satan is after the 7th Trumpet sounds?

I do not see the visions in the book of Revelation as representing a chronological sequence. Each vision may have its own chronological sequence, with some of the visions reviewing the same historical progression. In all of the visions, Christ returns at the end of the age, on the last day of the age.

For example, the vision of the 7 sealed Scroll takes us from John's time to Christ's coming Kingdom, the entire NT history. Following that is a number of visions, with emphasis on the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist. But by Rev 19 we are again looking at the same coming of Christ and his Kingdom. These visions are running parallel with one another, and not representing a chronological sequence from one vision to the next.

Of course there's going to be some chronological sequence, as well as a progression in the overall narrative. But each vision speaks for itself.

This term Antichrist that you use is not even found in the book of Revelation. So where do you put this figure?

John takes his term "Antichrist" form the "Little Horn" in Dan 7 who stands opposed to the coming Son of Man and God's Kingdom. He is therefore identified as an "Antichrist," or "anti-Son of Man."

What do you mean the church is not currently in heaven? Where are they?

I meant to say the *Raptured Church* is not in heaven. The Departed Church is certainly with Christ in heaven. And they will come *with Christ* when he returns. They will assume a glorified physical resurrection just before those who remain are caught up to experience the same glorified event. This will all take place in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, so that we can all return with Jesus to earth in glory. This is the coming of God's Kingdom to earth with the Church sharing authority with Christ to impose this order in the new age.

What verse states billions of people from heaven come to the earth to live forever, as you put it? Does Jesus not come to earth at the Second Coming? Where in Zechariah 14 does it say that God is going to fill the earth with billions of people from the last 6,000 years of humanity?

Not sure what you're talking about? I believe Jesus comes back with billions of glorified Christians, yes. But they will have become *immortal* at that point. So if there is a Millennial Age, with mortal people still living on the earth, I don't think the billions of glorified Christians will do anything more than make a cameo appearance.

Even Paul says we meet in the air. No verse says we come to earth, does it? Heaven is the home of the church, not earth. Hebrews 11 points that out.

Yes, the Scriptures definitely say Jesus comes to earth with his people. Dan 9 speaks of the Son of Man coming with the clouds. He is going to establish his Kingdom on the earth. How he does that is the 2nd question.

God worked with Israel for 1400 years. Then the Cross. That was almost 2,000 years ago. God has dealt with the church 400 years longer than He did Israel. What are you talking about?

My point was already made. God started with Israel 1400 or 1500 years before Christianity. So there is no more need for time spent preparing Israel. Israel, together with all nations, will face judgment at the same time when Christ returns.

I frankly don't understand some of your points because you are arguing against and not arguing for. Your views are confusing to me. I'm not sure what school of interpretation you're hoping to align with?

 

[WPM]

The 70 weeks are not complete. The 70th week is about Daniels people and the time of Jacobs trouble. It is a time when part of Israel has their blindness removed.

Pretrib hermeneutics are horrible. They make it up as they go. Where anywhere in Jeremiah does it mention a rapture of the church, followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming, never mind Jeremiah 30?

You misinterpret an Old Testament prophecy (Jeremiah 30) that expressly relates to the Babylonian exile, and apply it to some supposed Pretrib rapture, some alleged 7 years trib or a 3rd coming that is not remotely mentioned in the passage. This is how Pretrib hermeneutics work. They employ theological dubious colored rules. This shows us how bereft Pretrib is of biblical support.

It is so hard engaging with this position is because you have to deprogram them from all the false teaching that they have been taught over the years.

Jacob's troubles are not mentioned anywhere in Revelation or anywhere else in the New Testament. Pretribbers have to force it in there.

Dispensationalists boast often about the need for a literalist approach to Scripture. But when their theology is tested by the Word of God it is seen to fall short. When we analyze their boast, we find truth after truth and passage after passage that they butcher in order to facility their doctrine. Not only do they not take a literal approach but they also repeatedly fail to acknowledge context or setting. The subject of Jacob’s trouble is a case-in-point.

Pretribbers rip Jacob's troubles from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it to some imaginary seven-year period at the end, to support their end-time beliefs.

A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. Also, it has absolutely nothing to do with the end of time. It rather describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.

Jacob's trouble is shown to relate to Babylonian captivity which occurred back in Nebuchadrezzar’s day. Let us let the Bible speak for itself.

 

[WPM]

I don't care about the 7 trumpets of Revelation. They are the wrath of God. We should be looking for the two raptures before the wrath of God as we are not appointed to wrath. 1 Thes 4 is the trump of God which is the voice of God. And the last trump of 1 Cor 15 Is blown on the feast of Trumpets the fall harvest feast.
1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Cor 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Can you (1) remove your Pretrib glasses for a moment, (2) check the color coding below, and (3) piece the jigsaw puzzle together yourself. Check out the likeness, continuity and correlation between what all the Scripture. They all describe the same coming, on the same day, producing the same climactic result.

Jesus says of His coming in Matthew 24:27: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Matthew 24:35-39 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Jesus repeats that truth in the parallel passage in Mark 13:24-27, 31-32: “in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall ‘gather together’ [or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ... Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “Coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and this correlate and negate the Pretrib argument that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs before the tribulation period. Not only does He gather the living elect “from the four winds... of the earth” but He also gathers His elect from “the uttermost part of heaven.” Jesus comes “with” and “for” His saints. This challenges the popular Pretrib theory that Christ is simply coming “for” His saints the second time and coming “with” his saints the third time (7yrs later).

Jesus warned in Luke 21:33-36: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares (or) aifnídios (or suddenly). For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Prevailing or persevering ensures an escape from the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” The prevailing is the experience of every saint that perseveres to the end and triumphs in Christ. They will be rescued before the total destruction.

Here, the reader is admonished to be ready for the Lord’s return lest that day catch him aifnídios (or) suddenly. In Christ’s warning of His Coming He explains that “as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.” The snare is all-embracing. The destruction relates to all that miss the catching away; they are caught helplessly in a trap with no escape. Just like Noah and Lot’s days, there will be no survivors at the second coming of the Lord. The destruction shall come as a snare on all the inhabitants of the earth that are outside of Christ.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. Now a future hour when all of the dead would be raised turns into at least 2,000 years. This can't be taken seriously. You will obviously do anything to twist scripture to make it say what you want it to say, which is very dishonest. I'm not wasting any more time looking at your nonsense.

John 5:25

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

Can you figure out who the dead are?

 

[Timtofly]

Ah, yes. You are so special that God decided to reveal the truth about these things only to you. Good grief. Could you possibly be more arrogant than to think that way?


That is an obvious lie. It's all you have to offer. You are a joke. I'm done with you.

You called it lunacy, not me.

Being an outside observer it not special. Are you seriously preaching amil as some dumb, man made theology?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

John 5:25

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

Can you figure out who the dead are?

That verse does not have the same context as John 5:28-29 which only referred to a future event and not something that "now is" (was already happening at the time Jesus was speaking). That verse should be understood in the same sense as what Paul wrote about here:

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Notice here how Paul wrote about living believers being formerly spiritually "dead in your transgressions and sins", but then being made "alive with Christ" and he related this to being spiritually saved by grace. So, that is talking about being made spiritually alive while we are physically alive after previously being spiritually "dead in your transgressions and sins". That is what Jesus was saying in John 5:24-25 as well. He then went on to talk about bodily resurrections in John 5:28-29.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You called it lunacy, not me.

Being an outside observer it not special. Are you seriously preaching amil as some dumb, man made theology?

You missed the point as you always do. How many people do you know who agree with your overall doctrine? I would think none. I've never seen anyone else who believes what you do. But, many people believe the same as I do. My point is that God does not reveal truth to just one person. If you think so, then you think way too highly of yourself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Pretrib hermeneutics are horrible. They make it up as they go.

That is absolutely true. Pretrib doctrine is a random mishmash of unrelated scriptures. It is truly a giant, convoluted, indiscernible, incomprehensible mess. I can barely take it seriously.