False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[The Light]

There is obviously a difference between a reference to "the great tribulation" and a reference to "great tribulation". The former implies a reference to a particular event while the latter refers to great tribulation in general. In Acts 14:22 it says "we must through much tribulation enter in to the kingdom of God". That is not referring to any particular event, but is referring generally to all Christians having to go through much or a great amount of tribulation in their lives. That is what I believe Revelation 7:14 is referring to. If you can't understand the difference then I can't help you.

Here is THE great tribulation in Matthew 24

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The tribulation of THOSE days is the Great Tribulation because the great tribulation is such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

If you think Matthew 24:21 is not THE Great tribulation you are mistaken.

 

[The Light]

You mean besides Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27? In New Testament times, Christians are the elect. So, the elect make up the Church. That is indicated throughout the New Testament. And those passages I mentioned indicate that some of the elect will be gathered FROM THE EARTH "after the tribulation of those days" and some would be gathered from heaven.

LOL. Right. New Testament times. Here's some New Testament times that refute your claim

Romans 11

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Notice here that after the tribulation, the elect, which refers to Christians in the church, are gathered not only FROM THE EARTH, but also from heaven. That lines up with what we see here:

The Church is already in heaven in Revelation 5. At the gathering from heaven and earth it is the seed of the woman that is gathered from the earth, which is why there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes of Israel.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This talks about "them also which sleep in Jesus", also called "the dead in Christ", coming with Him when the rapture occurs. That is referring to the souls of the dead in Christ coming with Jesus from heaven. Those are the elect being gathered from heaven that are referenced in Mark 13:27. Then it talks about those who are alive and remain being caught up together with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. So, those who are alive and remain are the elect being gathered FROM THE EARTH that are mentioned in Mark 13:27.

The dead in Christ rise first and are taken to heaven. This is the spring barley harvest. The Lord returns at the end of summer for the alive that remained. This is the wheat harvest. When the Lord comes for the alive that remained, He brings the dead in Christ with Him.

Then the twelve tribes across the earth will realize they missed the harvest.

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

What makes you think that anyone would know the day or hour even with the church being on the earth during the tribulation?

First off, the Church will not be on earth during the great tribulation which is a time like no other nor shall ever be.

We might know it's near based on what is going on, but we still wouldn't know the day or hour.

Those that don't think the Lord comes for His Church, such as yourself, certainly are not watching. As to those that are watching............

Rev 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Also, don't ask ridiculous questions like "Don't you believe your Lord"? Are you a child or an adult? Everyone here believes our Lord, so it is completely inappropriate to ask a fellow Christian that question. Please grow up.

Always the insults. Try scripture instead. Let it do the talking. Never mind. That hasn't worked out.

 

[The Light]

You are misunderstanding the verses in Revelation 11:15-18. Those verses about the reaction in heaven, when the seven trumpet sounds.

The reaction is that everyone in heaven is rejoicing, for the time has come for Satan and his angel s to lose their stranglehold over the nations of the earth. And their kingdom of Babylon the Great to come to an end.
And all of the evil and violence they have done to creation to come to an end.

When the seventh trumpet sounds, God's wrath on Satan's kingdom of Babylon the Great will be poured out.

No sir. When the 7th trumpet sounds, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Armageddon is OVER. Christ has set up His kingdom on the earth. The wrath of God is OVER. When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the 1st 6 seals. When you are reading Revelation 15 and 16 you are back in the 7th seal.

Revelation 7
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Are you even following the discussion carefully or just skimming as fast as you can through it? It was quoted from the KJV, so that it was I was specifically talking about.

Revelation 7:14 (KJV): And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

What do you see here? Does it say "great tribulation" or "the great tribulation"?


There are other translations that translate it as "the great tribulation", but the word "the" is not there in the Greek. That's why it's not there in the KJV because that is a word for word translation. Please take more time to carefully read what is actually being discussed before you chime in next time.

Again...pure baloney.
Are you following what is posted, or are you just skimming what is a no brainer??
I looked it up in the Greek.
I ALREADY posted what is there.
You are just making the ENTIRE THING UP.
THE GREEK HAS "THE" TWICE IN THAT SENTENCE.
You have no case at all.

You have no access to the greek??????
You mention "word for word"?????
Here it is word for word.; (FROM THE GREEK)
"...the ones coming out of THE GREAT AFFLICTION THE GREAT..."

How many "the's" do you count in THAT VERSEOF THE Greek TEXT????
You know, the verse you erroneously need "the" to dissappear?????
You are making a fool of yourself.
You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You mean besides Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27? In New Testament times, Christians are the elect. So, the elect make up the Church. That is indicated throughout the New Testament. And those passages I mentioned indicate that some of the elect will be gathered FROM THE EARTH "after the tribulation of those days" and some would be gathered from heaven.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Notice here that after the tribulation, the elect, which refers to Christians in the church, are gathered not only FROM THE EARTH, but also from heaven. That lines up with what we see here:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This talks about "them also which sleep in Jesus", also called "the dead in Christ", coming with Him when the rapture occurs. That is referring to the souls of the dead in Christ coming with Jesus from heaven. Those are the elect being gathered from heaven that are referenced in Mark 13:27. Then it talks about those who are alive and remain being caught up together with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. So, those who are alive and remain are the elect being gathered FROM THE EARTH that are mentioned in Mark 13:27.


What makes you think that anyone would know the day or hour even with the church being on the earth during the tribulation? We might know it's near based on what is going on, but we still wouldn't know the day or hour.

Also, don't ask ridiculous questions like "Don't you believe your Lord"? Are you a child or an adult? Everyone here believes our Lord, so it is completely inappropriate to ask a fellow Christian that question. Please grow up.

So, your doctrine has Noah and lot gathered after judgement?
What version is that in?

 

[rebuilder 454]

There is obviously a difference between a reference to "the great tribulation" and a reference to "great tribulation". The former implies a reference to a particular event while the latter refers to great tribulation in general. In Acts 14:22 it says "we must through much tribulation enter in to the kingdom of God". That is not referring to any particular event, but is referring generally to all Christians having to go through much or a great amount of tribulation in their lives. That is what I believe Revelation 7:14 is referring to. If you can't understand the difference then I can't help you.

If you can not acknowledge what is in the word of God then I can not help you.
Especially since GOD put "the" in there TWICE so certain cunning doctrines would be foolish to try and change it.
But your reckless doctrine has certain agendas outside of the truth huh?

Can we say B U S T E D?????

 

[Douggg]

hen you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the 1st 6 seals. When you are reading Revelation 15 and 16 you are back in the 7th seal.

The events of the first six seals cover the 7 year 70th week up to the time of the sign of the Son of Man appearing in heaven in the sixth seal event.

Within the 7 year 70th week, when the great tribulation begins, the trumpet plagues begin to take place.

No sir. When the 7th trumpet sounds, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

When the seventh trumpet sounds the third woe begins. The third woe is Satan cast down to earth.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Do you see that part I highlighted in red ?

That is the reaction of rejoicing in Revelation 11:15-18 when the seventh trumpet sounds. The seventh trumpet sounds and them in heaven react with overwhelming joy and praising God in Revelation 11:15-18.

It does not mean that Armageddon has taken place and the 7 years over. No, it means the time of the judgement on Satan and his angels kingdom of Babylon the great has come.

 

[The Light]

The events of the first six seals cover the 7 year 70th week up to the time of the sign of the Son of Man appearing in heaven in the sixth seal event.

Why do you not think the 70th week is over after the 7th seal is complete..........meaning that the 7th trumpet has sounded?

Within the 7 year 70th week, when the great tribulation begins, the trumpet plagues begin to take place.

No Douggg. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation...............that occurs at the 6th seal.

View attachment 46317


When the seventh trumpet sounds the third woe begins. The third woe is Satan cast down to earth.

I have no idea how you can draw this conclusion. It seems you read right past..........The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Christ has set up His kingdom on earth. The WRATH of GOD is OVER at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Do you see that part I highlighted in red ?

That is the reaction of rejoicing in Revelation 11:15-18 when the seventh trumpet sounds.

This has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet. When Satan goes after the woman, Israel he cannot get to her and then He goes after her seed.................the twelve tribes across the earth. The tribulation of those days........The Great Tribulation...........is over at the 6th seal.

The seventh trumpet sounds and them in heaven react with overwhelming joy and praising God in Revelation 11:15-18.

The 7th trumpet sounds and the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Christ has set up His kingdom on the earth. The wrath of God is over. The trumpets and vials are finished.

It does not mean that Armageddon has taken place and the 7 years over.

Sure it does. Armageddon is over and finished by the time the 7th trumpet sounds. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Why do you read past this without understanding the words?

 

[Douggg]

Why do you not think the 70th week is over after the 7th seal is complete..........meaning that the 7th trumpet has sounded?

Because the seventh trumpet sounding announces the third woe. Satan cast down to earth having just a little time left, i.e. the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14, is the third woe.

.

When Satan goes after the woman, Israel he cannot get to her and then He goes after her seed.................the twelve tribes across the earth. The tribulation of those days........The Great Tribulation...........is over at the 6th seal.

After the tribulation of those days (i.e. nearly all the great tribulation) in Matthew 24:29 is over, then the sixth seal event takes place. And the sign of the Son of Man is seen in heaven. And the kings of the earth react by gathering their armies at at Armageddon in Revelation 16:16 to prepare to make war on Jesus.

Then what happens in Revelation 16:17-21 ?

 

[Douggg]

Sure it does. Armageddon is over and finished by the time the 7th trumpet sounds. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Why do you read past this without understanding the words?

I understand the words perfectly. What you are not understanding is that them in heaven are reacting with joy and praise to God as soon as the seventh trumpet sounds, because they know that the time has come that Satan and his angels kingdom of Babylon the Great are about to come to an end.

 

[ewq1938]

When the seventh trumpet sounds the third woe begins. The third woe is Satan cast down to earth.

Nope. Christ comes in the 7th trump/3rd woe so satan had to have been cast out of heaven before that, LONG before that. It makes no sense for Christ and satan to come to the Earth at the same time. satan has to be here for years before the trib ever begins, then is here for the trib and only when the trib is over will Christ come.

 

[Douggg]

Nope. Christ comes in the 7th trump/3rd woe so satan had to have been cast out of heaven before that, LONG before that. It makes no sense for Christ and satan to come to the Earth at the same time. satan has to be here for years before the trib ever begins, then is here for the trib and only when the trib is over will Christ come.

Satan will be cast down to earth from the second heaven in Revelation 12:7-9, when the seventh trumpet sounds. The seventh trumpet signals the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth. Revelation 12:12.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Satan will be cast down to earth, a time, times, half time before Jesus returns.

Here is my diagram of the time frames given in the bible, all 15 of them. The diagrams shows whether they either begin at the start of the 7 years. Or whether they end at the end of 7 years when Jesus returns.

These are the same time frames in your bible. Make a diagram that shows the position of each time frame as you think is correct and post it.

 

[ewq1938]

Satan will be cast down to earth from the second heaven in Revelation 12:7-9, when the seventh trumpet sounds.

The 7th trump isn't found in Rev 12. The war against Christians is the trib (6th trump) and that doesn't even start until just after the last verse in Rev 12.

 

[Douggg]

The 7th trump isn't found in Rev 12.

The third woe to inhabiters of the earth associated with the sounding of the seventh trumpet sounding is in Revelation 12:12.

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

"woe to the inhabiters of the earth" is found in no text in Revelation once the seventh angel sounds - other than Revelation 12:12.

The seventh angel sounds and then Michael and his angels cast Satan and his angels down to earth from the second heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

The third woe to inhabiters of the earth associated with the sounding of the seventh trumpet sounding is in Revelation 12:12.

No, all of Rev 12 is BEFORE satan conducts the war against Christians found in the last verse of the chp. That means the 6th and 7th trump cannot be in Rev 12 since the 6th trump is the trib. The woe mentioned in Rev 12 *might* be the 5th trump or an earlier trump but the 6th and 7th happen after the timeline of Rev 12.

The seventh angel sounds and then Michael and his angels cast Satan and his angels down to earth from the second heaven.

satan is cast from the 3rd heaven where God and the angels are, not the 2nd heaven which is outer space.

 

[Douggg]

No, all of Rev 12 is BEFORE satan conducts the war against Christians found in the last verse of the chp. That means the 6th and 7th trump cannot be in Rev 12 since the 6th trump is the trib. The woe mentioned in Rev 12 *might* be the 5th trump or an earlier trump but the 6th and 7th happen after the timeline of Rev 12.

satan is cast from the 3rd heaven where God and the angels are, not the 2nd heaven which is outer space.

Revelation 12:17 takes place during the time, times, half time that Satan will have left.

Revelation 12:7-9 is after the 1260 days of Revelation 12:6. The Revelation 12:7-9 war is in the second heaven. Satan and his angels were expelled from the third heaven long ago, near the beginning of the creation of the earth and man.

Do yourself a favor and get Corel Paintshop Pro (available at Amazon). Then go to this thread, which I explain the basics of making charts and diagrams.

Using graphics program to make timelines, diagrams

I use Corel Paintshop Pro program to make timelines and diagrams. I use such timelines and diagrams in discussions regarding the end times. This thread I am going to go through some of the steps to using the program. The basic fundamental principle is how to make layers. layers are like...

www.christianityboard.com

Then make a diagram like did here... But arrange the timeframes in the order that you think is correct. And then post it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24:29-30 & Daniel 12:1-2 is the 7th Trump (The End)

Your predictable, when your in a corner trying desperately to defend your false teachings you resort to childish attacks

You prove your childishness even more by coming back and accusing me of supposed "childish attacks" just because I call out your childishness. What was being discussed is the description of the seventh trumpet in Revelation. Care to share any thoughts on that or would you rather try to change the subject?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. Right. New Testament times. Here's some New Testament times that refute your claim

Romans 11

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

This doesn't refute my claim at all. It supports it. Who is Paul including among the elect here? Only believing Israelites. The rest (unbelieving Israelites) were blinded and not elect. But, if you actually understood what is taught in the New Testament overall then you would understand that Gentile believers are also among the elect.

Paul called himself "the apostle of the Gentiles" (Romans 11:13).

This is what he said regarding the ones he ministered to:

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Since he was "the apostle of the Gentiles" that means he endured hardship for their sake and he included them among the elect.

Here is Paul addressing Gentile believers in Colossae:

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Here is Paul addressing Gentile believers in the church of the Thessalonians:

1 Thessalonians 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Here is Peter referring to those in the church at Babylon as elect:

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

So, explain to me how you supposedly refuted my claim?

The Church is already in heaven in Revelation 5. At the gathering from heaven and earth it is the seed of the woman that is gathered from the earth, which is why there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes of Israel.


The dead in Christ rise first and are taken to heaven. This is the spring barley harvest. The Lord returns at the end of summer for the alive that remained. This is the wheat harvest. When the Lord comes for the alive that remained, He brings the dead in Christ with Him.

Then the twelve tribes across the earth will realize they missed the harvest.

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.


First off, the Church will not be on earth during the great tribulation which is a time like no other nor shall ever be.

Total nonsense. You have a doctrine all to yourself. It's so convoluted that no one can understand it except you.

Those that don't think the Lord comes for His Church, such as yourself, certainly are not watching.

When did I ever say He's not coming for His church? Never. Why do you lie like this? Do you have any conscience about that? Do you not believe that lying is a sin? Of course He is coming for His church. We all believe that. We just disagree on the timing of it in relation to the tribulation. Scripture teaches that He is coming both with and for His church at the same time (1 Thess 4:14-17, Mark 13:24-27). Those coming with Him at that time are the souls of the dead in Christ. Those He is coming for are those who are alive and remain. And the dead in Christ as well in terms of raising their bodies from the dead.

As to those that are watching............

Rev 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Always the insults. Try scripture instead. Let it do the talking. Never mind. That hasn't worked out.

Try interpreting scripture without doctrinal bias once and see where it leads.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, your doctrine has Noah and lot gathered after judgement?
What version is that in?

No, it doesn't. Not at all. Where are you getting that from? Please learn how to read and then get back to me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you can not acknowledge what is in the word of God then I can not help you.
Especially since GOD put "the" in there TWICE so certain cunning doctrines would be foolish to try and change it.
But your reckless doctrine has certain agendas outside of the truth huh?

Can we say B U S T E D?????

If you ever grow up then please get back to me and we can discuss these things like adults. Until then...goodbye.