Revelation 11 and Revelation 12

[Timtofly]

What are you talking about? Jesus's birth and ascension are written about in Revelation 12. You can't just brush that aside.

Then you don't think the Seals are literal on a literal Lamb's book of life?

You do not think there are literal angels using literal Trumpets then?

Jesus' birth and ascension are not explicit words. John uses symbolism to show an historical parenthetical point. Parenthetical points do not mean that symbolism is part of the chronological order of the actual literal narrative.

Besides there were no chapters when John wrote, so you are going to have to be more specific on what is not in chronological order than just throwing out "11" and "12".

A part of Revelation 11 comes chronologically before some parts of Revelation 12. To state otherwise is disingenuous.

Jesus being born is not part of the chronological narrative. The angels cast to the earth by the tail of the dragon is not part of the chronological narrative. The dragon is not part of the chronological narrative as a complete beast. The first part of Revelation 12 is an historical parenthetical, and not part of the chronological narrative. This historical parenthetical introduces Israel and the statue image of Daniel 2 into the narrative.

An historical footnote does not mean the entire book is not in chronological order. Yet you say the book is not in chronological order because you think history has to be force fit into the chronology presented. Past history in this case is not even in chronological order. You have Israel, Jesus, then Babylon, the Medes and Persians, Greece, Rome, two other kingdoms, Satan, and his rebel angels all symbolized, and not even in chronological order. The angels cast to earth was never a literal event, but would have happened first. Daniel 2's statue which is symbolized by the dragon did not cast the angels to earth symbolically nor literally, as part of the chronological narrative. Neither did Satan cast them to earth. Some make the claim, they were cast out at the Cross. But none of this symbolism is John stating when these symbols happened. They only introduce Satan into the narrative.

The first part of chapter 11 is a parenthetical describing what happens in the 42 months after the 7th Trumpet sounds. It is a literal event with a literal 2 humans not symbolism representing historical law and prophets. It is not part of the chronological narrative, but a parenthetical describing events happening while the 7th Trumpet is sounding for a week and 42 months.

You can see when the chronology picks back up, because John reminds us of the chronology:

"The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded."

We know the second woe was talked about back in Revelation 9:18-21.

John could not write down the 7 Thunders, so he could not reconnect with them. So Revelation 10, and the first half of 11 are parenthetical descriptions about the 7th Trumpet. A parenthetical is used so a writer does not have to keep stopping the narrative every 2 minutes. If John had written the 7 Thunders we would have the chronological events between the 6th Trumpet and the 7th Trumpet. These two Trumpets do not sound back to back. The 2 witnesses are not in the first 6 Trumpets, not the 7 Thunders. They appear after the 7th Trumpet has already sounded. Satan and his angels are kicked out of heaven by Michael after the 7th Trumpet has already sounded.

The 7th Trumpet is only mentioned briefly as sounding in the last half of Revelation 11. But the third woe is Satan allowed 42 months that is covered in chapter 13, 17, and 18. Those chapters are the 3rd woe. The 3rd woe ends at Armageddon, with all humanity dead, the FP and beast cast into the LOF, and Satan bound in the pit for a thousand years.

John gives us 3 woes as Satan's part of the events. John does not say the angel in the 5th Trumpet is Satan. Satan has not been introduced yet.

"And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

"One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."

"The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

Satan is not introduced until after John writes about the 7th Trumpet. However since we have an historical parenthetical next, we can assume that Satan did exist, and took part in the first 2 woes.

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 24:15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Where did He say there would be trouble "all over" when He said people would need to flee? Is Judea "all over"?

The point by the other poster is they were to flee because of great tribulation.

Since that tribulation will include every human everywhere on earth, fleeing from tribulation is not the point.

 

[Davy]

Bible proof that the "great tribulation" will be world-wide is easy. Revelation 17:15 Jesus explains what the symbolic "waters" represent, and Rev.13:4-8 shows the "dragon" (Satan) will be worshiped by the whole... world, except for those whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

 

[Douggg]

Satan will be the coming beast-king, to Jerusalem for the end of this world. You just don't realize it yet.

No, Satan will not be the beast-king.

In Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.:

the mouth of the dragon
the mouth of the beast
the mouth of the false prophet.

Rev 13:4-9
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

They worshipped who?? "the dragon", another title for Satan per Rev.12:9.

Satan gives power to the beast. So Satan himself is not the beast.

the beast will be worshiped.
and also Satan will be worshiped.

How will Satan be worshiped ? Because when Satan is cast down to the earth, he will incarnate the statue image of the beast-king, making it appear to come alive and speak.

The false prophet then requires everyone to worship the Satan incarnated statue image of the beast-king.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, Satan will not be the beast-king.

In Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.:

the mouth of the dragon
the mouth of the beast
the mouth of the false prophet.

Again, Satan is a spirit. It is t he s pirit of the False prophet, of antirehcirst, of the lawless man. He spans history. And when this spirit Satan loosed form the pit, his influence will increase as he works within man as the false prophets and antichrists to wage spiritual war against the true Witnesses. These are they who masquerade as ministers of righteousness but the false doctrine or gospel comes out of their mouth.

Satan gives power to the beast. So Satan himself is not the beast.

You misunderstood. Satan is a SPIRIT that works within men. The beast is a body of false prophets and christs. Satan gave them the power over the Truthful witnesses in the church.

the beast will be worshiped.
and also Satan will be worshiped.

People who have not yet sealed by God in the congregation will worship or be deceived by the beast (false prophets and christs). They worship the spirit of Satan which is why they believe a lie. Selah!

How will Satan be worshiped ? Because when Satan is cast down to the earth, he will incarnate the statue image of the beast-king, making it appear to come alive and speak.

Satan is a spirit within man. He was worshipped when man do his will.

The false prophet then requires everyone to worship the Satan incarnated statue image of the beast-king.

Silly! God is not talking about physical statue that can speak so everyone will be shocked and worship that image. Absurd. You do not know what the image of the beast is anyway so not going to waste my time explain this to you as I already have.

 

[ewq1938]

The Jews will not worship Satan

Why not? They have worshipped false gods before and it's likely satan is behind those false gods anyways. satan will appear as an angel of light, a good and holy thing so people will and do worship him whether knowingly or not.

 

[ewq1938]

Again, Satan is a spirit.

satan is an angel, a former archangel. He isn't a bodiless spirit only but it is believed he and his fallen angels can send forth their own spirits but these originate from physical angels.

 

[Stash]

Why can’t the image of the beast be the Internet or TV?
A great description for the times. The Bible says the whole world will be fooled. What can possibly do that?

I always hear people with opinions however, they cannot answer questions like the one just put forth
how can the whole world be fooled
give me some scenarios

Trump said we had five months until September 22 election begins
while he was talking to Dr. Phil

Was that a hint?

Five months is coming up quite a bit
Lifespan of the locust

 

[TribulationSigns]

satan is an angel, a former archangel. He isn't a bodiless spirit only but it is believed he and his fallen angels can send forth their own spirits but these originate from physical angels.

No. Show me in Scripture where Satan was an archangel, literally. The word angel [anggelos] in Greek, means messenger, not angel as if he's a celestial being with feather wings.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Was that a hint?

A hint that you are wrong. Please read the context of Revelation 9 instead of trying to interpret the context with current world event.

When the bottomless pit (where Satan was bound) was opened, the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. The sun being darkened is the portrait God was painting of the darkness of Revelation 16, where it says the kingdom of the beast became full of darkness. The king of the symbolic locusts that came out of the pit had a king rule over them, whose name was the Destroyer (Satan). Locusts with power as scorpions, represent the false teachers under the spirit of the Antichrist that has been loosed as judgment upon the unfaithful church, and their power was to hurt all those who are not yet sealed in their foreheads. This means they can only cause this same spiritual torment, pain or anguish upon those who are are not saved or sealed (Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30). Spiritually speaking they are hurt by this judgment of strong delusion that God has brought upon them as judgment.

Revelation 9:5

• "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man."

This pain or torment is the power of the Scorpion, which is Satan. Satan is a spirit being causing spiritual hurt He's not literally commanding grasshoppers or physical predatory arthropods to sting people who have no mark. It's symbolism. God is speaking symbolically of the power that Satan has as an enemy of Christ. When God uses the locusts devouring the fruitful field, or the power of the Scorpion's sting, or the bite of the serpent to hurt those who are not sealed, it's symbolic terminology representing Satan's power. That's why Mark 16 says believers cannot be hurt by the serpent--because those who believe are sealed unto the day of redemption and cannot be hurt by serpents, Scorpions or locusts (Revelation 9:4). Even as Christ illustrated this "perfectly" in Luke 10 when He sent His witnesses out by two's and they came back saying the Devil as subject unto them. Or for example:

Luke 10:18-19

• "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
• Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

Here Christ is equating the power of Satan to the power of Scorpions and of Serpents, which is not surprising because Satan is identified/symbolized by the Serpent and Scorpion. He is saying nothing can hurt thse who are in Christ Jesus, not the sting of the scorpion nor the bite of the great serpent. In like mnner, in Revelation chapter 9 when God speaks of those locusts with the power to hurt as scorpions (but only those without the seal), it's referring to the power of the enemy, Satan. It's not literal vials sticking out of heaven, carried by angels, or physical sores, or literal scorpions, locusts, stars falling to earth (ridiculous) or a literal women sitting in heaven waiting to give birth, it's symbolism. Here where the pit is opened and locusts with the power of the Scorpion is symbolism of God sending those without the seal of redemption strong delusion, that they speak evil or blasphemy and be damned who would not believe the truth.

Ephesians 1:13-14

• "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
• Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

These are those who Revelation says cannot be hurt because they have this seal of promise in their foreheads. Obviously thus hurting is no more literal/physical than the sealing was. That's why God insisted that none of this could happen until ALL Israel was sealed (Revelation 7:3) or saved, only then could this judgment by God's messengers take place. Selah.

As for the length of 5 months, I believe that the 5 months represents "spiritually" the length of time from the loosing of the Antichrist spirit from the pit to the Second Coming of Christ. After all Israel has been saved, and after the testimony of the two witnesses has been finished, and all through this time the unfaithful are in pain, being tormented. But only those who don't have the seal of God in their foreheads, meaning only those who are not truly saved. It is at this time AFTER ALL Israel has been sealed, and so no one can become saved. It is in these days that people shall seek death (in Christ), and shall not find it (Romans 6:4), and shall desire to die (in Christ), and death shall flee from them. In other words, they will not be able to find salvation even if they desire for it! That is what the locusts with the power of the scripons can do to those people. Not literally, but spiritually. Selah!

 

[ewq1938]

No. Show me in Scripture where Satan was an archangel, literally. The word angel [anggelos] in Greek, means messenger, not angel as if he's a celestial being with feather wings.

The Greek word can mean a messenger or a heavenly angel.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Greek word can mean a messenger or a heavenly angel.

No. not heavenly "angels." Messengers. For example:

Romans 8:14
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

When you read, "sons of God," did you automatically think God was talking about angels in heaven? Or is is the spirits sent to minister to the children of God? You see, it is US (God's people as messengers) who are the ministering spirits, the sons of God!

Consider wisely

John 17:18-19

• "As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
• And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

Absolutely we are! Are we not all messengers (not angels) who are ministering spirits that are sent forth as servants to attend [diakonia] to them who shall be heirs of salvation (Hebrews 1:14)? Indeed we are! And we have been ministering to the nations concerning the salvation in Jesus Christ ever since.

Hebrews 6:9-10

• "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
• For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister."

It's our job or labor of love, as those who are sent in the Spirit of Christ to minister to the saints.

1st Thessalonians 3:2

• "And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:"

There is the example of the messenger, not your vision of angels, who is a ministering spirit sent by God to attend for them who shall be heirs of salvation. These are the messengers of whom Hebrews 1:14 is talking about. They are not the so-called angels. Which is why Christ warned us to:

1st John 4:1

• "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

And speaking of ministering spirits, we are also warned to beware of what type spirits that come because all are not sent by God. Some are sent by Satan, and are merely masquerading as messengers (not angels) who are ministers of light.

2nd Corinthians 11:14-15

• "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
• Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

The false messenger who appears as a minister righteousness, a messenger of light, in order to deceive. These are false ministering spirits appearing in the church (like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, etc. ) as true ministering spirits, of which God warns us not to believe every spirit. Try or prove them, and the way to do that is by the word of God! The way not to be deceived is to pay close attention to their authority. Is it the word of God or the words, traditions, and speculations of men?

...but I digress. The messengers who are true ministering spirits are those who are truly sent of God to evangelize. Not angels.

 

[Davy]

No, Satan will not be the beast-king.

Yes, Satan, the "dragon" which Rev.13:4-8 shows the whole world will worship, is coming to earth as the Antichrist/false-Messiah to JERUSALEM for the end of this world. And the deceived will worship him thinking he is God.

In Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.:

the mouth of the dragon
the mouth of the beast
the mouth of the false prophet.


Satan gives power to the beast. So Satan himself is not the beast.

Satan is the "another beast", a 2nd beast, per Rev.13:11. It's the beast-king role per Rev.17. In Matt.24:23-26; 2 Thess.2:4, and Rev.13:11, Satan is who that is pointing to that will work those great signs, wonders, and miracles on earth in the sight of men, raining fire down from heaven. You just don't realize it yet.

And if you try and claim that is not possible, then it means you don't believe a pretty big chunk of God's written Word about the ability of angels to appear on earth with the image of man.

the beast will be worshiped.
and also Satan will be worshiped.

How will Satan be worshiped ? Because when Satan is cast down to the earth, he will incarnate the statue image of the beast-king, making it appear to come alive and speak.

The false prophet then requires everyone to worship the Satan incarnated statue image of the beast-king.

Satan is... also the false prophet and beast (king). How can we know that? Simple. ONLY Satan and his angels to date have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire". No one else has. That has to mean the false prophet and beast of Rev.19:20 being destroyed PRIOR to the Great White Throne Judgement points to their being ROLES that the "dragon" will play.

I get tired of having to remind folks that per God's Word, none but Satan and his angels to date have already been judged and sentenced to perdition in the "lake of fire". No flesh born man has been judged to perish yet, not even Judas Iscariot.

I also get tired to having to remind brethren that there are TWO different 'beast' types taught in Revelation 13, a beast-kingdom and a beast-king.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The point by the other poster is they were to flee because of great tribulation.

Since that tribulation will include every human everywhere on earth, fleeing from tribulation is not the point.

Where did Jesus say that everyone in the world should flee? Nowhere. He was only talking about those in Judea needing to flee to the mountains in order to avoid the tribulation He talked about in Matthew 24:15-21 (Mark 13:14-19, Luke 21:20-24). Clearly, He was not referring to global tribulation when making that statement, so there is no basis for seeing the tribulation He spoke about in those verses as global tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

Satan is the "another beast", a 2nd beast, per Rev.13:11. It's the beast-king role per Rev.17. In Matt.24:23-26; 2 Thess.2:4, and Rev.13:11, Satan is who that is pointing to that will work those great signs, wonders, and miracles on earth in the sight of men, raining fire down from heaven. You just don't realize it yet.

Davy, the second beast in Revelation 13:11 who works the miracles is the false prophet.

Revelation 19: 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[ewq1938]

Davy, the second beast in Revelation 13:11 who works the miracles is the false prophet.

Revelation 19: 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Some people believe the FP is the AC and that satan might personally be that person, like an actor in a role. I believe that is possible, or that he simply possesses a person which is almost the same concept. Davy is correct that the first beast is a kingdom, and the second beast is the king of that kingdom.

 

[Jay Ross]

Easy. Revelation 20:1-3 is not about Satan being 'judged' and cast to the earth. Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced. Instead, Rev.20:1-3 is about Satan being put in chains and cast into his pit prison so as to not be able to deceive the nations for a thousand years. (That small part you got right.)

Revelation 12:7 forward is about Satan being cast out of heaven down to the earth with his angels, and is tied to the latter 3.5 years of the Dan.9:27 "one week" called the "great tribulation" by Jesus. And all those events are PRIOR to Rev.20. Rev.20:1-3 happens when Jesus returns.

And to say in 20 years that will happen is to try and do date setting for Christ's future return. No man knows the day or hour of Christ's future coming.

Your reference to Rev.20 about the time when Satan will establish himself as king over the nations is NOT about the future time after Jesus has returned. It is about the very 'end' of this present world before... Jesus returns.

Nor is the nation of Israel swept away (i.e., like some fake rapture) but the majority of them which still reject Jesus Christ will instead WORSHIP SATAN who is coming in place of Christ.

And your statement that the "thousand years" of Rev.20 is included in the Revelation 12:7-17 events is yet another one of your terrible fabrications away from the written Scripture.

Let me quote you in response: -

Really Funny! Not what God's Word says at all.

Davy, you have not provided any information that invalids what I had previously posted. Your understanding IMHO is flawed.

As for your claim that I was date setting for when Christ will return, is a fabrication on your part as Christ's return is still over 1,000 years plus the little while period into the future and as such you have created a false charge against what I had posted. That just demonstrates why you are so wrong on so many things concerning the End Times.

Goodbye.

 

[Douggg]

Some people believe the FP is the AC and that satan might personally be that person, like an actor in a role. I believe that is possible, or that he simply possesses a person which is almost the same concept. Davy is correct that the first beast is a kingdom, and the second beast is the king of that kingdom.

The first beast is both a kingdom and a king. The king of that kingdom is the mortally wounded, but healed, head.

The second beast is never said to be a king. The second beast performs miracles and is the false prophet spoken of in the rest of Revelation. i.e. in Revelation 16:13, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Davy, the second beast in Revelation 13:11 who works the miracles is the false prophet.

Revelation 19: 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

I agree. The description of the false prophet as doing miracles before the first beast which "deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image" is the same way the second beast is described.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Do people actually think that the second beast, who comes up out of the earth, is not mentioned at all after Revelation 13? Does it make any sense for the second beast to not be mentioned at all after that while the first beast is mentioned several times after that? No. So, is the second beast inexplicably not mentioned again after or is it mentioned using some other way than as "another beast coming up out of the earth"? The latter. The second beast is mentioned multiple times after Revelation 13 as you would expect, but it is referred to as "the false prophet" instead. That is clear when you compare the description of the second beast with the description of the false prophet.

So, the second beast is not Satan, as was claimed, since the second beast is the false prophet and the scripture clearly differentiates between the dragon and the false prophet. The dragon represents Satan and the second beast/false prophet represents something else.

 

[ewq1938]

The first beast is both a kingdom and a king. The king of that kingdom is the mortally wounded, but healed, head.

No, the first beast is solely a kingdom and it's only king is the second beast. The heads are not kings. They are mountains which is land rising above the waters.

The second beast is never said to be a king.

He is described as one which is the same.

The second beast performs miracles and is the false prophet spoken of in the rest of Revelation. i.e. in Revelation 16:13, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10.

Yes he is the false prophet, a counterfeit of our Lord which was also a prophet who performed miracles etc.