The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[marks]

There is a lot of scriptures about it and I do have them. But it is quite involved and there is a lot of scripture and jumping around to supporting scriptures

Some of these things are fairly simple.

For instance, 2 Thessalonians 2.

The timing statement is concerning the Day of Christ. They were being told it had come, that they were in it. So why be troubled, concerning their gathering? Only if they thought the gathering was to come first. Otherwise they are just being told they are about to be raptured, and why the worry?

The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24. Certainly no one present in that day would have thought of these as anything other than the chosen = Israel and the nations = all the other nations, the gentiles. Jesus prophesied the regathering of Israel to their promised land, just as the prophets in the OT all prophesied. This is not the rapture. If it were . . . who are the sheep in Matthew 25? They'd have already been gathered.

These are plainly stated passages with simple interpretations.

After Israel was dispersed, and centuries passed, no one considered that they would be a nation again, and found ways to interpret the Bible without Israel in the end times, but they were wrong, and won't let go of their error. So much has been invested in a "no Israel" scenario, now, even those who cannot deny an longer that Israel is still a nation before God, many cannot seem to let go of the errors in interpretation by those who did not believe.

I'm accused of being unable to let go of traditions, and that tradition began in the past 200 years. Perhaps the shoe is on the other foot, perhaps it's the traditions of the past 1000+ years that is holding too much sway.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I have no wish to make this personal.

You made it personal. I didn't start talking about you, you started talking about me. Like you do others. So I pointed it out to you, and suddenly we're off to the races.

It's not what I'm here for so forget it. I'm not playing any longer. If you want to make an argument that's NOT about my person, great, otherwise, I'm not interested.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Look Brother. You already said that you wont even take the time to consider anything except wat you have already chosen to believe.

You don't read well. I said that about that about your attempt to push the Jewish wedding as a model for a pre-trib rapture. That's not relevant to you supplying actual Bible Scripture to support your pre-trib rapture theory. Using the Jewish wedding is nothing but an analogy, not Scripture.

So what value is to be gained in even responding to you? You're not worth the effort with your arogant self. You dont have to believe me. Go embrace your arrogance and let the less arrogant people have a discussion.

Have a nice day!

Another pre-tribber cops out of showing actual Bible Scripture to support the pre-trib rapture theory of man.

Something pre-tribbers ought to know: even pre-trib rapture scholars have admitted that there is NO Bible Scripture that shows a pre-trib rapture.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Some of these things are fairly simple.

For instance, 2 Thessalonians 2.

The timing statement is concerning the Day of Christ. They were being told it had come, that they were in it. So why be troubled, concerning their gathering? Only if they thought the gathering was to come first. Otherwise they are just being told they are about to be raptured, and why the worry?

The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24. Certainly no one present in that day would have thought of these as anything other than the chosen = Israel and the nations = all the other nations, the gentiles. Jesus prophesied the regathering of Israel to their promised land, just as the prophets in the OT all prophesied. This is not the rapture. If it were . . . who are the sheep in Matthew 25? They'd have already been gathered.

So you're saying that the gathering of God's elect in the Olivet Discourse is not the Rapture? And others are to accept that because *you say so?* Where in the Bible are we told that the gathering of the elect of God is *not* the Rapture of the Church? This is pure Dispensationalism on steroids.

Of course the gathering of the elect in the Olivet Discourse is the Rapture! Do you think that Christians through the ages have seen it otherwise? Of course not! It's not been said (that I know of) in history prior to 1830 that the gathering of the elect is not the Rapture except perhaps in the most obscure places.

Of course the gathering of the elect in the Olivet Discourse is the Rapture! You'd have to be taught by Dispensationalists to believe otherwise! The Sheep and the Goats story in Matt 25 has nothing at all to do with it. Any imagined contradiction is being imagined--no contradiction exists or it could actually be articulated. And it isn't.

These are plainly stated passages with simple interpretations.

After Israel was dispersed, and centuries passed, no one considered that they would be a nation again, and found ways to interpret the Bible without Israel in the end times, but they were wrong, and won't let go of their error. So much has been invested in a "no Israel" scenario, now, even those who cannot deny an longer that Israel is still a nation before God, many cannot seem to let go of the errors in interpretation by those who did not believe.

I'm accused of being unable to let go of traditions, and that tradition began in the past 200 years. Perhaps the shoe is on the other foot, perhaps it's the traditions of the past 1000+ years that is holding too much sway.

I appreciate the effort in Dispensationalism to restore Futurism and the Destiny of Israel. The tradition of Pretribulationism has no basis in Scriptures whatsoever. That is where you're stuck.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You made it personal. I didn't start talking about you, you started talking about me. Like you do others. So I pointed it out to you, and suddenly we're off to the races.

It's not what I'm here for so forget it. I'm not playing any longer. If you want to make an argument that's NOT about my person, great, otherwise, I'm not interested.

Much love!

Pure copout. I've asked you from the start to focus on the points, but you insist on making it about my style. You make it personal to avoid the subject. Be happy with it, and sleep well. I will.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Never said that.


I referred to what Yeshua said on Matthew and Mark.

It's all on record. If you have more to add, then say it. Simple denials do not cut it. Propaganda without Scripture basis is just that--propaganda. Pretrib is being promoted without Scriptural proof. And those who make doctrines their idol get mad. So be it. Here is the part that Mark is ignoring:

But absolutely, we are told *doctrinally* that Antichrist comes not *before* the rise of Antichrist, but *after* the revelation of Antichrist, specifically *at* the destruction of Antichrist.

2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
....8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Mark falsely claimed that there is no explicit teaching in Scriptures regarding the fact Christ's Return must take place *after* the reign of Antichrist. Sadly, he completely ignored this! Mark said this:

"There is no explicit statement of rapture timing period."

Clearly, that is not true. If he wishes to explain how the above passage does *not* teach something must happen before Christ comes for his Church, he's welcome to try.

 

[MA2444]

You can post ten of them and he will keep trolling you.
Post a few and watch him say " show me with the bible".
He is strictly here to wear you and me out.
Troll

Hmmm, I do have thise notes handy, lol. Ok I'll do it.

You see this so called rapture debate that is so vehemently talked down against has been going on for a long time, because the enemy knows the destruction it will cause to His kingdom and lies when more and more people realize the real truth. So the evil spirits go around making trolls, and it's easy to spot trolls now. They pick a certain subject to talk down on and wont leave it alone. So in light of this debate I have been able to make a list of specific rapture verses and specific 2nd Coming verses.

How about those PreTrib Rapture verses first shall we?

Rapture verses, But Don't Believe Me! Check them for yourself and you can see.

John 14: 1-3
1 Corinthians 15:1-53
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Corinthians 1:7-8
1 Corinthians 15:21-23
Phillipians 3:20-21
Romans 8:19
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10
1 Thessalonians 2:19
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, 23
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Timothy 6:14
Hebrews 9:28
James 5:7-9
1 Peter 1:7, 13
1 John 2:28
1 John 3:2
Jude 21
Revelation 2:-25
Revelation 3:10

I may even have a few others that didnt make it on this list, but I'm trying. So ok now! Here is your sriptural proof of a pretrib rapture, straight from the Book of Truth, the Bible. And again, But don't Believe me! Go read these for yourself and prayerfully meditate upon them and ask the Holy Spirit for help understanding it and you'll have half the game over right there. I challenge you Davey to read these for yourself. You have not swayed my faith in this, nor can you because I know the truth in the very core of my being now because the Lord God got tired of hearing me beg for wisdom and understanding and so gave it to me....and a lot more because that's who He is! But I can't get your wisdom and understanding for you, you must do that for yourself, and if all you do is do a drive by snarky comment in response without addressing the material as I have laid out....you will look like a fool to the world so...time to go do your Homework!

Scripture does say that God gives liberally to all those who ask for wisdom, just sayin'

 

[marks]

Hmmm, I do have thise notes handy, lol. Ok I'll do it.

You see this so called rapture debate that is so vehemently talked down against has been going on for a long time, because the enemy knows the destruction it will cause to His kingdom and lies when more and more people realize the real truth. So the evil spirits go around making trolls, and it's easy to spot trolls now. They pick a certain subject to talk down on and wont leave it alone. So in light of this debate I have been able to make a list of specific rapture verses and specific 2nd Coming verses.

How about those PreTrib Rapture verses first shall we?

Rapture verses, But Don't Believe Me! Check them for yourself and you can see.

John 14: 1-3
1 Corinthians 15:1-53
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Corinthians 1:7-8
1 Corinthians 15:21-23
Phillipians 3:20-21
Romans 8:19
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10
1 Thessalonians 2:19
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, 23
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Timothy 6:14
Hebrews 9:28
James 5:7-9
1 Peter 1:7, 13
1 John 2:28
1 John 3:2
Jude 21
Revelation 2:-25
Revelation 3:10

I may even have a few others that didnt make it on this list, but I'm trying. So ok now! Here is your sriptural proof of a pretrib rapture, straight from the Book of Truth, the Bible. And again, But don't Believe me! Go read these for yourself and prayerfully meditate upon them and ask the Holy Spirit for help understanding it and you'll have half the game over right there. I challenge you Davey to read these for yourself. You have not swayed my faith in this, nor can you because I know the truth in the very core of my being now because the Lord God got tired of hearing me beg for wisdom and understanding and so gave it to me....and a lot more because that's who He is! But I can't get your wisdom and understanding for you, you must do that for yourself, and if all you do is do a drive by snarky comment in response without addressing the material as I have laid out....you will look like a fool to the world so...time to go do your Homework!

Scripture does say that God gives liberally to all those who ask for wisdom, just sayin'

Here's another passage which supports pre trib.

Revelation 7:2-4 KJV
2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

"the servants of God" is an inclusive term, therefore, the only servants of God on earth at this time are all Israelites, and there are only 144,000 of them.

What happened to the church? Where did it go?

Scripture does say that God gives liberally to all those who ask for wisdom, just sayin'

Another thing is, we must be willing to be subject to Scripture, so that when we find we aren't in line with the text, that we are willing to change our view.

Much love!

 

[BlessedPeace]

It's all on record. If you have more to add, then say it.

I did say it. You put words in my mouth in your response to my original statement. Which is intellectually dishonest.

That explains your aggressive defense in this current quoted post attributed to you.

"Propaganda" and "idol", are inappropriate and are intended as diversions.

When you are unable to address a post without becoming aggressive because it is implied you may be in error,you may want to take a look at yourself and ask what scares you when you're confronted with a different perspective.

Simple denials do not cut it. Propaganda without Scripture basis is just that--propaganda. Pretrib is being promoted without Scriptural proof. And those who make doctrines their idol get mad. So be it. Here is the part that Mark is ignoring:

But absolutely, we are told *doctrinally* that Antichrist comes not *before* the rise of Antichrist, but *after* the revelation of Antichrist, specifically *at* the destruction of Antichrist.

2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
....8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Mark falsely claimed that there is no explicit teaching in Scriptures regarding the fact Christ's Return must take place *after* the reign of Antichrist. Sadly, he completely ignored this!

 

[marks]

You make it personal to avoid the subject.

Do you see here, how you are judging my motives? Falsely, I might add. Though "mounting a self defense" has no appeal to me either.

Don't you see? I'm here for the very purpose of discussing these things.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Every rapture verse is peacetime Commerce and normal life.
There is no other position except the pre-trib rapture that fits.

My problem with this is, What do the Scriptures teach about the Rapture, and not "what fits." But I don't at all see "every rapture verse" as "peacetime." You claim this as if you're saying it is sufficient proof. There is plenty of evidence the Rapture is not peacetime at all!

2 Thes 1.6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

So what you're really doing is selecting what particular verses you wish to be the exclusive set of verses you wish to call "Rapture verses." And you select "peacetime" verses so that you can claim "all" these verses are purely "peacetime." It really expresses bias more than a comprehensive treatment of the subject. There are many challenges to such careful editing.

We see in the "one taken one left", every one of those examples is peace time, normal life, and commerce.

That is, I believe, a misinterpretation of the "one taken one left." Both "taken" and "left" are under judgment via the Romans. Those "left" were left alive to till the fields for the Romans. Those "taken" were either killed or taken away into slavery in exile. This was not the "Rapture," but rather, the Judgment of Israel. Just as the Flood "took away" the wicked, so the Romans "took away" the ungodly and rebellious in Israel.

Jesus promised that when he returns he will rescue his elect, who stood fast even under the persecution of Jews who hated Christianity.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I did say it. You put words in my mouth in your response to my original statement. Which is intellectually dishonest.

I'm not sure what you're talking about? Again, it's on record. Go back and read it if you like--nothing "intellectually dishonest" about it. If you wish to argue a point, make it.

That explains your aggressive defense in this current quoted post attributed to you.

"Propaganda" and "idol", are inappropriate and are intended as diversions.

Propaganda is information gas-lighted as if it doesn't need to be substantiated with anything authoritative. That's what Pretrib is--it's claiming a Pretrib Rapture exists when it isn't even there in Scriptures!

So what do its advocates do? They just "say it" and don't wish to argue the points at all--just condemn any other view or claim no argument has been made, legitimately, to the contrary.

That's false. I made a perfectly good argument, which was then simply discarded as if it never happened. And it is still being ignored, preference being made for arguing over what?

 

[Randy Kluth]

How about those PreTrib Rapture verses first shall we?

Rapture verses, But Don't Believe Me! Check them for yourself and you can see.

John 14: 1-3
1 Corinthians 15:1-53
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Corinthians 1:7-8
1 Corinthians 15:21-23
Phillipians 3:20-21
Romans 8:19
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10
1 Thessalonians 2:19
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, 23
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Timothy 6:14
Hebrews 9:28
James 5:7-9
1 Peter 1:7, 13
1 John 2:28
1 John 3:2
Jude 21
Revelation 2:-25
Revelation 3:10

These are Pretrib Rapture verses? ;)
What is conspicuously absent are any arguments whatsoever! They are simply ignored.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Do you see here, how you are judging my motives? Falsely, I might add. Though "mounting a self defense" has no appeal to me either.

Don't you see? I'm here for the very purpose of discussing these things.

Much love!

Then discuss these things, if that's what you're here to do. You completely dismissed my argument that 2 Thes 2 explicitly teaches Christ comes for his Church *after* the revelation of Antichrist and *at* the destruction of Antichrist.

You then said there is no explicit teaching in this regard. How is that "discussing these things?"

 

[marks]

my argument that 2 Thes 2 explicitly teaches Christ comes for his Church *after* the revelation of Antichrist and *at* the destruction of Antichrist.

The timing statement is concerning the Day of Christ. They were being told it had come, that they were in it. So why be troubled, concerning their gathering? Only if they thought the gathering was to come first. Otherwise they are just being told they are about to be raptured, and why the worry?

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Here's another passage which supports pre trib.

Revelation 7:2-4 KJV
2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

"the servants of God" is an inclusive term, therefore, the only servants of God on earth at this time are all Israelites, and there are only 144,000 of them.

What happened to the church? Where did it go?

Again, you are deriving an eschatology out of prophetic visions or symbolism that you wish to frame any way you like, based on your preconceived pretribulational presuppositions. The passage is a prolepsis, showing a multitude from all nations coming out of the tribulation of the entire age at the Return of Christ.

Christ comes on the last day of this present age. But the vision shows how God is protecting His promises made to Abraham concerning Israel. It is focused on Israel, and then adds the part about the Great Multitude from all nations. And that's because God's promises to Abraham concerned not just Israel but also many nations.

And so, all nations are covered in this prophecy. Nothing is excluding the international Church from going through the same time period as the 144,000. Only a pretribulational presupposition would see it otherwise.

 

[Davy]

It would not matter.
You have ZERO VERSES pointing to a postrib rapture.
ZERO

And if I post all the pretrib rapture verses, it would be like doing it to a telephone pole.
You are hopelessly mired in false doctrine.

There is no Bible Scripture support for a pre-trib rapture theory, and that... is why you refuse the challenge to show Bible Scripture to support it.

At least you didn't do the cop out that others here have done by my challenge, with just posting their slogans and opinions and absolutely NO Bible Scripture that supports the false pre-trib rapture.

 

[MA2444]

All end times is looked at by heaven through the bride/groom prism.
The gathering of the bride.
The ones betrothed to their groom.
The ones with oil.
The ones intimate.
Amazing how half the church casts this down.
They have no interest in the groom.
Their focus is on the coming of the AC and suffering.
Hmmmm..now that is interesting. Because half the church is left behind as the Bible teaches

This is a real good point. No man gets to the Father without going through Jesus.
So how do we get Jesus? int, it's not by a sinners parayer, lol. That's merely a introduction.
We get to Jesus through the work of the Holy Spirit.
How do we get the Holy Spirit? By reading the word of God, the Bible.

Having oil is having the Holy Spirit. Are you on a first name basis with Him? Are you led by the Spirit like is said in scripture? It's a real easy formula on paper. Praying + Reading= Doing what it says to do + being led by the Spirit = Relationship with Him. It's inevitable.

John 14:21-26
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.../KJV


See, Jesus laid it all out in John 14. If you do it like Jesus says to do then He will manifest Himself to you, and when He chooses to do that...There is no mistake. I say again, there is No Mistake. Now Jesus has never manifested for me yet so that my eyes could see Him, but He has manifested Himself to me in other ways that are unmastakeable. That one time that He walked into my room and spoke audibly to me, I knew who it was before He even spoke and perhaps even odder than that was when He did speak, I instantly recognized His voice! That was a little spooky to me and I thought, well maybe we knew each other before I was in the womb?! (We got born with Amnesia dangit!)

But the point is, when Jesus walks into the room...nobody dont know who it is! The entire atmosphere of the room changed and filled with power. I could feel it. So I suppose I am on my way to not being one that He will be forced to say, I never knew you, to me. He walked right in on me, He knew who I was, lol! He told me to pray for a certain Brother in Christ to get help he needs help right now....
And...(shaking my head in shame) I messed up. I began questioning the Lord! (Idiot!) I said, why? WHat happened? is He ok?

And the Merciful Lord did not rebuke me directly for that...but He repeated Himself but with that special parental tone of doom that us parents use on our kids when we want to send the nessage, Do it or you in Big Trouble Mister! That tone. It struck terror in me I tell you! He said, he needs help now, pray for him now...(in that tone) and I learned a very valuable lesson at that moment and I said Yes Lord, and immediately went into prayer for the man while Jesus stood there and listened to me and when I said my Amen, the presence of the Lord went away and I was left sitting there all alone wondering what happened to my friend? And I started thinking about how Zachiriah got struck dumb in the temple for talking back. Anytime the Lord would come to you and audibly speak to you, and tell you what to do, the only correct answer is, Yes Lord.

He could have struck me dumb in an instant like He did to Zachariiah. He didnt even need me to be able to help that man! He was extending me a privlege and oppurtunity to particiapte and help! And I almost blew it!

The man did get help I found out later, but that's whollee nother Testimony! A good one too. Yes Lord, that is the answer. Geez if Jesus came to me and asked me to do something audibly, then time was prolly of the essence and ol' Ed wanted to chit chat, Doh! Yes Lord. I think He did that audibly that way because I had not learned to hear His voice yet. So He came closer and spoke louder! Praise the Lord He was so good to me while I was being insolent.







So after you are introduced to

 

[Randy Kluth]

my argument that 2 Thes 2 explicitly teaches Christ comes for his Church *after* the revelation of Antichrist and *at* the destruction of Antichrist.

The timing statement is concerning the Day of Christ. They were being told it had come, that they were in it. So why be troubled, concerning their gathering? Only if they thought the gathering was to come first. Otherwise they are just being told they are about to be raptured, and why the worry?

Mark, please don't post your messages like the above. When I reply the quoted parts won't come through and I have difficulty responding to them. Perhaps you can do this some other way?

I appreciate you're making an argument here, as opposed to dismissing what I say as if it hadn't been said! I respect that.

Yes, I do know this argument. For me it is convoluted, but I understand that is what you believe.

So we can argue but believe differently--that's okay. You seem to define the "Day of the Lord" as a period of Tribulation, as if the Church thought the "Day of the Lord" was the "reign of Antichrist" that if they were in it they had missed the Rapture?

The "worry" for me is what Jesus said about "false Christs" and "false prophets" coming to deceive. Christians were teaching that some kind of eschatological move was already underway, and that some form of the Kingdom of Christ was already being established.

Jesus warned about this because it was a deception. They were not to believe in any so-called "Kingdom Movement" until Christ actually descended from heaven. That was the true sign--a descent *from heaven!*

Thanks for sharing. I do wish to get into a "kinder" kind of discussion. But every day is different, and we will approach things differently based on how we feel on a given day.

 

[BlessedPeace]

I'm not sure what you're talking about? Again, it's on record. Go back and read it if you like--nothing "intellectually dishonest" about it. If you wish to argue a point, make it.

Propaganda is information gas-lighted as if it doesn't need to be substantiated with anything authoritative. That's what Pretrib is--it's claiming a Pretrib Rapture exists when it isn't even there in Scriptures!

So what do its advocates do? They just "say it" and don't wish to argue the points at all--just condemn any other view or claim no argument has been made, legitimately, to the contrary.

That's false. I made a perfectly good argument, which was then simply discarded as if it never happened. And it is still being ignored, preference being made for arguing over what?

No,you made an argument that is accusatory against those who inject Scriptural evidence you refuse to consider.

Claiming information you don't concur with is propaganda and idolatry, is an appeal to emotion and is a personal attack upon those you're responding to using such language.


The Scriptures do not require you to agree with them,nor approve their message, for those Scriptures to be valid.

There is evidence of a pre tribulation rapture in God's words.
If you knew what the Great Tribulation entails,you would realize why God's Elect would not suffer so.

God saves us from our sins,and all that means in eternity,yet doesn't save us from the Hell on Earth that shall be the Great Tribulation?

The lengths you go to to rebut information those opposed to your perspective insert is indicative of entrenched thinking. You shall never be persuaded to see the Rapture referred to in God's words.

This thread is your hammer to drive in that nail that is your assertion, no Pretrib Rapture.
Labeling the truth propaganda,idol,etc...does not prove that be true.

And your insisting we prove it with scripture, when scripture speaks before this thread was published that it is, is enough.

We walk in faith. You have faith there is no Rapture to come.

Keep the faith.