Paul taught that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality

[PinSeeker]

Here is yet another verse that you are misinterpreting. It's getting tiring having to correct all your misinterpretations.

LOL!!! Okay, just a few things... :)

What is that verse talking about? A person's ability to humble themselves, repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior? No! Context! Please start learning to look for the context in scripture instead of plucking individual verses out of scripture and interpreting them in isolation without any consideration of their context.

So, the context of what Paul said in verse 14 is related to "the deep things of God", as can be seen by looking at the context starting in verse 10. Things like the gospel message and people's need to repent and have faith for salvation are not part of "the deep things of God" that Paul was referencing here. If you continue reading into 1 Corinthians 3, you can see that the deep things of God would be what Paul referred to as the meat or solid food of God's word as opposed to the milk. In 1 Corinthians 3, Paul rebuked people for still only understanding the milk and not yet being ready for the solid food. So, the deep things of God would include the kind of things we're talking about here. Surely, no person who does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them can possibly understand these deeper things that we're talking about. Many Christians can't even understand these things.

So, you can't use 1 Corinthians 2:14 to support your previous claim that "The natural condition, the condition from birth, of the human heart, because of the consequences of Adam's sin, is to be wholly inclined against God.". That verse does not support that claim whatsoever.

Oh, I agree with you about context, and my exhortation to you would be, quit avoiding the context. My goodness. Okay:

"...these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."​

I don't really like posting in colors... :) ...but here it is instructive.

Paul is obviously addressing Christians here ~ the Church in Corinth. And what he's doing, Spiritual Israelite, is contrasting the spirit the Christians in Corinth (in blue text above) ~ and we today, by extension, as we are Christians also ~ now have... that of Jesus; the Holy Spirit... to the spirit of the natural person (in red text above).

As Paul says in Ephesians 2:3, also speaking to Christians (the Church in Ephesus), "we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." And then, beginning with "But God..." he goes on to tell of their ~ and our ~ having been born again of the Spirit. He's doing the very same thing here with the Corinthians, but sort of in reverse, explaining our new orientation first, our spiritual state, our having the Holy Spirit, as opposed to our former spiritual state, the state that the natural person is still in: not having the Spirit of God, and thus not accepting of the things of the Spirit of God, thinking them to be folly and not able to understand them... yes, not able to comprehend the depths of, the thoughts of God.

How you can still deny this is quite astounding.

...that passage has nothing to do with God making someone a vessel of wrath even from birth.

Look at it again... :)

"You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"​

So God is (obviously) the Potter, and all humanity is out of the same lump of clay, in Paul's metaphor. You know this. God made us all out of the same lump of clay. And, also, remember the Ephesians 2 passage I pointed out above (for the umpteenth time...), specifically that all, initially ~ in their natural spiritual state ~ are "children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3). For us Christians, though, this is no longer the case; we are no longer natural in spirit, as Paul then says: "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved..." (Ephesians 2:4-5).

Again, what you keep doing, Spiritual Israelite, is ~ yes you do... :) ~ you keep raising the very same objection that Paul heads of in Romans 9:19-20... "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?... Why have you made me like this?” And, echoing Paul's response to this, who are you, Spiritual Israelite, to answer back to God? Not that that's what you mean to be doing, but, in effect, that's what you are doing. It's not Paul, or even me trying to "catch you" or anything. It is what it is.

Could we say "God is love" in that case? No. Yet, He is.

Ah, there it is. God is love! Well, yes, He is... :) But assigning human love, which is a far lesser thing than the love of God, to God Himself, is... a no-no. :) As for God's love, God does "endure with much patience these vessels of wrath..." even giving them great measures of grace ~ what we call "common grace," meaning common to all ~ even though they refuse to acknowledge it, suppressing it in unrighteousness. Even so, He yet invites them to come... the invitation is open to all, but still these "vessels of wrath" ~ even though it is evident in all that has been made ~ "suppress the truth in unrighteousness; they did/do not see fit to acknowledge God." So, God "(gives) them up to dishonorable passions..." ~ He actually lets them have what they want, lets them go their own way, even enduring them with much patience! ~ "...to a debased mind," and thus "...they were/are filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice."

And even in the end, God does not "wipe them out" (annihilationism is a heresy); they do live out eternity as we do, but just not with the One Who is Life, Jesus. They "live" through eternity ~ God does not annihilate any of His creation; He is not a murderer, of course; and again, in the end, He gives them exactly what they want, and, yes, this too is love. A different kind of love, you could say, but still love none the less... an executing of His perfect love in a much different way. God exercises what we might call "tough love" in far greater sense than the mere human concept of "tough love," now in the sense of lesser judgments, which even believers incur from time to time, and ultimately in the final Judgment which will be the ultimate "Tough Love."

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

Continued from above:

You do understand that rationalization isn't necessarily a bad thing?

Rationalizing something away regarding God's Word is never a good thing in any way.

You can't say I'm discounting it. I absolutely am not.

Ohhhhh... yes I can... and you are... :) You don't mean to be, for sure, but you are.

I'm not exactly sure what Calvinists think unbelievers are responsible for in the eyes of God? What do you think they are responsible for?

Well, the same as anyone else: acknowledging God for Who He is, worshiping Him as Creator rather than created things, not suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, and not pursuing their own glory (not glorifying themselves) rather than God's (glorifying Him). Now just in the words, that may seem simple, but it's a life thing, an all-encompassing thing, right?

I can see why that would make a Calvinist uncomfortable.

The severity of God and His eternal decrees are... well, should be, even for believers... a fearful thing. We are to fear God... which, of course, means far, far more than just being "scared" of Him.

...from the Calvinist perspective, how exactly does God love those who He predestined to condemn, take His wrath out on and cast into the lake of fire for eternity?

On "predestination to condemnation" ~
The only active predestination of persons by God ever discussed in the Bible is of those whom God foreknew ~ fore-loved... chose before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3) ~ to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:29), for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will (Ephesians 1:3-6).

However, we could, in some sense, say that those He does not predestine in this way are indirectly predestined to condemnation in the sense of exclusion. But as I say, we are all condemned (naturally, by nature; 2 Corinthans 2:14) from birth, even from conception, having inherited the same spiritual state of knowing sin ~ the sinful nature ~ that Adam and Eve, the mother of all the living, took on at the Fall in Genesis 3. So, really, the more correct way to put it is, those God does not predestine... by grace, remember... for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ remain under this condemnation throughout eternity. But even that shouldn't be understood to somehow mean that God never did or never will love them.

On those who He "takes His wrath out on" ~
These are those who ~ again, according to Romans 1 ~ have "suppressed the truth in unrighteousness," who have "pursued their own foolish passions, and God gave them up to their own way." So, in effect, you could say, as I said above, that they basically predestine themselves. The Arminian way is ~ inadvertently, at least ~ to have God compromising His perfect justice, and His glory, and thus even compromising Himself, for this human concept of love. He does not do that, Spiritual Israelite. Indeed, He cannot.

As I said before, He would be perfectly to leave us all to ourselves (because of our knowing sin, our sinful nature, our proneness to sin); none of us are deserving of His mercy or compassion or His grace. But yet He gives it to those whom He chooses, and this is His right as Creator. And again, for those who do experience this "second death" and eternal punishment, even that shouldn't be understood to somehow mean that God never did, doesn't, or never will love them. On a human level, if a parent punishes his or her son or daughter, does he or she do it because he or she is just... mad as @#$*... :) (pun intended) and hates his or her child? Well, no, the parent still loves the child, and the parent executes said punishment in love. As hard as it may be to really wrap our mind around, so it is with God, albeit on a much higher level.

Okay, it is enough. I'm sure you'll have a response, but it will be, well, like a tree falling in the forest... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[bluedragon]

How can Paul, martyred between 64 and 68 AD be quoting John in Revelation, that was not written until 98 AD?

I suppose Paul was editing and correcting John? Or is the dating wrong and everyone was living in the same neighborhood? Or did John, sitting in exile, plagiarize a lot of Paul, so they sound the same?

 

[PinSeeker]

How can Paul, martyred between 64 and 68 AD be quoting John in Revelation, that was not written until 98 AD?

I suppose Paul was editing and correcting John? Or is the dating wrong and everyone was living in the same neighborhood? Or did John, sitting in exile, plagiarize a lot of Paul, so they sound the same?

Or, was the real Author.. :) ...of all Scripture actually Someone... :) ...else?

Grace and peace to you, BlueDragon!

 

[bluedragon]

Or, was the real Author.. :) ...of all Scripture actually Someone... :) ...else?

Grace and peace to you, BlueDragon!

Supposedly this John is not a disciple. However, Paul is martyred and this John completes his work (Revelation) 30 years later ....I don't think John had copies of Paul's work .......

 

[PinSeeker]

Supposedly this John is not a disciple. However, Paul is martyred and this John completes his work (Revelation) 30 years later ....I don't think John had copies of Paul's work .......

I think you may be missing my point... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL!!! Okay, just a few things...

LOL!!!

Oh, I agree with you about context, and my exhortation to you would be, quit avoiding the context. My goodness.

I'm not doing that. My goodness yourself.

Okay:

"...these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."​

I don't really like posting in colors... :) ...but here it is instructive.

I do that myself, so I don't mind. It helps to differentiate the text within a passage when the situation calls for it.

Paul is obviously addressing Christians here ~ the Church in Corinth. And what he's doing, Spiritual Israelite,

Oh, are you going to tell me what he is doing, PinSeeker? Wow. How exciting. I can't wait, PinSeeker.

is contrasting the spirit the Christians in Corinth (in blue text above) ~ and we today, by extension, as we are Christians also ~ now have... that of Jesus; the Holy Spirit... to the spirit of the natural person (in red text above).

As Paul says in Ephesians 2:3, also speaking to Christians (the Church in Ephesus), "we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." And then, beginning with "But God..." he goes on to tell of their ~ and our ~ having been born again of the Spirit. He's doing the very same thing here with the Corinthians, but sort of in reverse, explaining our new orientation first, our spiritual state, our having the Holy Spirit, as opposed to our former spiritual state, the state that the natural person is still in: not having the Spirit of God, and thus not accepting of the things of the Spirit of God, thinking them to be folly and not able to understand them... yes, not able to comprehend the depths of, the thoughts of God.

What does any of this have to do with one's ability to recognize God's requirement for him or her to humble himself or herself, repent and put his or her trust in Jesus Christ as his or her personal Lord and Savior? The context there is the deeper things of God, not things like faith, repentance and the need for a Savior. It's what Paul shortly after that called "solid food" in contrast to the "milk" of God's word.

1 Corinthians 3:1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

What you are doing is saying that "the natural man" can't even understand the milk of God's word even though the ones Paul said "are still worldly" could understand that much. They just weren't ready to understand the deeper things like what we discuss on this forum. As I already have said (and that you have failed to refute - you tried, but failed) what Paul was saying is that the natural man can't understand the deeper things of God. The solid food. He was not saying that the natural man can't understand the basics or what Paul called the milk. So, you are definitely taking 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 out of context. If only you would have kept reading into 1 Corinthians 3, then maybe you would have noticed your mistake.

How you can still deny this is quite astounding.

LOL. It's quite astounding how you try to accuse me of missing the context of 1 Corinthians 2 when it is so clearly you that is missing the context. Partly because of your failure to take 1 Corinthians 3 into account.

Look at it again...

Such a silly thing to say. As if I haven't already looked at it many times. But, looking at it one more time with the help of someone who I know believes wrongly about all this is going to somehow make me change my mind? Think again.

"You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"​

So God is (obviously) the Potter, and all humanity is out of the same lump of clay, in Paul's metaphor. You know this. God made us all out of the same lump of clay.

Yes, I know that and, yet, you felt the need to tell me that, anyway. Waste of time.

And, also, remember the Ephesians 2 passage I pointed out above (for the umpteenth time...), specifically that all, initially ~ in their natural spiritual state ~ are "children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3).

Have I ever said otherwise? No. Why do you keep saying things to me like this as if I have said otherwise when I have not? Surely, all people need God's grace in order to help see their condition and their need for forgiveness and mercy. But, as scripture says...

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

It's verses like this that you fail to take into account. God would not offer salvation to all people if not all people had the potential and ability to accept it. But, you don't believe that because you believe that the only ones who will accept it do so because God has basically made them accept it by giving them faith that they automatically use, by God's design, to put their faith in Christ. But, that means His offer is not really for all people, but just for some people, which contradicts what Paul said in Titus 2:11.

Just one sin makes a person a sinner and separates them from God and makes them a child of wrath. But, in no way, shape or form does being a sinner make someone not able to do what God requires all people to do, which is to humble themselves, repent and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Jesus said He came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32). Look around you the next time you're out in public somewhere with a good number of people around. There will be sinners all around you. Do you think God is not calling all of those sinners to repentance? Jesus didn't say He came to call just some sinners to repentance. He just said sinners. Since all people have sinned (Romans 3:23) then we can know that He came to call all people to repent who have not already done so.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

For us Christians, though, this is no longer the case; we are no longer natural in spirit, as Paul then says: "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved..." (Ephesians 2:4-5).

Again, what you keep doing, Spiritual Israelite, is ~ yes you do... ~ you keep raising the very same objection that Paul heads of in Romans 9:19-20... "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?... Why have you made me like this?”

Nope. I have already covered this and you just ignore it. It's ridiculous. I am not asking those questions no matter how much you try to say that I am. You are lying. You don't speak for me. Paul is talking about people like Pharaoh, who he names specifically just before that, who God takes and uses for His purposes. But, that is only after He has given them opportunities to repent before that. But, if they repeatedly refuse to repent, God has every right to do with them as He pleases if He so chooses. Like He did with Pharaoh. So, I do NOT ask those questions that Paul referenced because they are in relation to people like Pharaoh who God uses for His purposes whenever He pleases. It doesn't mean God chose Him for that purpose even from his birth without ever giving him any chance to be saved. That's where you are mistaken. By trying to say that, you contradict that God offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11). All people except people like Pharaoh? No, that's not what it says. All people without exception.

As you always do, you draw conclusions from isolated verses or passages without being careful to make sure your conclusions don't contradict any other scripture. That is your downfall.

And, echoing Paul's response to this, who are you, Spiritual Israelite, to answer back to God?

Who are you to falsely accuse me of answering back to God when I have not done that? You are a liar.

Not that that's what you mean to be doing, but, in effect, that's what you are doing.

No, it is not what I'm doing. You are falsely representing what I believe and it's not appreciated. You are a liar.

It's not Paul, or even me trying to "catch you" or anything. It is what it is.

It is you misrepresenting what I believe. It's not your place to tell me what I believe. I will tell you what I believe.

Ah, there it is. God is love! Well, yes, He is...

Tell me, PinSeeker, how exactly does a God who is love create people with (supposedly) no opportunity to be saved and who are instead destined to the lake of fire for eternity from birth? Please explain that, PinSeeker. If you want to be taken seriously, that is. Clearly, God does not love those people but I would think that a God who is love would love all people. In your doctrine He does not. In mine, He does, which is why He offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11).

But assigning human love, which is a far lesser thing than the love of God, to God Himself, is... a no-no.

I have not done that. You once again are misrepresenting my view. But, this time possibly not on purpose. I don't know where you got this idea from, though. It's not what I believe.

As for God's love, God does "endure with much patience these vessels of wrath..." even giving them great measures of grace ~ what we call "common grace,"

Yeah, what you and the false doctrine you believe in call "common grace". Not what scripture calls common grace.

meaning common to all ~ even though they refuse to acknowledge it, suppressing it in unrighteousness.

Do you believe they could have accepted it but chose not to instead?

Even so, He yet invites them to come... the invitation is open to all, but still these "vessels of wrath" ~ even though it is evident in all that has been made ~ "suppress the truth in unrighteousness; they did/do not see fit to acknowledge God."

What invitation are you talking about exactly? He invites them to come and do what exactly? And what is the reason they don't, keeping in mind that they have no excuse for not doing so?

So, God "(gives) them up to dishonorable passions..." ~ He actually lets them have what they want, lets them go their own way, even enduring them with much patience! ~ "...to a debased mind," and thus "...they were/are filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice."

But, it isn't that God wanted them to want to go their own way. But, in your doctrine, He does not want them to repent and believe as evidenced by Him not giving them repentance and faith. But, scripture says people choose to go their own way and not that they naturally refuse to go the way God wants them to.

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Notice here how God talks about people choosing their own ways before giving them over to their own fears and giving them delusions (similar to what Paul writes about in 2 Thess 2:9-12). It isn't that they couldn't have chosen to go God's way instead. If they could only "choose" to go their own ways, then that is not really a choice at all. A choice involves at least 2 possible, valid options where one can legitimately choose between those options. In your doctrine, there is no choice in the matter by man and it's all up to God's choice. That just contradicts so much scripture, such as the passage I quoted above.

And even in the end, God does not "wipe them out" (annihilationism is a heresy); they do live out eternity as we do, but just not with the One Who is Life, Jesus. They "live" through eternity ~ God does not annihilate any of His creation; He is not a murderer, of course; and again, in the end, He gives them exactly what they want, and, yes, this too is love.

But, you don't believe they had any choice in the matter and you don't believe God gave them any opportunity to have any other destiny. How is that love? Are you kidding me? It's absolutely not love at all. It's just the opposite. It would be hate to do that to people. Thankfully, that's not what God does. Instead, He offers them salvation which means they don't end up in the lake of fire because God predestined that for them, but rather because they foolishly chose to reject God's offer. That puts the blame solely on them. But, in your doctrine the blame would be on God for hating those people so much that He purposely destined them for His wrath and eternity in the lake of fire. If you only knew how much your doctrine contradicts the character of God!

Surely, you can't say that God loves people who He takes His wrath out on despite never even giving them the opportunity to be saved. That's utter nonsense.

A different kind of love, you could say, but still love none the less... an executing of His perfect love in a much different way. God exercises what we might call "tough love" in far greater sense than the mere human concept of "tough love," now in the sense of lesser judgments, which even believers incur from time to time, and ultimately in the final Judgment which will be the ultimate "Tough Love."

Tough love from God would be when He disciplines us in order to correct us so that we grow spiritually. But, to predestine people to His wrath and eternity in the lake of fire? That's not tough love! That isn't for the purpose of correction. It's too late for them at that point. That is not love of any kind! Are you even thinking about what you're saying here? Who do you think you're kidding with this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rationalizing something away regarding God's Word is never a good thing in any way.

The word rationalize can be used in the sense of explaining something accurately or it can be used in the sense of explaining something away. That is the only point I was making. But, with this response, you want to make it look like I said that rationalizing something away can be a good thing, which is not what I said at all and you know it. That's not an honest debate tactic, PinSeeker. Is honesty something that matters to you?

Ohhhhh... yes I can... and you are... :) You don't mean to be, for sure, but you are.

Here you go again trying to speak for me and tell me what my motives are and what I believe instead of me telling that to you. Get off your high horse and stop acting like you know what I believe better than I do. You don't.

Well, the same as anyone else: acknowledging God for Who He is, worshiping Him as Creator rather than created things, not suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, and not pursuing their own glory (not glorifying themselves) rather than God's (glorifying Him). Now just in the words, that may seem simple, but it's a life thing, an all-encompassing thing, right?

This was your response to my question regarding what unbelievers (or the non-elect) are responsible for. So, what is the reason then that they don't acknowledge God for who He is and worship Him as Creator, and the reason that the suppress the truth in unrighteousness and glorify themselves instead of God? If they are responsible for doing those things then that means God expects them to do those things, right? That's why it says they have no excuse for not doing so, right? So, what else can we conclude except that they choose to not acknowledge and worship God and choose to suppress the truth in unrighteousness while pursuing their own glory instead of God's? And what else can we conclude except that they could and should have chosen to acknowledge and worship God, not suppress the truth and glorify God instead?

So, what if they had made the choice to acknowledge and worship God, etc. instead of choosing not to do those things? Would they not be saved? Those who are thankful to the one true God and worship the one true God are the kind of people who are saved, right? You might ask, well, what about Jesus? As we can see in scripture with examples like Lydia and Cornelius, those who choose to worship the one true God are naturally receptive to the gospel. So, what Romans 1 shows is that everyone is responsible to make a choice between worshiping God and accepting the truth of the gospel or rejecting it. And both options are legitimate choices for all people with God not making the choice for anyone. Scripture indicates that God wants all people to make the choice to repent and worship Him instead of His creation while accepting the truth instead of rejecting it. Your doctrine denies that, but Romans 1 makes it very clear that this is true.

On "predestination to condemnation" ~
The only active predestination of persons by God ever discussed in the Bible is of those whom God foreknew ~ fore-loved... chose before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3) ~ to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:29), for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will (Ephesians 1:3-6).

However, we could, in some sense, say that those He does not predestine in this way are indirectly predestined to condemnation in the sense of exclusion.

LOL. Of course we could say that and I do say that is what you believe. You just hesitate to do so because you know how that makes God look. You won't admit it, but it clearly contradicts God's character as described in the Bible. Clearly, if someone has no chance at any other destiny but condemnation to the lake of fire for eternity because God made it that way for them, then it means He predestined that destiny for them. It's very obvious. And you are understandably uncomfortable about it because it just makes no sense. It doesn't line up with a God who is love. It doesn't line up with the God who wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6). It doesn't line up with a God who sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2).

But as I say, we are all condemned (naturally, by nature; 2 Corinthans 2:14) from birth, even from conception, having inherited the same spiritual state of knowing sin ~ the sinful nature ~ that Adam and Eve, the mother of all the living, took on at the Fall in Genesis 3.

As you say, but not as scripture says.

So, is it your view that all babies who die, even if they die in the womb since you said "even from conception", are condemned to an eternity in the lake of fire? That would be the logical conlusion to draw from what you said here. Of course, there's nothing logical at all about believing such nonsense, but you must believe that if you believe what you said here.

So, really, the more correct way to put it is, those God does not predestine... by grace, remember... for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ remain under this condemnation throughout eternity. But even that shouldn't be understood to somehow mean that God never did or never will love them.

LOL. I'm not sure who you think you're fooling with this nonsense, but you're not fooling me. You can't possibly convince me that God loves people who are supposedly condemned from birth and never get any opportunity to be saved. No, that's not love at all.

On those who He "takes His wrath out on" ~
These are those who ~ again, according to Romans 1 ~ have "suppressed the truth in unrighteousness," who have "pursued their own foolish passions, and God gave them up to their own way." So, in effect, you could say, as I said above, that they basically predestine themselves.

LOL. What does that even mean? Man is not capable of predestining himself. How could that even be possible? You just don't like to use the words "choose" or "choice", do you? They choose to suppress the truth in unrighteousness and have no excuse for doing so. Your doctrine gives them an excuse because it says they can not do anything but suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Your doctrine says they are not capable of not suppressing the truth by choice and could only do that if God basically made them do that by giving them faith and repentance.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Arminian way is ~ inadvertently, at least ~ to have God compromising His perfect justice, and His glory, and thus even compromising Himself, for this human concept of love. He does not do that, Spiritual Israelite. Indeed, He cannot.

I don't even know what you're saying here. Please explain what you mean in a straightforward way.

As I said before, He would be perfectly to leave us all to ourselves (because of our knowing sin, our sinful nature, our proneness to sin); none of us are deserving of His mercy or compassion or His grace.

I agree with this. Does that surprise you? The way you sometimes misrepresent my view, I think it might.

But, because God is love, He wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:30-32) and graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11). So, you are only telling part of the story here, which is typical.

But yet He gives it to those whom He chooses, and this is His right as Creator.

Yes, but He doesn't do so randomly or for reasons that aren't made known to us. That's where you are mistaken. He wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:30-32). So, the fact that He doesn't implies that there's something man does or doesn't do that He requires man to do that causes Him to have mercy on some and not on the rest. Otherwise, it would be a lie that He wants to have mercy on all people, as scripture teaches. He proved that He is willing to have mercy on all people by sending His Son to die for the sins of all people (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2). But, he makes all people responsible to repent (Acts 17:30). He does not make anyone do so. Everyone must choose. As Joshua said, "choose this day who you will serve". God makes everyone responsible to make that choice and He doesn't make that choice for anyone.

And again, for those who do experience this "second death" and eternal punishment, even that shouldn't be understood to somehow mean that God never did, doesn't, or never will love them.

LOL. I cannot take comments like this seriously. Please explain to me how God loves people that He supposedly punishes for eternity without having given them any opportunity to be saved from that punishment. Good luck with coming up with a convincing explanation.

In my view He did love them. Enough to die for them. But, they chose not to accept what He did for them. Sending them to the lake of fire is not His desire for them. He does not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). If punishing them for eternity in the lake of fire was what He planned for them from birth, then He would take pleasure in their deaths because He would be doing exactly what He had planned for them. Surely, God takes pleasure in things that go according to His plan. But, He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked or in their punishment.

On a human level, if a parent punishes his or her son or daughter, does he or she do it because he or she is just... mad as @#$*... (pun intended) and hates his or her child? Well, no, the parent still loves the child, and the parent executes said punishment in love. As hard as it may be to really wrap our mind around, so it is with God, albeit on a much higher level.

This is a horrible and invalid analogy. I truly wonder who you are trying to kid with some of the things you say. Parents punish children TEMPORARILY for the purpose of CORRECTING them so that they will stop misbehaving. Is that the purpose for God punishing people ETERNALLY in the lake of fire? No, of course not! It isn't as if anyone there will ever repent. It will be too late for that at that point. So, how in the world do you think your analogy is valid? There is no comparison between punishing kids temporarily and punishing people eternally. I truly am amazed that you thought I (or anyone) would buy this. I'm not even sure if you truly buy this analogy. Were you just not thinking when you said this? Surely, you can understand that comparing the temporary punishment of kids is no comparision whatsoever to the eternal punishment of unbelievers? I'm sure you can. Yet, you said what you did here, anyway, for some reason.

Okay, it is enough. I'm sure you'll have a response, but it will be, well, like a tree falling in the forest...

Only in your case. I don't expect you to stop being stubborn while clinging to your false doctrine. But, others here who might be reading our discussion can see which one of us are speaking the truth and which one of us is not. I'm doing this for them moreso than for you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can Paul, martyred between 64 and 68 AD be quoting John in Revelation, that was not written until 98 AD?

I suppose Paul was editing and correcting John? Or is the dating wrong and everyone was living in the same neighborhood? Or did John, sitting in exile, plagiarize a lot of Paul, so they sound the same?

What are you talking about exactly? Since you didn't quote whatever it is you are responding to, I can't tell what you are talking about. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with Paul writing about the last trumpet and John writing about the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the book of Revelation?

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker: ...contrasting the spirit the Christians in Corinth (in blue text above) ~ and we today, by extension, as we are Christians also ~ now have... that of Jesus; the Holy Spirit... to the spirit of the natural person (in red text above)...​

What does any of this have to do with one's ability to recognize God's requirement for him or her to humble himself or herself, repent and put his or her trust in Jesus Christ as his or her personal Lord and Savior?

What a strange question to ask... But more avoidance. I get it... But to answer your question, nothing in and of itself. Yeah, I understand the Arminian thing very well; it's all about free will, which is a total miss of the point. It's about the nature of the person, the spirit in him or her, what that person is at heart. It really has nothing to do with the will, other than that it drives the will. The person will always act in accordance to his or her nature, his or her spirit, his or her true inner self, his or her heart.

What you are doing is saying that "the natural man" can't even understand the milk of God's word...

No... it is very possible to know all about God, yet still not know God. In other words, it's very possible to understand the Bible, even in great measure ~ and even to love this knowledge ~ but still not have a personal relationship with and love the Word (Jesus), and even thus to consider the Gospel, the Good News of Christ, foolishness. This would be a form of idolatry.

PinSeeker: ...remember the Ephesians 2 passage I pointed out above (for the umpteenth time...), specifically that all, initially ~ in their natural spiritual state ~ are "children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3).​

Have I ever said otherwise? No. Why do you keep saying things to me like this as if I have said otherwise when I have not?

The point was, with this in mind, it makes it impossible to make the statement you made previous to that ~ "that passage has nothing to do with God making someone a vessel of wrath even from birth." So, as I said, you agree with this, but but then still turn right around and refute it. The natural spiritual state is the spiritual state we have at birth. Again, Spiritual Israelite, I'm not trying to "catch you" or have some kind of "gotcha moment" at your expense. It just is what it is. And you apparently agree and disagree at the same time, which... yeah, wow. Okay, but wow.

Surely, all people need God's grace in order to help see their condition and their need for forgiveness and mercy.

Hmm... God gives his mercy and compassion, and this is His grace ~ His unmerited favor. Jacobus Arminius got that backwards. If one is not given mercy and compassion by God and made one of His elect, he or she will always remain of the opinion that there is no need for forgiveness; he or she will always regard the Gospel as foolishness... because he or she does not have the Spirit, because he or she has not been born of the Spirit. As Jesus tells Nicodemus in John 3:6-8, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

But, as scripture says...

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

To offer something and to give something are two very different things, Spiritual Israelite. God does both, but while the offer is general to all, the giving is specific only to some.

God would not offer salvation to all people if not all people had the potential and ability to accept it.

It's not about whether they can or cannot, it's about whether they will or will not.

• Remember the Jews Jesus was speaking to in John 10, when He said to them, "...you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." He did not say "...you are not among my sheep because you do not believe." Again, it's not about someone's mere ability to do this or that. It's about what they are ~ whose they are, really ~ at the core of their being.
• Backing up just a bit to John 8, Jesus tells a group of Jews there, "Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires."

But, you don't believe that because you believe that the only ones who will accept it do so because God has basically made them accept it by giving them faith that they automatically use, by God's design, to put their faith in Christ.

He has changed who they are ~ given them a new heart, a new spirit... removed the heart of stone from their flesh and given them a heart of flesh... has put His Spirit within them, and caused them to walk in His statutes and to be careful to obey His rules (Ezekiel 36:26-27). So God has created in them the "new man," as Paul puts it in 2 Corinthians, and their will is no longer to do the devil's desires, because he is no longer their father, but to do God's will, because God is their Father. And thus, thanks be to God, those who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness (Romans 6:17-18). And so then, as believers, they can then work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in them, so that they then both will and work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

But, that means His offer is not really for all people, but just for some people...

No, His offer is free for all people. But sadly, only some will come. See how Jesus ends his Wedding Feast parable: "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

I am not asking those questions no matter how much you try to say that I am...

You don't mean to be, but in effect, that's exactly what you're doing.

Tell me, PinSeeker, how exactly does a God who is love create people with (supposedly) no opportunity to be saved, and who are instead destined to the lake of fire for eternity from birth? Please explain that, PinSeeker.

He doesn't, and I've told you that many times, and explained why, even again in this post.

Do you believe they could have accepted it but chose not to instead? That's what usually happens when someone regards something as foolishness, no?

Yes.

... in your doctrine, He does not want them to repent and believe as evidenced by Him not giving them repentance and faith.

Not at all.

Tough love from God would be when He disciplines us in order to correct us so that we grow spiritually.

For believers, yes; God disciplines those He loves. God treats us as sons; what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If we are left without discipline then we are illegitimate children and not sons. God disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness. You know this; this is straight out of Hebrews 12.

But, to predestine people to His wrath and eternity in the lake of fire?

I just told you that the only predestining God does is of those whom He chooses from before the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of His Son. But yet you keep saying this and attributing it to me...

That's not tough love!

It's a holy love. Which we cannot fully wrap our finite minds around, but still, holy love.

That isn't for the purpose of correction.

It's for the purpose of God's justice, and even greater than that, His glory.

That is not love of any kind!

You're welcome to your opinion, of course.

Are you even thinking about what you're saying here?

Yes. Many, many, many times over. They are hard truths. But truths they are.

Who do you think you're kidding with this?

No one.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

...what is the reason then that they don't acknowledge God for who He is and worship Him as Creator, and the reason that the suppress the truth in unrighteousness and glorify themselves instead of God?

Remember what Jesus tells that group of Jews in John 8... See above...

...God expects them to do those things, right?

God is not surprised by anything.

That's why it says they have no excuse for not doing so, right?

Right.

So, what else can we conclude except that they choose to not acknowledge and worship God and choose to suppress the truth in unrighteousness while pursuing their own glory instead of God's?

Right, and why do they choose this, Spiritual Israelite? Not because "God made them..." :) See above...

...what if they had made the choice to acknowledge and worship God, etc. instead of choosing not to do those things? Would they not be saved?

Sure, but many do not... because... :) See above...

Those who are thankful to the one true God and worship the one true God are the kind of people who are saved, right? You might ask, well, what about Jesus? As we can see in scripture with examples like Lydia and Cornelius, those who choose to worship the one true God are naturally receptive to the gospel.

Not naturally... You will agree, I'm quite sure, that in order for one to choose to worship God, He or she has to believe God is Who He says He is, right? Well, remember, Jesus asked His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” Jesus said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." So, again, as for unbelievers, as Jesus says directly in John 10, they do not believe because they are not among His sheep. And Jesus goes on to say, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

So, is it your view that all babies who die, even if they die in the womb since you said "even from conception", are condemned to an eternity in the lake of fire?

Ah, I knew this was coming at some point... :) Well, we know that John knew he was in the presence of His Savior even while they were both still in the womb (John in Elizabeth's, and Jesus in Mary's). So, I would say that it's possible for God to change the heart of anyone regardless of age, as evidenced by John in Luke 1. Do I believe all babies who die in the womb go to heaven? Maybe, but I'm inclined to think not. I believe that, as is the case with people of any age, some unborn children are elect of God and born again of the Spirit, and some are not. But again, I'm just inclined to think that; we cannot know.

You can't possibly convince me that God loves people who are supposedly condemned from birth and never get any opportunity to be saved.

That's not what I've said.

LOL. What does that even mean? Man is not capable of predestining himself.

Right; I was just saying that, in a manner of speaking, you could put it that way, but it would be a very clumsy way of putting it. That was my point. All I was saying was that because of the Fall, we are born with the same sinful nature that Adam and Eve acquired, and because of this sinful nature, we are all deserving of condemnation, even from birth. Which you agreed with.

Your doctrine says they are not capable of not suppressing the truth by choice...

No, it does not; that's just your perception... misperception, as it were.

...and could only do that if God basically made them do that by giving them faith and repentance.

Not "could," but would. If they are not born again of the Spirit, by the grace of God, they will continue in their death in sin... they will continue to have the devil as their father and thus their wills will be to do his will... and they will not repent.

I don't even know what you're saying here.

Yes, I know.

PinSeeker: As I said before, He would be perfectly just to leave us all to ourselves (because of our knowing sin, our sinful nature, our proneness to sin); none of us are deserving of His mercy or compassion or His grace​

I agree with this. Does that surprise you?

No. But if He were to leave us to ourselves, wouldn't that necessarily mean we were that way from birth? It would, and does, but yet you refute that, which is... puzzling.

...because God is love, He wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:30-32) and graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11).

Well, right, but He doesn't. So somehow, you have to reconcile that, and the only way you can is that there is a pretty big difference between offering something and actually granting/giving it.

So, you are only telling part of the story here...

Think what you will...

He wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:30-32).

Well sure, but He doesn't. The Bible is clear in saying that not all will be saved. As Moses and Paul both say, He has mercy on whom He wills, and compassion on whom He wills. So, see above...

So, the fact that He doesn't implies that there's something man does or doesn't do that He requires man to do that causes Him to have mercy on some and not on the rest.

So your works save you? No. Our good works are the natural result of our being born again of the Spirit. As Paul says in Ephesians 2, "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Please explain to me how God loves people that He supposedly punishes for eternity without having given them any opportunity to be saved from that punishment. Good luck with coming up with a convincing explanation.

Sigh. See above.

If punishing them for eternity in the lake of fire was what He planned for them from birth...

Sigh. It's not. See above.

Parents punish children TEMPORARILY for the purpose of CORRECTING them so that they will stop misbehaving.

Sure. But the point there was that when they punish their children, and they do so hopefully in love. Punishment is an expression of love by the one administering the punishment. What would not be an expression of love is not caring... disregard. And too, if the child's misbehavior is mistreatment of his or her sibling, then the parent is exacting some form of justice, no?

Is that the purpose for God punishing people ETERNALLY in the lake of fire?

He satisfies His perfect justice. But I would still submit to you that He never, never, stops loving those people. Even His judgment, while it may not seem like it to us, is loving... a negative expression of love. And holy. And just. And perfect.

...others here who might be reading our discussion can see which one of us are speaking the truth and which one of us is not

Yes, I hope so.

I'm doing this for them...

No you're not. :)

Grace and peace to you, Spiritual Israelite.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What a strange question to ask... But more avoidance. I get it... But to answer your question, nothing in and of itself. Yeah, I understand the Arminian thing very well; it's all about free will, which is a total miss of the point. It's about the nature of the person, the spirit in him or her, what that person is at heart. It really has nothing to do with the will, other than that it drives the will. The person will always act in accordance to his or her nature, his or her spirit, his or her true inner self, his or her heart.

Ironic for you to accuse me of avoidance when you completely avoided specifically addressing any of my points about what 1 Corinthians 2:14 actually means.

No... it is very possible to know all about God, yet still not know God. In other words, it's very possible to understand the Bible, even in great measure ~ and even to love this knowledge ~ but still not have a personal relationship with and love the Word (Jesus), and even thus to consider the Gospel, the Good News of Christ, foolishness. This would be a form of idolatry.

As you so often do, you missed my point. I gave Lydia and Cornelius as examples. It says they were worshipers of God even before hearing the gospel. So, I wasn't talking about people who know about God, I was talking about people who know God and worship Him. Those people are naturally attracted to the gospel message just like Lydia and Cornelius were. Those who know God know that sending His Son to die for their sins is exactly the kind of thing that God would do.

The point was, with this in mind, it makes it impossible to make the statement you made previous to that ~ "that passage has nothing to do with God making someone a vessel of wrath even from birth." So, as I said, you agree with this, but but then still turn right around and refute it. The natural spiritual state is the spiritual state we have at birth. Again, Spiritual Israelite, I'm not trying to "catch you" or have some kind of "gotcha moment" at your expense. It just is what it is. And you apparently agree and disagree at the same time, which... yeah, wow. Okay, but wow.

You only don't understand because your thinking is so limited. You are brainwashed by Calvinism. Being naturally a child of wrath is not the same as being a vessel of wrath. As Paul said we are all children of wrath before any of us are saved. But, we don't all actually experience God's wrath, obviously. That's a different context than when Paul talked about the vessels of wrath. Pharoah would be an example of a vessel of wrath. Once God made Pharaoh into a vessel of wrath, there was no chance for him to repent and avoid God's wrath. God had already decided to use Pharaoh to show his power and He already planned to take His wrath out on him well before He actually did. So, you have failed to see the difference in context between the two passages, which is nothing new for you. Wow, indeed.

Hmm... God gives his mercy and compassion, and this is His grace ~ His unmerited favor.

You are not thinking this through carefully enough. God extends His grace to all people (Titus 2:11). But, He does not have mercy on all people (otherwise, all people would go to hell).

Why does scripture say that God gives mercy to those who put their trust in Him (Psalm 32:10) and to those who are merciful (Matthew 5:7) if, according to you, His giving of mercy is unconditional? This is yet another question that you can't answer.

To offer something and to give something are two very different things, Spiritual Israelite. God does both, but while the offer is general to all, the giving is specific only to some.

LOL. You always avoid addressing the tough questions. You respond with a lot of words that say nothing.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

In my view, the salvation that God offers to all people is a legitimate and sincere offer. It means that all people are capable of choosing to either accept or reject it or else it wouldn't be offered to them. But your doctrine says that this is not a legitimate and sincere offer to some people and is only "offered" to those who God has predestined to "accept" it.

Your doctrine completely contradicts verses like this and the verses that say Jesus died for the sins of everyone, that God wants everyone to repent and that God wants everyone to be saved. But, you are too stubborn to admit that.

It's not about whether they can or cannot, it's about whether they will or will not.

LOL. It's not surprising that you try to spin it this way. No matter how you want to put it, everyone is made responsible to choose who to serve and what to believe. It is not the case that the only "choice" some people have is that they will not believe.

• Remember the Jews Jesus was speaking to in John 10, when He said to them, "...you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." He did not say "...you are not among my sheep because you do not believe." Again, it's not about someone's mere ability to do this or that. It's about what they are ~ whose they are, really ~ at the core of their being.

You are badly misinterpreting that verse. Jesus was simply saying that since they were not His sheep, they do not believe since only His sheep believe. He was not indicating there in any way, shape or form that they believed because they were made His sheep by having been given faith by God as you falsely believe.

He has changed who they are ~ given them a new heart, a new spirit... removed the heart of stone from their flesh and given them a heart of flesh... has put His Spirit within them, and caused them to walk in His statutes and to be careful to obey His rules (Ezekiel 36:26-27). So God has created in them the "new man," as Paul puts it in 2 Corinthians, and their will is no longer to do the devil's desires, because he is no longer their father, but to do God's will, because God is their Father. And thus, thanks be to God, those who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness (Romans 6:17-18).

God only does that for those who choose to humble themselves, confess that they are sinners and surrender their lives to Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

Calvinism says that God gives people faith and that people are not required to do anything of themselves in order to be saved. Clearly, Paul and Silas were not Calvinists:

Acts 16:30 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

If Calvinism was true, then Paul and Silas would've been mistaken because there was no way to know if he was among God's elect or not. If he wasn't, then what they said to him would've been a lie. They instead should have said "There is nothing you can do. If you are lucky enough to be one of God's elect, then He will give you the faith you need to be saved.".

And so then, as believers, they can then work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in them, so that they then both will and work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

How exactly can believers "work out their own salvation" in a Calvinist sense? What does that require? Doesn't that imply that their will is involved in salvation and that they are partly responsible for their salvation (with God obviously doing the rest)? It sure does to me.

No, His offer is free for all people. But sadly, only some will come. See how Jesus ends his Wedding Feast parable: "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

In your doctrine the offer is not legitimate and sincere for the non-elect. Is that the kind of God we serve? He mocks those people by giving them a fake offer to be part of the bride of Christ that He knows they won't and can't accept?

You don't mean to be, but in effect, that's exactly what you're doing.

Here you are trying to tell me what I'm doing again. That is foolish.

I just told you that the only predestining God does is of those whom He chooses from before the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of His Son. But yet you keep saying this and attributing it to me...

Why do you try to skate around this? What is the reason that unbelievers are destined to hell? Is it not because God created them in such a way that they are destined to hell from birth? How can you try to act as if you don't believe that people who end up in hell were not predestined to be there? Why do you have such a hard time being honest about that? Because you know it violates God's character to do that to people? God is love and a God who is love would not do that. Instead, He would make a legitimate and sincere offer of salvation to them while making them capable of choosing to either accept or reject it. That's grace. But, in your doctrine, God does not offer any grace to those people who He creates that are destined for hell from birth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Right, and why do they choose this, Spiritual Israelite? Not because "God made them..." :) See above...

PinSeeker, why do you have so much trouble being honest? You should know better than that.

What you believe is that God creates some people who never believe and end up in hell because He made them that way. You don't believe that they could choose to believe instead, so how can you act as if God didn't make them in such a way that they would never believe? Because, according to you, they can only believe if God gives them faith? It's dishonest for you to not acknowledge that God makes them the way they are which results in them being destined for punishment in the lake of fire for eternity just as He intended for them.

Ah, I knew this was coming at some point... :) Well, we know that John knew he was in the presence of His Savior even while they were both still in the womb (John in Elizabeth's, and Jesus in Mary's). So, I would say that it's possible for God to change the heart of anyone regardless of age, as evidenced by John in Luke 1. Do I believe all babies who die in the womb go to heaven? Maybe, but I'm inclined to think not.

This is just mind boggling, but at least this belief lines up with your overall beliefs and lines up with the comment you made previously. It really would make no sense for you to think any other way since you said you believe that people are either elect or non-elect from conception.

But, does this line up with God's character as described in scripture? Not at all! This is why this is a serious topic. You are contradicting God's character with your beliefs. God is love (1 John 4:8). You clearly don't understand what that means. It means that He loves all people enough to send His Son to die for their sins (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2) so that they could have eternal life. But, sending babies, even babies who die in the womb, straight to hell? God forbid! That is horrible for you to believe such a thing! What have they done to deserve that? Babies can't sin. But, God sends some babies who die to hell? Why would He do that? Explain that to me.

I believe that, as is the case with people of any age, some unborn children are elect of God and born again of the Spirit, and some are not. But again, I'm just inclined to think that; we cannot know.

You are just inclined to believe something horrific like that. What does that say about you? Nothing good.

Right; I was just saying that, in a manner of speaking, you could put it that way, but it would be a very clumsy way of putting it. That was my point. All I was saying was that because of the Fall, we are born with the same sinful nature that Adam and Eve acquired, and because of this sinful nature, we are all deserving of condemnation, even from birth. Which you agreed with.

Sure, but that's only part of the story. Because of God's grace, all people have a legitimate opportunity to be saved (Titus 2:11). But your doctrine denies that.

Well, right, but He doesn't. So somehow, you have to reconcile that, and the only way you can is that there is a pretty big difference between offering something and actually granting/giving it.

Already covered this in the other post, but this is just complete nonsense. You believe that God offers all people salvation, but that the offer is not legitimate and sincere for some people. That is just ridiculous.

Think what you will...

Are you sure? Or will I think whatever God predestined me to think?

Well sure, but He doesn't. The Bible is clear in saying that not all will be saved. As Moses and Paul both say, He has mercy on whom He wills, and compassion on whom He wills. So, see above...

And He wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:30-32). You're always only looking at part of the picture instead of the big picture.

So your works save you? No. Our good works are the natural result of our being born again of the Spirit.

Did I say otherwise? I absolutely did not. Are you purposely trying to misrepresent what I believe here?

As Paul says in Ephesians 2, "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Faith is not a work. That's what you don't get. Paul differentiated between faith and works. Salvation IS through faith, but NOT through works. Your doctrinal bias is keeping you from seeing the difference. Just read James 2. He differentiated between faith and works as well. He indicated they go hand in hand ("faith without works is dead") because after you put your faith in Christ, then you naturally, led by the Holy Spirit, will do the good works that God prepared for you to do.

Sure. But the point there was that when they punish their children, and they do so hopefully in love. Punishment is an expression of love by the one administering the punishment. What would not be an expression of love is not caring... disregard. And too, if the child's misbehavior is mistreatment of his or her sibling, then the parent is exacting some form of justice, no?

Are you not going to address my point? There is no basis for comparing a TEMPORARY punishment that has the goal of CORRECTION to an ETERNAL one that does not have the goal of correction, but rather of "ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" (Matthew 25:46)? So, why are you still trying to do that as if I would take this seriously?

He satisfies His perfect justice. But I would still submit to you that He never, never, stops loving those people. Even His judgment, while it may not seem like it to us, is loving... a negative expression of love. And holy. And just. And perfect.

LOL. I can't take you seriously. You are trying to tell me that God never stops loving the people He created purposely to spend ETERNITY in the lake of fire to experience ETERNAL PUNISHMENT. That is the biggest pile of nonsense imaginable.

 

[bluedragon]

Any date estimated by scholars, is based on knowledge of the death date of the author, or based on what fragments they have on hand from the writings.

What are you talking about exactly? Since you didn't quote whatever it is you are responding to, I can't tell what you are talking about. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with Paul writing about the last trumpet and John writing about the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the book of Revelation?

The statement made was that Paul had quoted John's work in Revelation. My question back was How can that be? Considering Paul passed in 64-66AD and Revelation was supposedly not written until 95-98AD?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Any date estimated by scholars, is based on knowledge of the death date of the author, or based on what fragments they have on hand from the writings.

The statement made was that Paul had quoted John's work in Revelation. My question back was How can that be? Considering Paul passed in 64-66AD and Revelation was supposedly not written until 95-98AD?

Good question. I certainly disagree that Paul quoted from the book of Revelation. Not possible.

 

[PinSeeker]

Ironic for you to accuse me of avoidance when you completely avoided specifically addressing any of my points about what 1 Corinthians 2:14 actually means.

I didn't avoid it, I dismissed it out of hand, for obvious reasons that I made very clear in my response.

As you so often do, you missed my point.

No, I dismissed your attempt at diverting from the issue at hand... or making it something other than what it is.

I gave Lydia and Cornelius as examples. It says they were worshipers of God even before hearing the gospel.

Right, God had already changed their hearts prior to hearing what Paul had to say. Regarding Lydia, we read in Acts 16 that "(t)he Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul." I'm sure you know Hebrews 11... we are all saved the same way. Surely, we all make the decision to worship God instead of creation at some point in our lives; no one is denying that we do. But the changing of the heart ~ the second birth, birth of the Holy Spirit ~ comes before that and makes this decision possible. Take a look at Acts 13:48, where the Gentiles spoken of there hear Paul's words, and they come to believe in the Lord: "...when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the Word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." This is how salvation works, SI. The initial act is God's, and our response is inevitable. Using a concordance, do a word search on the word 'appointed.' You will find some very interesting things. Yet again, those who do not believe, do not believe because they are not among Jesus's sheep, those given to Him by the Father.

...naturally attracted to the gospel message just like Lydia and Cornelius were.

Supernaturally. They are given a new spirit by God, and then they are compelled ~ of their own free will and accord ~ to accept the Gospel and call on the Lord, and to worship Him rather than any created thing. And thus, they repent and believe.

You are not thinking this through carefully enough.

I say you are refusing to do that. It really doesn't take some monumental effort...

Your doctrine completely contradicts verses like this and the verses that say Jesus died for the sins of everyone...

Not at all. In one sense Jesus did die for the sins of everyone ~ "to take away the sin of the world," that Jesus's work on the cross is sufficient to provide for the salvation of everyone. But in another sense, Jesus's work on the cross was only effectual for, and achieved the salvation of, those whom God chose in Him before the foundation of the world, that they should be holy and blameless before Him, those whom, in love, He predestined for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will (Ephesians 1)... those who, as were the Gentile believers in Acts 13:48 above, are appointed to eternal life.

...everyone is made responsible to choose who to serve and what to believe.

Sure they are. I have never denied this.

It is not the case that the only "choice" some people have is that they will not believe.

I never said or intimated in any way such.

Jesus was simply saying that since they were not His sheep, they do not believe since only His sheep believe.

No, He uses the word 'because' ~ in the Greek, γάρ (a primary particle; properly, assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles) ~ which irrefutably indicates a cause-effect relationship. They do not believe because they are not among His sheep. We can also very credibly say that they did not believe because they were not given to Him by the Father, because He does, in the very same breath, say that His sheep are His sheep because they have been given to Him by the Father... "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."

There is no way to get around this, Spiritual Israelite. I don't say that to disparage you in any way. But there just is no way.

Calvinism says that God gives people faith and that people are not required to do anything of themselves in order to be saved.

Not at all, because right after saying faith and salvation are by the grace of God and thus gifts of God, he goes on to say that God created us in this way ~ we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus ~ for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Yes, we are then required to live as becomes followers of Christ, and to do good works; God's grace comes to us free initially, but certainly demands our responsibility; Paul says in Romans 12:1, "I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship." Yes, this is a great responsibility ~ but a labor of love on our part. Again, we Christians are "created in Christ Jesus for good works" (Ephesians 2:10).

Clearly, Paul and Silas were not Calvinists:

Acts 16:30 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Well, John Calvin, at that point, was still well over 1,000 years yet to be born... Again, yes, those who are appointed to eternal life (Acts 13:48) are at some point called by the Lord according to His purpose (Romans 8:28) and thus believe... because they are among Jesus's sheep, those given to Him by the Father.

How exactly can believers "work out their own salvation" in a Calvinist sense? What does that require?

Well, back to Romans 12:1 again; Paul says: "present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship." Serving the Lord in the form of good works is strongly implied there. And again, from Philippians 2:13 specifically, Paul exhorts us to "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God Who works in you, so that you will both will and work for His good pleasure."

Doesn't that imply that their will is involved in salvation and that they are partly responsible for their salvation (with God obviously doing the rest)? It sure does to me.

No, Salvation and glory and power belong to our God (Revelation 19:1). Again, this salvation ~ being among those to whom salvation is appointed and given, God's elect ~ "depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy," and "He has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills" (Romans 9:16-18).

In your doctrine the offer is not legitimate and sincere for the non-elect...

Not the case at all. God is certainly not guilty of illegitimacy or insincerity.

Why do you try to skate around this?

I do not, and would turn that around on you, asking you the very same question.

What is the reason that unbelievers are destined to hell? Is it not because God created them in such a way that they are destined to hell from birth?

As I said, we are all deserving of hell at from birth. Which I think you agreed with. But God... (Ephesians 2:4-10)...

How can you try to act as if you don't believe that people who end up in hell were not predestined to be there?

As I said above, the only predestination spoken of in God's Word by God is of those who are predestined to be conformed to the image Christ, to eternal life. Now, why did God choose to do this for some and not for others? Well, because God is the Potter (the Creator) and we are the clay (the created), and the Potter has every right over the clay to make some for honorable use and others for dishonorable use.

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

SIGH. :) Continued here...

What you believe is that God creates some people who never believe and end up in hell because He made them that way. You don't believe that they could choose to believe instead...

Well no, but I can't change your opinion. Only you can do that. Or... can you...? :) I think you can...

It really would make no sense for you to think any other way since you said you believe that people are either elect or non-elect from conception.

Well, they don't actually become elect until the actual electing... :) ...but they are or are not at least headed for election from conception, even before the foundation of the world...

God is love (1 John 4:8)...

Yes, He certainly is, but real love is not always... positive... does not always "feel good" to the receiver.

What have they done to deserve that? Babies can't sin. But, God sends some babies who die to hell? Why would He do that? Explain that to me.

Hmm, very interesting that you use that word 'deserve.' Now, you have previously agreed that we are not deserving of God's salvation at any point during our lives, remember, and in fact deserving of the opposite... resulting from the Fall and our resulting sinful nature from birth. And also, you ask, here, "what have they done...?" In speaking of God's elect and non-elect, Paul invokes Jacob (elect) and Esau (non-elect), and says, "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls ~ (Rebekah) was told, 'The older...' (Esau) '...will serve the younger (Jacob).”...(a)s it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'”

...all people have a legitimate opportunity to be saved (Titus 2:11).

Agreed. I have never said or intimated otherwise...

But your doctrine denies that.

Absolutely not.

Already covered this in the other post...

Yes, you keep raising the same objections, and misrepresenting things I have said, over and over again. And I then address the same things over and over and over again. It's tiresome, but you're worth it. :)

Are you purposely trying to misrepresent what I believe here?

Certainly not. But the implications of what you are saying are very evident. To me, at least...

Faith is not a work.

Very good; right. But you are inadvertently making it out to be. Like Jacobus Arminius, you are making faith out to be of man, in and of himself/herself, and thus his or her gift to God, his or her part in his or her own salvation, and the implication of that is contrary to what I pointed out before, that salvation is of the Lord. Salvation is not of the Lord and man, but only of the Lord.

Similarly, you are inadvertently making God's grace out to be something other than grace. As Paul says, "if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6).

He indicated they go hand in hand ("faith without works is dead") because after you put your faith in Christ, then you naturally, led by the Holy Spirit, will do the good works that God prepared for you to do.

This is exactly correct, and what I have said over and over and over again.

Are you not going to address my point? There is no basis for comparing a TEMPORARY punishment that has the goal of CORRECTION to an ETERNAL one that does not have the goal of correction, but rather of "ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" (Matthew 25:46)?

You are taking the analogy way too far, really. Humanly concepts always fall short of Godly ones in some way, but they are useful in pointing to and/or indicating the larger truths concerning God.

You are trying to tell me that God never stops loving the people He created purposely to spend ETERNITY in the lake of fire to experience ETERNAL PUNISHMENT.

Again, one being placed under punishment does not indicate lack of love from the one exacting punishment in any way.

That is the biggest pile of nonsense imaginable.

Again, you are welcome to your opinion.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I certainly disagree that Paul quoted from the book of Revelation. Not possible.

Me, too. I'm not sure who @bluedragon is attributing that to. And, John didn't quote Paul. There was no collaboration. :) However, some ~ many, actually ~ of the same truths of God are expounded upon by Paul and John... :)

Grace and peace to you both.