False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[The Light]

This doesn't refute my claim at all. It supports it. Who is Paul including among the elect here? Only believing Israelites. The rest (unbelieving Israelites) were blinded and not elect. But, if you actually understood what is taught in the New Testament overall then you would understand that Gentile believers are also among the elect.

Paul called himself "the apostle of the Gentiles" (Romans 11:13).

This is what he said regarding the ones he ministered to:

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Since he was "the apostle of the Gentiles" that means he endured hardship for their sake and he included them among the elect.

Here is Paul addressing Gentile believers in Colossae:

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Here is Paul addressing Gentile believers in the church of the Thessalonians:

1 Thessalonians 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Here is Peter referring to those in the church at Babylon as elect:

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

So, explain to me how you supposedly refuted my claim?

You fail to recognize what is going to come to pass. Be not ignorant of this.
Romans 11

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Total nonsense. You have a doctrine all to yourself. It's so convoluted that no one can understand it except you.

I'm not the one running around following the doctrine of unbelieving men that thought that God would not restore the nation of Israel. I am also not the one thinking that the 70th week of Daniel is about the Gentile Church. Additionally, I don't have the Church going through the wrath of God.

When did I ever say He's not coming for His church? Never. Why do you lie like this? Do you have any conscience about that? Do you not believe that lying is a sin? Of course He is coming for His church. We all believe that. We just disagree on the timing of it in relation to the tribulation.

You are quick to accuse the brethren. Constantly.

Scripture teaches that He is coming both with and for His church at the same time (1 Thess 4:14-17, Mark 13:24-27). Those coming with Him at that time are the souls of the dead in Christ. Those He is coming for are those who are alive and remain. And the dead in Christ as well in terms of raising their bodies from the dead.

So you think. The foolish virgins will be wondering why they were not looking for the Lord in an hour that they think not. Unto them that look for Him will he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. The door will be shut and many will get their wish.

Try interpreting scripture without doctrinal bias once and see where it leads.

I let scripture interpret itself. When the scripture says there are 144,000 fruits from the 12 tribes, that's what it means. This is not the Church. So who interprets scriptural with doctrinal bias?

 

[rebuilder 454]

If you ever grow up then please get back to me and we can discuss these things like adults. Until then...goodbye.

How childish.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, it doesn't. Not at all. Where are you getting that from? Please learn how to read and then get back to me.

Are you a postribber?
Postribbrrs can not handle any gathering pretrib

Noah and lot are pretrib dynamics.
Postribbrrs get all frustrated over it.
Kinda like all your posts.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You fail to recognize what is going to come to pass. Be not ignorant of this.

You fail to address any of my points. What a waste of time. Can you acknowledge that Gentile believers are among the elect now along with Israelite believers?

I'm not the one running around following the doctrine of unbelieving men that thought that God would not restore the nation of Israel. I am also not the one thinking that the 70th week of Daniel is about the Gentile Church. Additionally, I don't have the Church going through the wrath of God.

There is no such thing as "the Gentile Church". The church is made up of both Jew and Gentile believers and there is only one church. But, go ahead and keep making things up if you think that's what you have to do.

You are quick to accuse the brethren. Constantly.

No, it's not quick. Only after seeing my view misrepresented repeatedly as you have done. When it's done so many times even after I have corrected the misunderstanding, I tend to conclude that it's on purpose.

So you think. The foolish virgins will be wondering why they were not looking for the Lord in an hour that they think not. Unto them that look for Him will he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. The door will be shut and many will get their wish.

Why didn't you respond directly to what I said? Who do you think are the ones who will be with Jesus when He comes as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14?

 

[The Light]

You fail to address any of my points. What a waste of time. Can you acknowledge that Gentile believers are among the elect now along with Israelite believers?

Of course. The Gentiles will be the first harvest. And those of the twelve tribes, the seed of the woman will be the second harvest. Both are the elect.

There is no such thing as "the Gentile Church". The church is made up of both Jew and Gentile believers and there is only one church. But, go ahead and keep making things up if you think that' what you have to do.

Okay. The Church is made up of mostly Gentiles at this time. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the rapture, part of Israel will have their blindness removed.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Then God will turn His attention to His Chosen as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

No, it's not quick. Only after seeing my view misrepresented repeatedly as you have done. When it's done so many times even after I have corrected the misunderstanding, I tend to conclude that it's on purpose.

That's a load. You continually claim liar because you will not admit there shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.........................is THE GREAT TRIBULATION. If this time in Matthew 24 is not the great tribulation, PLEASE............Show where the great tribulation is in scripture. I can find it several places, let's see you list the scripture that is the great tribulation.

Matthew 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Why didn't you respond directly to what I said? Who do you think are the ones who will be with Jesus when He comes as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14?

1 Thessalonians 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Those described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 are the dead in Christ. The dead in Christ rise first. Those which are alive and remain shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thes 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The dead are raised first. The alive remain. The first harvest is the spring barley harvest.

Then the Lord will return and bring the dead in Christ with Him. Wherever the body is...................

When the Lord returns for the alive that remained it will be the wheat harvest at the end of summer, hence summer is near.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course. The Gentiles will be the first harvest. And those of the twelve tribes, the seed of the woman will be the second harvest. Both are the elect.

So, you acknowledge that Gentile believers are included among the elect. Let me remind you of what you said previously. First, I had said this:

You mean besides Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27? In New Testament times, Christians are the elect. So, the elect make up the Church. That is indicated throughout the New Testament. And those passages I mentioned indicate that some of the elect will be gathered FROM THE EARTH "after the tribulation of those days" and some would be gathered from heaven.

Then you said this:

LOL. Right. New Testament times. Here's some New Testament times that refute your claim

I was claiming that Christians are the elect referenced in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 and you scoffed at that. Now, you are acknowledging that Gentile Christians are among the elect. Well, Gentile Christians, along with Jewish Christians, together make up the church. So, with all this in mind, why would the elect being gathered in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 not be the church?

Okay.

Is this your way of agreeing with me that there is no such things as the Gentile church?

The Church is made up of mostly Gentiles at this time.

That always has and always will be the case because there are obviously far more Gentiles than Jews. Even if every Jew was saved there would be more Gentiles than Jews in the church.

When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the rapture, part of Israel will have their blindness removed.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Then God will turn His attention to His Chosen as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

You are not understanding what that verse means. You are acting as if it says all of Israel is blinded up until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That's not what it is saying. Israel being blinded in part means that some Israelites are blinded and some are not. In Paul's day there was a remnant of believers and the rest were blinded (Romans 11:5-7). It has been like that ever since. That is part of God's plan because His plan is to provoke Israelites to jealousy by way of them being envious of the salvation of the Gentiles so that they too want to be saved. And many Israelites have become saved that way for the past almost 2,000 years. That verse is saying the partial (not complete) blindness has happened to Israel while (not until - that's a bad translation) the fullness of the Gentiles comes in because it is the intention of God to have the Gentiles help remove their blindness by making them jealous.

This process I described above started long ago, led by Paul, as he described here:

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Romans 11 has been terribly misunderstood by many who postpone the salvation of Israelites by thousands of years. God forbid! What a terrible doctrine. Paul clearly doesn't agree with it as he hoped to help lead some of the very Israelites of his day who had been blinded to salvation by way of provoking them to jealousy by way of the salvation of the Gentiles. In your doctrine the ones who were blinded had no chance to be saved because you think they and their descendants would be blinded for thousands of years until the last Gentile to be saved is saved. But, Paul knew better than that and had the hope of leading some of them to salvation himself. Imagine if he thought they were blinded for the rest of their lives like you believe? What a shame that would've been.

That's a load. You continually claim liar because you will not admit there shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.........................is THE GREAT TRIBULATION. If this time in Matthew 24 is not the great tribulation, PLEASE............Show where the great tribulation is in scripture. I can find it several places, let's see you list the scripture that is the great tribulation.

As I have already pointed out multiple times scripture prophesies both great tribulation in Jerusalem and Judea and a separate great tribulation globally before Christ returns. You conflate the two. You seem to ignore that Jesus said the temple buildings standing at the time He was speaking would be destroyed and one of the questions the disciples asked Him was about that. For whatever reason, you have decided that it's not possible for Jesus to have talked about both a local tribulation event and a global tribulation event despite being asked both about when the temple would be destroyed and when His coming and the end of the age would occur.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 12:17 takes place during the time, times, half time that Satan will have left.

Revelation 12:7-9 is after the 1260 days of Revelation 12:6. The Revelation 12:7-9 war is in the second heaven.

No, it's the 3rd heaven.

Satan and his angels were expelled from the third heaven long ago, near the beginning of the creation of the earth and man.

No, they were allowed in heaven until the Rev 12 war.

Do yourself a favor and get Corel Paintshop Pro (available at Amazon). Then go to this thread, which I explain the basics of making charts and diagrams.

I can do that with regular MS paint.

Then make a diagram like did here... But arrange the timeframes in the order that you think is correct. And then post it.

IMO you are conflating many things that are not related in that graphic so i wouldn't be able to just rearrange it. Many things do not belong in that.

 

[The Light]

I was claiming that Christians are the elect referenced in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 and you scoffed at that. Now, you are acknowledging that Gentile Christians are among the elect. Well, Gentile Christians, along with Jewish Christians, together make up the church. So, with all this in mind, why would the elect being gathered in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 not be the church?

I'm not making things clear........that much is sure.

The point I'm trying to make is that the elect that are gathered from the earth in Matthew 24 are not the mostly Gentile Church. The Church will already be in heaven before Jesus comes in Matthew 24. The elect that are gathered from the earth in the gathering from heaven and earth will most be of the twelve tribes across the earth. They are the seed of the woman Israel.

Is this your way of agreeing with me that there is no such things as the Gentile church?

Yes. There is no such thing as a Gentile Church. However, the Church that is raptured to heaven before the tribulation will be mostly Gentile. And the Church that is gathered from the earth at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal (Matthew 24:29-31 will be mostly of the 12 tribes across the earth. Two fold into one fold. There will be two raptures.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

You are not understanding what that verse means. You are acting as if it says all of Israel is blinded up until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That's not what it is saying. Israel being blinded in part means that some Israelites are blinded and some are not. In Paul's day there was a remnant of believers and the rest were blinded (Romans 11:5-7). It has been like that ever since. That is part of God's plan because His plan is to provoke Israelites to jealousy by way of them being envious of the salvation of the Gentiles so that they too want to be saved. And many Israelites have become saved that way for the past almost 2,000 years. That verse is saying the partial (not complete) blindness has happened to Israel while (not until - that's a bad translation) the fullness of the Gentiles comes in because it is the intention of God to have the Gentiles help remove their blindness by making them jealous.



Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Romans 11 has been terribly misunderstood by many who postpone the salvation of Israelites by thousands of years. God forbid! What a terrible doctrine. Paul clearly doesn't agree with it as he hoped to help lead some of the very Israelites of his day who had been blinded to salvation by way of provoking them to jealousy by way of the salvation of the Gentiles. In your doctrine the ones who were blinded had no chance to be saved because you think they and their descendants would be blinded for thousands of years until the last Gentile to be saved is saved. But, Paul knew better than that and had the hope of leading some of them to salvation himself. Imagine if he thought they were blinded for the rest of their lives like you believe? What a shame that would've been.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest. But they served other gods. The Gentiles will be the first harvest. After the rapture of the Church there are 144,000 first fruits from the twelve tribes. They are the 1st fruits of the second harvest.

As I have already pointed out multiple times scripture prophesies both great tribulation in Jerusalem and Judea and a separate great tribulation globally before Christ returns. You conflate the two.

Yes the great tribulation will happen locally and globally at the same time.

You seem to ignore that Jesus said the temple buildings standing at the time He was speaking would be destroyed and one of the questions the disciples asked Him was about that. For whatever reason, you have decided that it's not possible for Jesus to have talked about both a local tribulation event and a global tribulation event despite being asked both about when the temple would be destroyed and when His coming and the end of the age would occur.

There will not be one stone upon another when Jesus comes for the gathering from heaven and earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

You prove your childishness even more by coming back and accusing me of supposed "childish attacks" just because I call out your childishness. What was being discussed is the description of the seventh trumpet in Revelation. Care to share any thoughts on that or would you rather try to change the subject?

The time of the 7th Trump is the second coming, resurrection, and final judgement

This 7th Trump is seen in multiple places through scripture, including Daniel 12:1-2 and Matthew 24:29-31

The scripture below is the same event in the Angel Michael standing up "At The Time Of The End"

Daniel 12:1 & Matthew 24:21 is the same exact "Great Tribulation" that akes place at "The Time Of The End" not in 70AD as you claim

Revelation 10:5-7KJV
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 24:21KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not making things clear........that much is sure.

It's okay. I appreciate your effort to clear things up.

The point I'm trying to make is that the elect that are gathered from the earth in Matthew 24 are not the mostly Gentile Church.

Why not? I see no basis for that conclusion. It's clear to me that Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27) and 1 Thess 4:14-17 are the same event because both describe Christians being gathered both from heaven and from the earth at that time.

The Church will already be in heaven before Jesus comes in Matthew 24.

Nah. There's no basis for that belief. Why would that be the case? Are you saying people who belong to Christ on the earth when Jesus comes after the tribulation are not in the church? God forbid! All who belong to Christ are in the church. When you start dividing His people up despite the fact that the New Testament repeatedly talks about how Jesus joined all of God's people together as one, then you know you are going astray in your thinking.

The elect that are gathered from the earth in the gathering from heaven and earth will most be of the twelve tribes across the earth. They are the seed of the woman Israel.

Again, I see no basis for this belief.

Yes. There is no such thing as a Gentile Church.

So, you were mistaken about that. And that happens. We're all mistaken at times. But, if you can be mistaken about something like that, could you also be mistaken about some of these other things you're saying? I think so.

However, the Church that is raptured to heaven before the tribulation will be mostly Gentile.

It will have both Jews and Gentiles. It naturally would have more Gentiles since there are far more Gentiles than Jews. I don't see what you're saying here as having any relevance as to why there would be a pre-trib rapture.

And the Church that is gathered from the earth at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal (Matthew 24:29-31 will be mostly of the 12 tribes across the earth.

Why are you making this division between Jews and Gentiles when Jesus brought them all together as one? It makes no sense. It contradicts the entire New Testament.

Two fold into one fold.

The two folds were made one by the blood of Christ long ago already. Do you not know that?

Please read this:

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

The two folds are NOW one fold according to Paul. Jesus accomplished that with His shed blood. Why do you act as if this has not yet been accomplished?

There will be two raptures.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Again...

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

The two folds were already brought into one fold long ago.

Yes the great tribulation will happen locally and globally at the same time.

There will not be one stone upon another when Jesus comes for the gathering from heaven and earth.

There was not one stone upon another after the Roman armies destroyed the temple buildings in 70 AD. That is not the same event as the global one that occurs before Christ returns in the future.

 

[Douggg]

No, they were allowed in heaven until the Rev 12 war.

The third heaven is where God's throne is and is also occupied by the holy angels, who praise God and Jesus, Revelation 5:11. John was taken up to the third heaven and wrote down what he saw and heard. Satan and his angels were not in the third heaven.

Satan and his angels were expelled from the third heaven long ago, near the beginning of the creation of the earth and man.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The third heaven is where God's throne is and is also occupied by the holy angels, who praise God and Jesus, Revelation 5:11. John was taken up to the third heaven and wrote down what he saw and heard. Satan and his angels were not in the third heaven.

Satan and his angels were expelled from the third heaven long ago, near the beginning of the creation of the earth and man.

That is not true. They though sinned and fell from the former positions they had, they still had access to heaven. We can see Satan having access to the third heaven here when he talked to God about Job:

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Where is the Lord? In the third heaven. And this talks about Satan being there, so you are wrong that he and his angels were expelled from there even before this.

 

[Douggg]

That is not true. They though sinned and fell from the former positions they had, they still had access to heaven. We can see Satan having access to the third heaven here when he talked to God about Job:

Satan was summoned to the third heaven by God to appear before God. Satan was not in the third heaven before being summoned, but on earth.

 

[The Light]

It's okay. I appreciate your effort to clear things up.

It's really hard to get my point across as I often forget you haven't heard much of what I say before.

Why not? I see no basis for that conclusion. It's clear to me that Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27) and 1 Thess 4:14-17 are the same event because both describe Christians being gathered both from heaven and from the earth at that time.

1 Thes 4 is about the rapture of the Church. The has already happened before the seals are opened. Thats why there are kings and priest in heaven in Rev 5 and 24 elders with crowns. You don't get crowns until Jesus comes.

Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27) are about the 12 tribes being raptured at the 6th seal before the wrath of God. They go through the great tribulation. This gathering from heaven and earth can be seen in 1 Corinthians 15

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Most think that 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 is the same event. It's not. In 1 Thes 4 the dead are raised first. Then the Lord returns for the alive that remained. In 1 Cor 15 the dead and alive are changed at the same time, the twinkling of an eye.

1 Thes 4 occurs at the trump of God or voice of God and 1 Cor 15 occurs at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.
1 Thes 4 will be like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 6 days before the flood. Whereas 1 Cor 15 is like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

Nah. There's no basis for that belief. Why would that be the case? Are you saying people who belong to Christ on the earth when Jesus comes after the tribulation are not in the church?

When Christ comes to the mostly Gentile Church, blindness has not been removed from the 12 tribes. Those in the Church at that time know His voice and are in the first fold. After the blindness is removed from part of Israel, many will become Christians. When Christ returns at the 6th seal (Matt 24:29-31) the harvest will be more of the twelve tribes than Gentiles. So when Christ comes, the second fold will be raptured and both are joined into one fold........the Church.

God forbid! All who belong to Christ are in the church. When you start dividing His people up despite the fact that the New Testament repeatedly talks about how Jesus joined all of God's people together as one, then you know you are going astray in your thinking.

They are divided into two folds as when Christ comes for His bride, those of the 12 tribes across the earth are still in blindness. The secret pretrib rapture will happen. Then the Lord will come back at the 6th seal. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. And yet He remains in the clouds at this coming.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

So, you were mistaken about that. And that happens. We're all mistaken at times. But, if you can be mistaken about something like that, could you also be mistaken about some of these other things you're saying? I think so.

It's more about making things clear. When I think of the Church being raptured, I think of the mostly Gentile Church. Of course, after the Church is gone and part of Israel has its blindness removed, when they become believers, they are also the Church as there are two-fold into one.

It will have both Jews and Gentiles. It naturally would have more Gentiles since there are far more Gentiles than Jews. I don't see what you're saying here as having any relevance as to why there would be a pre-trib rapture.

I separate Jews and Gentiles because there are two different folds. The first fold will be mostly Gentiles as the Jews are still blinded. When the Lord comes for the second fold it will likely have more Jews. I would think that any Gentile that was not found worthy to escape all the things that will come to pass, will be in the hour of testing and will have to make a choice with their life. I would say those that are alive at the end of the great tribulation will be of the 12 tribes because they are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Why are you making this division between Jews and Gentiles when Jesus brought them all together as one? It makes no sense. It contradicts the entire New Testament.

I agree that all will end up as the Church. But the Lord divides the timing of the two folds. And we can see it in the Word.

The two folds were made one by the blood of Christ long ago already. Do you not know that?

This is not correct. The two folds have to become believers and be sealed before they can become part of the Church. It is the mostly Gentile Church this is sealed first. They are then raptured. Then there are 144,000 sealed that become first fruits. The rest of the believers are sealed and are either killed during the great tribulation or are caught up alive. All go to heaven as the great multitude.

Please read this:

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

The two folds are NOW one fold according to Paul. Jesus accomplished that with His shed blood. Why do you act as if this has not yet been accomplished?


Again...

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

The two folds were already brought into one fold long ago.

Only when you believe are you sealed with the spirit. The mostly Gentile Church is the first harvest. What will the Jews say when they realize that the Church is gone?

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The Jew can only receive salvation and become part of one-fold when they believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the Lamb of God that paid the price for their sins.

No one can come to the father but by Him.

There was not one stone upon another after the Roman armies destroyed the temple buildings in 70 AD.

This is not correct. There is currently one stone upon another at the Temple mount. This is unfulfilled.

That is not the same event as the global one that occurs before Christ returns in the future.

Read this please.

Luke 21
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

If you read these verses correctly, it says..............When will these things be. What things? When there is not one stone upon another. And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass. What sign will there be when what things come to pass? When there is not one stone upon another.

The events of Luke 21, the Temple destruction when there is not one stone upon another, has not occurred. The old Jesus asks three separate questions in Matthew 24 is proven by Luke 21:6-7 to be three separate questions regarding the same era in time...........the last days of the age.

 

[Jay Ross]

Satan was summoned to the third heaven by God to appear before God. Satan was not in the third heaven before being summoned, but on earth.

This is the verse you are referring to: -

Job 1:6 - 6 One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satana also came with them.

Nowhere in this verse, does it talk about Satan being specifically summoned to appear before God, with the other sons of God. In the discourse between God and Satan we learn that Satan had been roaming on the earth after God had asked Satan a question.

Job 1:7 - 7 And the Lord said to Satan, {the adversary}, “From where do you come?”

So, Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

Just from the silence of these two verses, we might be able to draw some conclusions concerning Satan's relationship with God but then we would be construction a false doctrine which does not match the context of the verses read.

Goodbye

 

[ewq1938]

The third heaven is where God's throne is and is also occupied by the holy angels, who praise God and Jesus, Revelation 5:11. John was taken up to the third heaven and wrote down what he saw and heard. Satan and his angels were not in the third heaven.

Satan and his angels were expelled from the third heaven long ago, near the beginning of the creation of the earth and man.

No they weren't which is why you offer no evidence. satan and his angels are cast from heaven one time, found in Rev 12.

 

[Taken]

False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

Scripturally:
Secrets of Gods Knowledge BELONGS TO God.

Secrets of Gods Knowledge REVEALED, are NO LONGER SECRET, and thereafter BELONG to the WORLD.

Knowledge of ManKIND “IN CHRIST”, (BY BEING RISEN UP ABOVE THE FACE OF THE EARTH), ESCAPING….WRATH…
Wrath of the Lamb,
Wrath of the Devil,
Wrath of God,
IS EXPRESSLY REVEALED…
No such thing as a “SECRET RAPTURE”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture"

OP ^ has evolved to Debate ABOUT…
The “HEAVENS” Plural…and mentioned in the Plural, nearly 150 Times IN Scripture.

God IS <—>EVERYWHERE!
Nothing ESCAPES knowledge and understanding.

YES…EARTH is presently Gods FOOTSTOOL.

YES…HEAVEN is Gods THRONE….
………Gods HOUSE.
………Gods HABITAT.
………Gods ESTATE.
………Gods KINGDOM.

“IF” one STUDIES the Word of God…
they SHOULD DISCOVER…the FACTS regarding the MYSTERY of the PLURAL HeavenS

“IF” one OBSERVES with their OWN EYES capabilities….they SHOULD DISCOVER

* Gods HEAVENLY ESTATE IS ABOVE the STARS. (THIRD HEAVEN)
* No DARKNESS ENTERS Gods ESTATE.
* No LIGHT ESCAPES Gods ESTATE.
* DARKNESS; is capable OF committing SIN.
* LIGHT;……is incapable OF committing SIN.

* EVERY…created ANGEL SPIRIT, was CREATED with the ABILITY to commit SIN.
* EVERY…conceived and naturally born HUMAN was conceived and naturally born IN SIN.
* EVERY…naturally born HUMAN has FREELY “committed” SIN.

Continued…

 

[Taken]

Continued…

* Humans…TRYING to Carnally Minded “logically” CONCLUDE…
WHO, goes, wanders, travels IN and OUT of Gods ESTATE (THIRD) Heaven IS MOOT.

The MID-HEAVENS…(whereby Human men can SEE in the night sky's, MILLIONS of STARS,) are virtually, SEEING THE “ESTATE” OF “Spirit Angels”….WHOM such “Spirit Angels”….
* HAVE: by, through, of their “OWN FREEWILL”…
* KEPT, maintained, remained, in allegiance, in VIRTUOUS, holy, in and of obedient Servants OF the Lord God Almighty.
* Their ESTATE (mid-heavens) clearly OBSERVED by mankind…YET not visited, traveled to, occupied, BY mankind.

* The LOWER HEAVENS…Are ABLE to be SEEN by manKIND, Visited, Traveled to;
AND Have SINCE the Beginning to this day, of Mankind been SEEN, Visited, Traveled to AND Experienced by MANkind.

The HEAVENS ARE Gods THRONE.
Gods Kingdom.
Gods Home.
Defiantly encompasses “Gods Presence.”
Defiantly “HOLY”.
Defiantly “WHERE” holy spirits Praise, Serve and Worship God.
* BUT NOT God “ESTATE” which IS EXPRESSLY “ONLY” the THRID and HIGH HEAVEN. Heaven OF the Heavens.

Even “human” scientists WHOSE field is “space / matter” exploration… have made VISIBLE “discoveries”, of VAST very DISTANCE masses of STARS, naked to the human eyes, without powerful lenses.

Even “human” scientists Have Discovered a conundrum of “Very Distant”, TAGGED:
Portals, Black holes, powerful mysteries…that is baffling to Explain….
WHEN the Word of God is canned out of the conversations, commentaries, reports and scientific journals.

SCIENCE…from the beginning of manKind…was Expressly, designed By God Himself, FOR manKind, to MAKE Discoveries…ABOUT the Lord God, ABOUT His Creations….AND Acknowledge ALL of Creation and Making IS by, through, of: The Lord God Almighty…
AND to USE such Discoveries…
FOR GOOD, wholesome, upstanding purposes.

THE RAPTURE IS NOT SECRET.
It is an OFFERING, an INVITATION, FOR the individuals WHO freely elected and Chose to Become MADE “IN” Christ…
….Just as in ANY ancient traditional Jewish Wedding…
Whereby an agreement of marriage is struck.
Whereby the Bride to be readies herself.
Whereby the Grooms servant calls to the Bride to be, it is time to leave HER fathers house and Go to her Grooms father’s house to meet her Groom.
Whereby the Bride THROUGH HER VEIL SEES her Grooms for the FIRST TIME AS HE IS.
Whereby the Bride remains VEILED unto the EYES of her Groom…until the vows of the marriage.
Whereby OTHERS are in attendance as WITNESSES of the vows of marriage.
Whereby ONCE the vows ARE Completed…the Groom Takes His Bride to “HIS HOUSE”…to KEEP Her FOREVER WITH Him.

IT’s NOT a “secret mystery”…
The Facts have ALL been Revealed…
WHO is the Father…
WHERE is the Fathers House…
WHO is the Son…
WHO is the Sons Bride…
WHERE is the Sons House…
WHERE shall the Son and His Bride BE forever.
HOW the Fathers House and the Sons House SHALL become MADE One and the Same.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Douggg]

False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

Scripturally:
Secrets of Gods Knowledge BELONGS TO God.

Secrets of Gods Knowledge REVEALED, are NO LONGER SECRET, and thereafter BELONG to the WORLD.

Knowledge of ManKIND “IN CHRIST”, (BY BEING RISEN UP ABOVE THE FACE OF THE EARTH), ESCAPING….WRATH…
Wrath of the Lamb,
Wrath of the Devil,
Wrath of God,
IS EXPRESSLY REVEALED…
No such thing as a “SECRET RAPTURE”.

Glory to God,
Taken

The secret is that only God the Father knows when it will take place, the day, the moment, the year. God the Father will tell the Son, Jesus, now is the time to go raise the dead in Christ and translate the living in Christ. And Jesus will come and resurrect the dead in Christ and the translate, rapture, the living in Christ.