Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

[Timtofly]

That blatantly contradicts what Paul taught.

Not really. Just your opinion and interpretation. Paul would contradict 2 Corinthians 5:1 per your opinion and interpretation.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no scripture which teaches that someone can't be conscious without a body. None. Revelation 6:9-11 talks about John seeing the souls of dead people and they are conscious. It doesn't say they have bodies. If they did, why would John say he saw their souls? That would be ridiculous.

Which is symbolism? Souls under the alter, or people waiving palm branches with their hands?

"I saw under the altar the souls of them"

Or

"stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

You are symbolically a soul under the altar, as that means you have the second birth.

Do you not think they have been serving God day and night since the Cross? How do they serve God in that heavenly temple without a body?

"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

Has the Lamb not been in Paradise with them since He ascended into heaven 1994 years ago? Have not millions from the OT, and millions from the NT left the bondage of death and sin for eternal life? Have many of them suffered because of their faith and trust in God? Since the Cross, the church has suffered great tribulation, and that stops when the church is removed at the Second Coming. The 5th Seal declares the glorification of the entire church as one. Paul says that is when the rapture and Second Coming happen, when all are glorified as one. Which is symbolized in the 5th Seal.

 

[Timtofly]

Without showing how it had anything to do with the rapture. Just quoting the scripture without saying anything about where it supposedly referenced the rapture is pointless. It said nothing about the rapture. If you think it did then you need to show how.

I gave you the context of the "first shall be last and the last shall be first" You called that Scripture gibberish as if I had to quote the whole chapter. Now it is pointless, as you cannot even prove I was wrong. You have offered no reason to state otherwise that the Second Coming, and the rapture, is when the first shall be last and the last shall be first. Nor have you even stated anything of substance to the contrary that the regeneration is talking about the Second Coming and the rapture.

The rapture and the Second Coming happen at the same time.

Jesus came to His own first and they did not receive Him. The Gospel went out to the whole world last and many have received Jesus. At the Second Coming this last group, the church is removed first. Then Jesus turns once again to His own people to remove their sins, as their King sitting in Judgment.

Romans 11:26

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

This is the regeneration per:

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory."

When does this happen? At the Second Coming.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

When is the rapture? At the Second Coming.

The church is removed first. Then Israel who received the Gospel first, but rejected it, is redeemed last, but only a remnant. But all of that remnant will be removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and placed into God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

There will be no more sin at that point. These points will all be brought to completion because it is the regeneration:

"finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

This is when time is called, after the process of Jesus sitting in Judgment is complete.

"that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished."

Time is not up at the 5th and 6th Seal, when the rapture and Second Coming happen before the 7th Seal is even opened. Time is up after the first 6 Trumpets and after the 7 Thunders. And it is during the Trumpets that is the period in question, called Jacob's trouble, that you all claim has to happen prior to the 5th and 6th Seals.

The last ones of the church are removed first. The first of Israel are standing in judgment and removed from the earth last. It is Jacob's trouble, because the majority will be tossed into the LOF, after hearing their sentencing directly from their King and Messiah, whom they rejected, or they would have been taken away with the church.

People deny that Jesus is on earth at the Second Coming. Because they want Jacob's trouble to be years before the Second Coming. They deem post everything is the safe interpretation to put their trust in.

The phrase about the first being last and the last being first is about the church being removed in the rapture prior to Jacob's trouble, because Jacob is removed last after the church, not before the church. And Jacob is definitely not removed multiple years before the church is raptured.

 

[David in NJ]

Are you willfully ignorant that those in Paradise are not dead, as you say in dead flesh?

Does Jesus have a physical body or not? If Jesus is allowed in Paradise with a physical body, why do not the rest of those in Christ?

Tell me what you misunderstand about 2 Corinthians 5:1?

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Is the tabernacle mentioned Adam's dead corruptible flesh? Is the house of God a building as opposed to the earthly tent, a different physical body? One that is allowed in Paradise, that is not corruptible? Which body does Jesus have? One of corruption from Adam, or one of incorruption from His Father, God?

Are you dead in Adam's flesh, or alive in God's permanent incorruptible physical body? Do you need a first resurrection out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh?

Can you explain to me what happened at the Cross? Up until the Cross, a soul had to wait in the valley of the shadow of death, Jesus called Abraham's bosom. There seemingly are no physical bodies down in sheol, the angels would be spirits of flaming fire, chained in darkness. Whatever a soul looks like one's mind may still feel all the senses and can see each other, no? But Jesus said on the Cross, it is finished.

Now tell me, does your verse say a soul cannot enter heaven? Why were they as souls waiting in death until the Cross, why could not a soul enter as you don't seem to claim a soul is a physical body? Now, if a soul can enter heaven, why can that soul not have God's permanent incorruptible physical body? Did Paul say this:

"For we know that when the Second Coming happens, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Or this:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

They could not take their flesh and blood to sheol either. Paul is not contradicting himself. You cannot take the tabernacle of this earthly house to heaven, but God has a permanent incorruptible physical body waiting for the soul to enter, and you cannot prevent that from happening when a person dies, not even with theology. They have been experiencing the first resurrection since the Cross. All shall be changed, but Paul said those on earth need the change, not those in Paradise.

Does Jesus have a physical body or not? If Jesus is allowed in Paradise with a physical body, why do not the rest of those in Christ?

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Do not be ignorant of the Truth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I gave you the context of the "first shall be last and the last shall be first" You called that Scripture gibberish as if I had to quote the whole chapter.

Will you stop lying already? I absolutely did not call the scripture itself gibberish and you know it. I would never do that. No one here would ever do that. I'm calling your interpretation of that scripture gibberish. And you know that. But, here you are lying as if I called the scripture itself gibberish. Do you have no conscience about lying?

 

[Timtofly]

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Do not be ignorant of the Truth.

Christ the firstfruits

You left out all the OT redeemed resurrected out of their tombs per Matthew 27. Firstfruits is plural, not Christ the firstfruit.

3 parts to the order:

The Cross

The Second Coming

The end of the Day of the Lord when Jesus hands creation back to God.

There was only one general resurrection at the Cross. It is a rapture at the Second Coming. And all creation is handed to God for God to be all in all, to make way for the NHNE.

There have been millions of resurrections as each soul entered Paradise into that eternal life, since the Cross. No one tasted death after the Cross who experienced the second birth. The first resurrection was granted upon entering Paradise, each and every time.

 

[Timtofly]

Will you stop lying already? I absolutely did not call the scripture itself gibberish and you know it. I would never do that. No one here would ever do that. I'm calling your interpretation of that scripture gibberish. And you know that. But, here you are lying as if I called the scripture itself gibberish. Do you have no conscience about lying?

There was no interpretation in that post you called gibberish. I asked the poster 2 questions. Questions are not interpretations.

 

[Davy]

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

They could not take their flesh and blood to sheol either. Paul is not contradicting himself. You cannot take the tabernacle of this earthly house to heaven, but God has a permanent incorruptible physical body waiting for the soul to enter, and you cannot prevent that from happening when a person dies, not even with theology. They have been experiencing the first resurrection since the Cross. All shall be changed, but Paul said those on earth need the change, not those in Paradise.

News flash: we already have that other body attached to and dwelling in our flesh body. In 1 Cor.5 Apostle Paul was speaking in the Present Tense about our other body from Heaven. At death of our flesh body our "spiritual body" merely steps out of our flesh and goes back to God, i.e., revealed in the Heavenly.

 

[David in NJ]

Christ the firstfruits

You left out all the OT redeemed resurrected out of their tombs per Matthew 27. Firstfruits is plural, not Christ the firstfruit.

3 parts to the order:

The Cross

The Second Coming

The end of the Day of the Lord when Jesus hands creation back to God.

There was only one general resurrection at the Cross. It is a rapture at the Second Coming. And all creation is handed to God for God to be all in all, to make way for the NHNE.

There have been millions of resurrections as each soul entered Paradise into that eternal life, since the Cross. No one tasted death after the Cross who experienced the second birth. The first resurrection was granted upon entering Paradise, each and every time.

Return to Truth

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

[Timtofly]

News flash: we already have that other body attached to and dwelling in our flesh body. In 1 Cor.5 Apostle Paul was speaking in the Present Tense about our other body from Heaven. At death of our flesh body our "spiritual body" merely steps out of our flesh and goes back to God, i.e., revealed in the Heavenly.

So, Jesus stepped out of His earthly body, with a spiritual body that was then placed in a tomb? Then the spiritual body later ascended to heaven?

 

[Timtofly]

Return to Truth

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

At the Second Coming, the only ones left in Christ are those alive on the earth.

3 different events.

The Cross.

The Second Coming.

The end of the Day of the Lord.

Paul said order, not a single one time event.

"Each one in his own order".

 

[David in NJ]

So, Jesus stepped out of His earthly body, with a spiritual body that was then placed in a tomb? Then the spiritual body later ascended to heaven?

JESUS physical body experienced physical death on the Cross for our sins.
Only that physical body was laid in the Tomb.
The WORD that became flesh removed Himself from that physical body while on the Cross.

The 3rd Day that physical body was Resurrected and indwelt by the WORD that was God from the Beginning.

 

[Hobie]

Actually, Futurists like myself generally believe that a literal Antichrist is coming, just like Antiochus 4 came, just like Roman Caesars came, just like Hitler came, etc. Every kingdom has a king, and Antichrist will be a emperor. He will have a following of 10 nations and 7 kings/presidents. This superpower will remain unchallenged for 3.5 years, during which time he will try to stamp out evangelical, catholic, and orthodox Christianity.

But at the end of that period I suspect Eastern leaders will not like submitting to a European Antichrist and will challenge him at Armageddon. I don't really know if this is the scenario, but it may be.

What I don't believe is the Dispensationalist and Jewish view that a new temple will be constructed in Jerusalem to restore animal sacrifices, or to be a palace for a Messiah figure. I just don't think that's what most Jews or Christians believe. 2 Thes 2 doesn't say there will be a rebuilt temple of the Law, nor do anything but ultra-orthodox Jews believe there will be a temple of the Law restored. I really don't know all this, but I really think the NT Scriptures indicate the Law is gone, for both Christians and Jews. Jesus said a time would come when people would no longer worship in Jerusalem but anywhere. That day arrived 2000 plus years ago.

I don't know what kind of temple Antichrist will step into, but I personally think it will be a claim to Deity, assuming a posture as if he is on a heavenly throne. God's true temple is in heaven, and Antichrist will, on earth, claim to have heaven's authority. Anyway, that's the best I can do.

Yes, but that's not what the Bible tells us, need to study what says, not what someone told you..

 

[Davy]

So, Jesus stepped out of His earthly body, with a spiritual body that was then placed in a tomb? Then the spiritual body later ascended to heaven?

Jesus' death and resurrection is different than for us.

Matt 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

Per 1 Peter 3, Jesus at His resurrection went and preached The Gospel to the "spirits in prison". Peter showed something else there too...

1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


Flesh... cannot enter into the Heavenly, simply because flesh is not Spirit. Apostle Paul even showed that in 1 Corinthians 15:50. Jesus at His resurrection, in His Spirit went to those "spirits in prison" which were those who had died prior. When His flesh was raised, at some point it was "quickened" to a spiritual body, and even retained the marks of His crucifixion. Our resurrection won't happen that way, but our spiritual body will suddenly be revealed in the heavenly when our flesh dies, as per 2 Cor.5.

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

It was Old Testament prophecy that Jesus would free the prisoners at Satan's pit prison, and lead them out, per Isaiah 42:7.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, but that's not what the Bible tells us, need to study what says, not what someone told you..

i guess you have not read the entirety of Scripture!

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
1 John 2: 6+6+6

 

[Timtofly]

JESUS physical body experienced physical death on the Cross for our sins.
Only that physical body was laid in the Tomb.
The WORD that became flesh removed Himself from that physical body while on the Cross.

The 3rd Day that physical body was Resurrected and indwelt by the WORD that was God from the Beginning.

The only reason why the soul departed was to enter Abraham's bosom and set the captives free. Not to mention it was instantaneous. They were all in physical bodies coming out of their graves, the instant Jesus said it was finished and set them free. Then that soul waited in the physical body in the tomb, until the third day.

 

[Timtofly]

Flesh... cannot enter into the Heavenly, simply because flesh is not Spirit. Apostle Paul even showed that in 1 Corinthians 15:50. Jesus at His resurrection, in His Spirit went to those "spirits in prison" which were those who had died prior. When His flesh was raised, at some point it was "quickened" to a spiritual body, and even retained the marks of His crucifixion. Our resurrection won't happen that way, but our spiritual body will suddenly be revealed in the heavenly when our flesh dies, as per 2 Cor.5.

Flesh did enter Paradise. Enoch entered. Moses entered. Elijah entered. John entered, and Jesus entered all having a physical body. Adam's dead corruptible flesh cannot enter, not that a physical body is forbidden.

Jesus ascended bodily and physically into heaven. What happened those 3 days has nothing to do with not being able to have a physical body in Paradise, where the physical tree of life is.

We are both physical and spiritual beings at the same time. Not one or the other.

The "flesh" that cannot enter is corruptible flesh. But incorruptible flesh if you want to use that term, instead of a physical body can most certainly enter heaven and physically enjoy Paradise, because God's physical body given to the redeemed is incorruptible, not corruptible.

Spiritual does not mean non-physical. Spiritual means of God, and for His Glory.

 

[Davy]

Flesh did enter Paradise. Enoch entered. Moses entered. Elijah entered. John entered, and Jesus entered all having a physical body. Adam's dead corruptible flesh cannot enter, not that a physical body is forbidden.

Nope.
Don't you recall when Jesus was transfigured during His Ministry, and Peter saw Him speaking with Moses and Elijah? (Matt.17) And Moses did die, but God buried the body of Moses (see Jude 9).

Jesus ascended bodily and physically into heaven. What happened those 3 days has nothing to do with not being able to have a physical body in Paradise, where the physical tree of life is.

The resurrection is not about the raising of our flesh. Those miracles Jesus did during His Ministry. The 1 Peter 3 Scripture showed that Jesus' flesh body was transfigured to a heavenly type body. 1 Cor.15 also testifies:

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

We are both physical and spiritual beings at the same time. Not one or the other.

Your flesh is not the soul, nor your spirit. And Jesus made it plain in John 3:6 that flesh and Spirit are two separate and distinct operations.

Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
KJV

God made us with 3 parts -- our soul, our spirit, and our flesh body ("joints and marrow"). Per Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, when our flesh dies, it goes back to the earthly material elements where it came from. But the spirit goes back to God Who gave it. The soul and spirit are attached together, and leave the flesh body at flesh death.

That is the reason why Rev.20 shows there is such a thing as the "second death" of being cast into the future "lake of fire". That casting is about one's spirit with soul being destroyed in that future "lake of fire".

The "flesh" that cannot enter is corruptible flesh. But incorruptible flesh if you want to use that term, instead of a physical body can most certainly enter heaven and physically enjoy Paradise, because God's physical body given to the redeemed is incorruptible, not corruptible.

Spiritual does not mean non-physical. Spiritual means of God, and for His Glory.

You only show your continued confusion about the flesh vs. Spirit. At the resurrection, it is NOT our flesh that is raised. That idea is from old Jewish tradition, and does not align with God's Word.

 

[Timtofly]

You only show your continued confusion about the flesh vs. Spirit. At the resurrection, it is NOT our flesh that is raised. That idea is from old Jewish tradition, and does not align with God's Word.

I never said it was, and you keep putting thoughts into my post that are not even there. I said there is a difference between the soul, spirit, and body, but we have all 3 parts not one or the other. The body is always physical. One from Adam of death. The other from God, eternal life. Both are physical, because they touched Jesus' physical body, and saw the wounds from His death on the Cross. The spirit is spirit, not a physical body. We will still have a physical body that puts on the spirit like Jesus did on the mount of Transfiguration.

But all currently in Paradise have that building, a physical body, that is from God, eternal in the heavens. We will always be a soul in a physical body in a spirit, so always soul, body, and spirit. The spirit is not a body we put on. The spirit is a bright light than shines as the stars. Jesus shown like the sun when He showed Peter, James, and John what the spirit looked like.

The body that is put into the ground returns to dust, and will never be brought back to life. God has had available and has given His physical body for all the redeemed since the Cross. Moses and Elijah had that body from the time they left the earth, and have been in Paradise for thousands of years, before the Cross.

 

[Davy]

I never said it was, and you keep putting thoughts into my post that are not even there.

Maybe you ought to back up and read what you've said, that flesh entered Paradise with Enoch, and Elijah. If you had understood Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 you would have known flesh and blood cannot enter into the Heavenly. This is why Christ's Apostles saw Jesus' flesh body being 'transfigured' when the spirit bodies of Moses and Elijah appeared talking with Jesus...

Matt 17:1-4
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and His face did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here: if Thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for Thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."
KJV