The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[MA2444]

How about giving us clear Scripture to show this? Where in Scripture does it say, "there will be believers who get left behind, that wasn't chosen as a Bride, but they are still saved"? You cannot even prove there is a tribulation period after the second coming.

When Jesus comes, He rescues all the elect and destroys all the wicked, before He pours out is final and wholesale wrath. That is the pattern of history. That is what Scripture teaches.

Where does it say the one left behind is (a) believer and (2) survives the wrath that is poured out in that great climactic day? You are forcing what you have been taught into the inspired text. You have to. There is not one single proof text in the Word. Your failure to provide the same reinforces that. No Pretrib can prove that. All we are getting from you is wild unsubstantiated claims.

If you were to openly and objectively look at the text that you are referring to, you would see that it actually forbids a Pretrib scenario. Good at the proves Amillennialism. Instead of the Pretrib soundbites, let us look at what the text actually says!

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

“one shall taken, and the other shall be left”

If we look closer at this passage we learn, “in that night (when He shall Come) there shall be two in one bed; the one shall be paraleemftheésetai (or) taken, and the other shall be afetheésetai (or) left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be paraleemftheésetai (or) taken, and the other afetheésetai (or) left.”

It is interesting when we look at the meaning of this Greek word paraleemftheésetai used here. Strong’s says that it indicates, “to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself in any familiar or intimate act or relation.” The word is interpreted elsewhere in the King James Version as ‘receive’, ‘take unto’ or ‘take with’. The company that are therefore received by Christ in this passage are those that have been brought into an intimate mystical union with Him through salvation; they are His elect. This narrative is unquestionably referring to the catching away of the saints, and the marriage of the lamb.

This is the same word that Christ used in John 14:3 when He promised His disciples that He would come again to receive them, saying, “In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and paraleémpsomai (or) receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Interestingly, the word used here to describe the second party in view is the Greek word afetheésetai, which carries the meaning to forsake, put away or lay aside. This is the fate that awaits the wicked alone when Christ comes in all His glory.

No one that has taken the time to examine the meaning of the Greek words for “taken” and “left” can surely deny that the definition of “taken” is manifestly positive and the definition of “left” is patently negative.

Q. What then happens to those left behind?

A. The Lord’s solemn warning in the midst of the aforementioned narrative confirms the answer, and is in complete agreement with Christ’s unambiguous preceding comments in the same chapter, and every other explicit passage in Scripture. He makes it abundantly clear that instant and complete destruction befalls the wicked. He solemnly counsels the disciples, “Remember Lot's wife.”

Remember Lot's

Q. Why must we “remember Lot's wife”? What befell her?

She got caught in the escape out of Sodom because her heart was still there. Despite being fully aware of the impending destruction, Lot's wife’s heart was located in Sodom and towards the awful iniquity; this was despite the fact that she also desired to be with the people of God. Notwithstanding, Genesis 19:26 says of Lot, “his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.”

Her foolish refusal to once-and-for-all turn her back on Sodom caused her to be instantly and completely destroyed. Through her un-preparedness, she was immediately cast into a lost hell – damned and doomed for all eternity – without hope and without Christ.

What Christ is therefore warning in this reading is this: ‘Remember Lot's wife because she was found wanting on the day when God finally poured out His judgment upon the wicked; be warned because His second coming will similarly expose the heart of every hypocrite, although on this occasion it will be for the very final time. Those left behind will face the same punishment as Lot’s wife – total destruction.

When Noah left the world of his day and entered into the ark
there were many left lying in beds and grinding at mills to receive
the wrath of God and therefore destruction. The same happened in Lot's day. The same will happen at Christ's Coming.

After Christ described the destruction that accompanies His return, He talks about one being rescued the other being destroyed. Jesus tells us that those left behind will suffer the same total, immediate and awful doom that Noah's world and Sodom suffered in their day (Luke 17). Once the ark door closes that is it. It is too late.

Where ever the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together

The disciples then ask: “Where, Lord?” Christ replies: “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

The eagles devour those left behind. Rev 19 correlates.

...... ....... ..............!

 

[Timtofly]

This does not say that the flood didn't start until 7 days after Noah went into the ark. It may very well have started raining immediately after he went into the ark, but the water didn't actually cover the earth until after the first 7 days went by. How else can we make sense of what Jesus said here:

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Jesus indicated that the flood came the same day that Noah entered the ark. Are you going to just ignore that? Was He mistaken? Was He somehow not familiar with Genesis 7:10? No, of course not. He would not say something to contradict scripture. So, we should take Him at His word and interpret Genesis 7:10 in such a way that doesn't contradict what Jesus said. But, instead of doing that, you are trying to change what Jesus said to fit your understanding of Genesis 7:10.

Beyond that, you ignore what Jesus said about Lot. The very day that Lot left Sodom, the city was destroyed. Jesus said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.". Why would you not compare Lot leaving Sodom with the church being raptured the way you compare Noah entering the ark to the church being raptured? There's no reason why not except for doctrinal bias.

And beyond all that, even if you were correct that Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood came, how does that equate to the rapture occurring 7 years before Jesus comes again? It's so clear that you are manipulating the text to make it say what you want in order to make it fit your doctrine. You should not do that.

Your view has people eating and drinking and marrying up until Noah enters the ark and then, for some insane reason, they stop eating and drinking 6 or 7 days before the flood even starts? What nonsense! Do you not understand that many people wouldn't even survive that long without eating or drinking? LOL! You're not even thinking here. You are making up stories of what you want to happen instead of letting scripture tell you what is going to happen.

"For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights."

You make Jesus sound like He does not even know His own Word. Really? Is the point that demanding, that you all have to spin God's Word to even make your point? You are the one causing Jesus to contradict Genesis 7.

If we did that you would all be crying foul. In fact you are spinning God's Word to deny more of God's Word, then you all claim we are inventing God's Word to boot. How big of a pit do you all want to dig to deny, deny, deny?

One does not even need to know the length of this time of Jacob's trouble, to understand that Jesus is on the earth with His angels. That is pointed out in several accounts in which Jesus was teaching. Jesus also said these days would be shortened, so why would we need to then prove the 7 days are shortened at the time of the Flood as that seems to be your point, no? It was originally 7 days, but now you all want it to be a single day, as you have yet to provide proof it took 7 days to fill the ark, but have only offered conjecture and opinion. Oh wait, you are using Jesus' example as a non example, to fit your own biased eschatology, that denies a Millennial reign of Christ on the earth. Pre-mill post tribbers, still accept some parts of amil and post mill thought, even though they deny that.

Your interpretation even breaks the grammar of the text, yet you seem oblivious to that point. If pre-trib did that you would immediately point it out. Since you do it, should the excuse be there was no punctuation in the original? When we point out grammar violations, it falls on deaf ears.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Illegitimate? Jesus compared His Second Coming to the days of Noah. How much more legitimacy do you require? Enoch was raptured before Noah started to build the ark, which seems to have taken 100 years.

Then Noah was taken up above the Flood by a different mode than a rapture, but both were removed and protected from the Judgment time. When do you think the judgment happens in the book of Revelation? Only at Armageddon, and none of the other set of events? What are the Trumpets for, or the Thunders?

1st, I would agree that Christians are saved from *something!* This doesn't mean Christians will be Raptured away from the earth before a time when Antichrist will persecute Christians. Christians have suffered persecution from pagans throughout history, without any Rapture away from the time of trouble.

Christians are indeed saved *from eternal judgment* that will take place when Christ comes a 2nd time. None of this has anything to do with escape from the earth before Antichrist arrives. We are saved from God's *eternal wrath* in Outer Darkness.

2nd, I would agree that Jesus used the Flood story to compare with his 2nd Coming. The world is going to be judged for its wickednesss en mass. This is like the Flood that massively destroyed the population of mankind on earth. This is comparable.

When I say there is no evidence that the Flood projects the idea of a *Pretribulational deliverance,* I'm talking about the lack of explicit points in Jesus' comparison indicating that Christians will escape the tribulation associated with Antichrist's persecution.

Clearly, the book of Revelation indicates the Antichrist persecutes Christians. So any notion of escape by Rapture of a large group of Christians is simply lacking in the narrative.

You may indeed see pictures of the Church in heaven scattered throughout the narrative of Antichrist's reign in the book of Revelation. But in no place are we told that Christians are depicted as being in heaven due to a Rapture at Christ's Coming. We would have to speculate as such--it is not explicit doctrinal truth.

 

[WPM]

When you ask someone for scripture (like you did me) and I posted the scriptures for you, then you act like no scripture was posted and start slinging insults to people.

A real class act you are, lol.

No insults, and no, you have yet to show or discuss one single Pretrib passage. That is because it does not exist. I suspect you know that, thus your reluctance to do so.

 

[WPM]

...... ....... ..............!

LOL. That sums up the Pretrib position. That is it in a nutshell. That is the classic Pretrib response when they are confronted with real Scripture and their theories are refuted. It is impossible to engage. That have nothing to bring to the table.

This might explain why so many people are abandoning that position.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, you are breaking up the thoughts to force fit your point. You and WPM need a verse from Scripture that states it took 7 days to enter the ark. Without your proof text you are literally dead in the water. Now you could point out there were not punctuation marks, and they were added even in modern Hebrew Scriptures. You are still going past what most have accepted as breaks in the thought.

There are no English paragraphs, but the ancient Hebrew did have indicators of something like paragraphs. However, none of this proves the point either of us wishes to make. This is not a hill I will die on. You may be right that Noah entered the ark, and 7 days later the Flood came. Or, I may be right that Noah took 7 days getting the animals on board and was locked in after 7 days, at which time the Flood began.

It makes little difference. There is no parallel with the 2nd Coming except that Christians are preserved by their faith in the resurrection while the world will be eternally judged at Christ's 2nd Coming and removed from the new earth. 7 Days do not mark a supposed Antichristian "Tribulation Period." It would simply be a delay before the entry onto the ark and the beginning of the Flood.

I'm not discounting your complaint. I just don't see any explicit doctrine made by Jesus in this comparison indicating a Pretribulation Rapture.

 

[MA2444]

No insults, and no, you have yet to show or discuss one single Pretrib passage. That is because it does not exist. I suspect you know that, thus your reluctance to do so.

Thank you for proving my point. I've been posting a lot of pretrib scriptures and here you go again, why dont I post a scripture? Lol.

 

[WPM]

Thank you for proving my point. I've been posting a lot of pretrib scriptures and here you go again, why dont I post a scripture? Lol.

The reader can see for themselves the constant and going avoidance of pretribbers on Bible discussion forums. That is why it is crumbling.

 

[MA2444]

LOL. That sums up the Pretrib position. That is it in a nutshell. That is the classic Pretrib response when their theories are refuted. It is impossible to engage. That have nothing to bring to the table.

Nope. That's my classic response to you alone. Your other supporter in your view has been discussing these scriptures with me, but that's impossible for you to engage because you wont even acknowledge that I ever posted any scriptures.

Oh and I made a typo in my response to you. Sorry about that. It should have read:

........ ..... ..........?

Much better. There is my proof to you alone.

 

[MA2444]

The reader can see for themselves the constant and going avoidance of pretribbers on Bible discussion forums. That is why it is crumbling.

Yeah but ........... .......... .......... ............... ..... .. ..., and that's all I have to say to you about that.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The wedding feast in Revelation 19 is with Israel, not the church.

You mean the churches that existed 1900 years ago?

Why has the church been enjoying Paradise for 1900 years without a marriage from the first century? Is waiting another thousand years that bad? Israel has been waiting 2000 years. Revelation is about Israel, even though it was addressed to the church. The church has rejected God's plan to still work with Israel at the Second Coming. They (amil and historist) declare all is over at the Second Coming, and Israel lost out thousands of years ago, since 720BC, tough luck!

I see a Wedding Supper in Rev 19, indicating it is a reward for Christians waiting for Jesus' 2nd Coming. The consummation of our marriage with Christ takes place not at our acceptance of Christ but rather, at our resurrection to immortality, ie our glorification. We cannot be fully united with Christ until our Sin Nature is gone, and our mortality is destroyed.

To say that the Wedding Feast is for Israel--not the Church is ludicrous. The hope of Christ is not just for Israel but for Christians in all nations. We will all enjoy the benefits of Christ's Salvation. We will all be married to Christ for all eternity.

I do believe in a Millennial period, though I know this is somewhat controversial. But the thought that the marriage to Christ follows Christ's Coming for the Church by a thousand years sounds absurd. Why would God have to work with Israel a thousand more years when He has been working with Israel 1500 years longer than He has been working with the international Church?

This appears to be Dispensationalism going to seed. Where is this supposed division between Israel and the Church in the Millennial Age? I don't see it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Nope. That's my classic response to you alone. Your other supporter in your view has been discussing these scriptures with me, but that's impossible for you to engage because you wont even acknowledge that I ever posted any scriptures.

Oh and I made a typo in my response to you. Sorry about that. It should have read:

........ ..... ..........?

Much better. There is my proof to you alone.

I agree that you would post Scriptures. But my point would be: have you posted any Scriptures that *explicitly teach* Pretribulationism? I'm not talking about an example of escape, by the saints, from God's wrath. I'm talking about the Bible saying that Christians will escape from the *time* that Antichrist rules?

In this case WPM is completely right. You have absolutely no *explicit biblical teaching* that the Church must leave before Antichrist arises.

I certainly have no wish to get hostile over this. But it is indeed frustrating when Scriptural proofs are offered that are not even mentioning the Reign of Antichrist! Just the absence of the word "church" is sometimes used as proof the Church is gone when the Antichrist narrative is given.

The idea that Christians are saved from God's Wrath is sometimes given as proof that the Bible teaches Pretribulationism. Nobody is even disputing that receiving Eternal Life saves us from God's damnation!

Others prove Christ will come before the Tribulation because the Bible says that Christ can come *at any time,* which again, is not something that is biblically said. We are only told we don't know the day or the hour Christ will return. That applies as much to Postrib as it does to Pretrib.

So do you have any Scriptural references that explicitly *teach* Pretrib? Most definitely you do not! But I surely wish you have a good day in the Lord. Christians will always have some disagreements up until we see Jesus face to face.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL!!!!!!!! You also want to manipulate the text to make it say what you want it to say. If you want to claim that they were eating and drinking and marrying only until Noah entered the ark and claim that this happened 6 days before the flood came, then you have no choice but to conclude that they stopped eating and drinking 6 days before the flood even started! LOL!!!! That is lunacy. Why would they stop eating and drinking for 6 days just because they saw Noah go into the ark without seeing any rain or proof that they flood was arriving yet? They wouldn't have. But, far be it from you to care about logic and reason.

I have no stake in the claim. I don't hold to most people's interpretation, not even pre-tribbers. But God forbid there be an outside objective view.

God's Word is lunacy to you. Jesus said that activity stopped when the door of the ark shut. Take it up with God.

I never said they stopped taking in sustenance. I said they stopped their carousing. Are you literally saying they got married every day to a new person as well as often as normal meals? Do you lack common sense as to say they literally stopped eating and drinking, when that was not the point? They also stopped marrying and being given in marriage. Did they do that every single day as well?

You accuse posters of lunacy, and then complain when we say you all are lacking common sense here just to make a point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What is the potential problem?

I already told you in this post: The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

It is not essential to salvation. It may be essential to whether we go through the Great Trib or not.

It is not. That is utterly ridiculous and not taught in scripture. Matthew 24 shows what happens to those who don't watch. They end up in the place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. The lake of fire (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15). I showed you this already.

Matthew 24:48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is not talking about Christians who don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. Give me a break! It's talking about unbelievers like the scoffers Peter writes about in 2 Peter 3:3-13. They will end up in the lake of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.../KJV

Is that hard to understand? Great Tribulation. Wars rumours of wars, Pestilince,Earthquakes. Volcanos, death and destruction everywhere.

You need to read more carefully and ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7). Jesus did not say that the earthquakes, wars, etc. are part of "the great tribulation".

Matthew 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Notice Jesus said these things will happen but do not indicate that the end is at hand. They are just "the beginning of birth pains". If you think these things are part of "The Great Tribulation" then the great tribulation has been going on for a long time already. If World War 1 and World War 2 don't count as great tribulation to you, then I don't know what to tell you. But, that isn't what Matthew 24:15-21 is about. If you would actually read it (read the parallel passages of Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24, also), then you can see that tribulation is not global tribulation, but local tribulation in Jerusalem and Judea. What it describes matches up exactly with what happened around 70 AD.

Tribulation that occurs just before Christ returns is global and has to do with a high level of deception resulting in many falling away from the faith and an increase in wickedness.

Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

They might even throw in an Alien invasion and also tell all of the Bigfoots to start attacking instead of running. How would you like to have to defend your family from a pissed of Bigfoot while you all are out camping? I bet no 9mm will take one down.

It's very difficult to take you seriously when you say things like this. Do you want to be taken seriously or not?

John 16:33
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.../KJV

That's a far cry from Matthew 24:21, such as was not since the beginning of the world.

I am not saying that the tribulation Christians have faced from the beginning are what Matthew 24:21 is referring to. Do you understand that? I think you have a lot of trouble understanding what people tell you. What happened in 70 AD in and around Jerusalem was unlike anything that happened before or since anywhere in the world. Have you ever read about it?

It is going to be much much worse. You think you have Tribulation and persecutions? Brother, these are the good old days right now compared to what coming.

This is nonsense. You are not understanding the context of what Jesus said in Matthew 24:21. Are you seriously trying to say that anything happening in the future will be worse than being tortured and killed as has happened to many Christians for the past almost 2,000 years? You are very naive.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There's quite a few more scriptures describing the GT. People will search for death and not be able to find it. Only one way to die during this time, confess Jesus as Lord and they will cut off your head. There's 6 or it 7 bowls of Wrath that will poured out upon the earth. The horsemen, the famines, and the mark of the beast. All that stuff. It will be the darkest and hardest time that has ever come upon the world since the beginning of time.

Those things don't describe the same event as Matthew 24:15-21, which is only a local event. You are talking about things that happen globally. And, let me clue you in on something. If you're going to say that persecution, famines, wars, and so on are "The Great Tribulation" then it has been going on a long time already. Do you somehow not know that many Christians have been persecuted over the years,, including having their heads cut off? Just because those kinds of things don't happen in the U.S. doesn't mean they don't happen in other countries. They do. Why do you act as if that is only a future thing? Please wake up and stop being so naive about everything.

But the church will be in heaven at the Marriage supper of the Lamb during this time, having a BBQ with the Lord!

Nonsense. That is not taught anywhere in scripture. Why would that be? There would be no need for that. Not until the final wrath comes down as described in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Do you not think that God is able to protect His people while they are on the earth until then? Of course He is. As far as persecution and such, scripture says "all who will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (2 Timothy 3:12). But, you think Christians will be taken off of the earth to avoid that? That is ridiculous.

There's about 300 or so prophecies abut the (first) coming of the Messiah in scripture. There's 2500 about the His 2nd coming, end times and the GT.

LOL. Only a futurist would come up with a ridiculous number like that. As if nothing that has happened since His first coming is prophesied about in scripture. Wow.

You're being awful short sighted there. You think this is as bad as it gets?

That is not what I said. You are not understanding what I'm saying. You have a reading comprehension problem.

Scripture says it will be soo bad that men's hearts will fail them for the fear that comes upon them. When the big event happens I think it will happen so fast that they will not have time to repent. No time to pray. You must be ready before then and walk under the cloud of God's protection.

That is talking about the actual day that Christ returns! Not years before then. That is where you are mistaken.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

Notice it talks about escaping what will happen "that day". What day? The day Jesus comes when "heaven and earth will pass away". Just like what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.../KJV

A more accurate translation would read, Because you have kept my words during My patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of tempaton which shall come upon all the world.../

IOW, Rapture you out of the GT, which shall come upon the world. Because we are not appointed to wrath.

The Greek words translated as "keep" and "from" there are "tereo" and "ek" and they have nothing to do with being taken away from something, but rather being protected from something while still on the earth. Like we can see here:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Notice Jesus prayed that the Father would not take His followers out of the world, but rather would protect them from evil. You doctrine contradicts what Jesus prayed about and also misinterprets what Revelation 3:10 is saying.

Do you think that it can't get worse than it already is?! Wow. Super Optimistic!

Never said that. You are just not understanding what I'm saying. I don't see that you're trying very hard, either. I believe it will get worse in terms of deception and increasing in wickedness, as both Jesus (Matt 24:9-13) and Paul (2 Thess 2:1-12) indicated would happen just before the return of Christ.

 

[WPM]

Nope. That's my classic response to you alone. Your other supporter in your view has been discussing these scriptures with me, but that's impossible for you to engage because you wont even acknowledge that I ever posted any scriptures.

Oh and I made a typo in my response to you. Sorry about that. It should have read:

........ ..... ..........?

Much better. There is my proof to you alone.

Checkmate!

 

[Davy]

That's what I was talking about with you and your negative connotaions. Are you the eternal Pessimist?

Are you not in Christ? Then can you not see that I didn't preach doomsday, I preached the good news part of it, for us Brothers &Sisters, and the unbelievers. But for some reason you dont really see that. And that's odd to me.

So now because you've lost common sense, you think that gives you the right to personally attack me instead of sticking to the subject of Bible Scripture that I was talking about? You can't respond with personal attacks and expect to have a legitimate argument.

Pre-trib authors like Hal Lindsay and Tim LaHaye pushed GLOOM AND DOOM STORIES for the reason of SENSATIONALISM thinking it supports a Pre-trib Rapture, when there's no such idea in God's Word.


This section of Scripture by Lord Jesus is NOT the "great tribulation", not yet...

Matt 24:5-8
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
KJV


Below is when the "great tribulation" begins, which is the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week"...

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

When that "great tribulation" time starts, THEN is when the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety" like Apostle Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5.

 

[WPM]

I already told you in this post: The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture


It is not. That is utterly ridiculous and not taught in scripture. Matthew 24 shows what happens to those who don't watch. They end up in the place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. The lake of fire (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15). I showed you this already.

Matthew 24:48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is not talking about Christians who don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. Give me a break! It's talking about unbelievers like the scoffers Peter writes about in 2 Peter 3:3-13. They will end up in the lake of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


You need to read more carefully and ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7). Jesus did not say that the earthquakes, wars, etc. are part of "the great tribulation".

Matthew 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Notice Jesus said these things will happen but do not indicate that the end is at hand. They are just "the beginning of birth pains". If you think these things are part of "The Great Tribulation" then the great tribulation has been going on for a long time already. If World War 1 and World War 2 don't count as great tribulation to you, then I don't know what to tell you. But, that isn't what Matthew 24:15-21 is about. If you would actually read it (read the parallel passages of Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24, also), then you can see that tribulation is not global tribulation, but local tribulation in Jerusalem and Judea. What it describes matches up exactly with what happened around 70 AD.

Tribulation that occurs just before Christ returns is global and has to do with a high level of deception resulting in many falling away from the faith and an increase in wickedness.

Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


It's very difficult to take you seriously when you say things like this. Do you want to be taken seriously or not?


I am not saying that the tribulation Christians have faced from the beginning are what Matthew 24:21 is referring to. Do you understand that? I think you have a lot of trouble understanding what people tell you. What happened in 70 AD in and around Jerusalem was unlike anything that happened before or since anywhere in the world. Have you ever read about it?


This is nonsense. You are not understanding the context of what Jesus said in Matthew 24:21. Are you seriously trying to say that anything happening in the future will be worse than being tortured and killed as has happened to many Christians for the past almost 2,000 years? You are very naive.

You are wasting your time. He is constantly imposing what he has been taught upon the inspired pages. You are debating with his teachers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Someone that believes in the truth of a pretribulation rapture should be more prepared as we are told to watch as we know not what hour He will come.

Total nonsense. With a pre-trib rapture, what are you watching for since you don't believe anything has to happen first before the rapture? Those who believe in a post-trib rapture, on the other hand, are watching for signs to indicate that His coming is near and we are watching out that we are not deceived, as Jesus said to do and as Paul warned about in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9.

 

[Timtofly]

So, you disagree with what Jesus said here then?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus very explicitly said that all of the dead would be resurrected at a future hour/time. That's one resurrection event. He was not talking about events where people were resurrected and later died. He was talking about the time when believers would be resurrected and changed to have incorruptible bodies with unbelievers being resurrected unto condemnation after which they end up being cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15).

So, please tell me exactly how you interpret John 5:28-29.

No, it is you that deny the hour started with Lazarus. Jesus never said, sinners would have to rise and be judged at the same time, He calls out the righteous. That is you adding thoughts into God's Word. You make it sound that when He called out Lazarus, He also had to raise some young rich ruler in sheol, and send the guy into the LOF at the same time, God gave Lazarus eternal life.

I interpret the latter verses with the former verses:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

The Cross ended death for the redeemed, but you dismiss that point. You claim people are still dead spiritually and physically like they were in sheol prior to the Cross, they just changed locations. You say the dead in Christ have not experienced this passing from death unto life, because you deny them life which is having a physical body. The Cross changed the physical dynamic of death, because they all came out of death physically at that very point. But you claim they all just died again and remained in a state of death, thus not passing from death unto life.

I keep pointing out that even those in sheol for 5,000 years, can still pass from death unto life, because they are the only one's still in a state of death at the GWT Judgment event. All the redeemed who freely choose redemption in this life have passed from death unto life, since the hour of the Cross, and will never be physically dead, because that is included as part of being made alive, not put on hold for another 2 or 3 millenia.

Paul says they sleep in Christ are the dead in Christ as pointing out they are no longer physically on the earth. You have Paul contradicting Jesus, who clearly states no one will taste death after the Cross, if they have the second birth. Tasting death was the OT waiting as souls in sheol. Not just waiting in sheol. The fact they did not have a physical body was tasting death, not their location. They could not enter Paradise, until they were given a physical body. That did not happen until after the Cross, and Jesus tasted that physical death, and triumphed over that physical death.