the Great Tribulation

[Behold]

Yes, I know and I've already acknowledged that. I don't dispute what 2 Thes 1.8-9 says at all. What I'm saying is that it does not render what Jesus said *to Israel*

God's wrath is not against a "group" its against unbelievers, according to 2 Thess 1:8-9

So, if the Grt Trib unbeliever is a Jew or a Gentile, its the same...>"Obeyed not the Gospel" = 2 Thess 1:8-9....coming for them.

and yes......the "time of the gentiles" ends, and that means that God is now again dealing specifically with the JEW, as He did in the OT...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Much of that is just speculation based from men's doctrines who do not understand God's Word when it comes to the seed of Israel.

Per man's word, which is usually lacking understanding, Israel represents a people fallen from God's grace and make up those who call theirselves Jews.

Per God's Word, the majority of the 'seed' of Israel are NOT Jews, but make up the ten lost tribes which God scattered mainly to the West and they became the Western Christian Nations of history, fulfilled the Genesis 48 prophecy of "multitude of nations" given about Ephraim's seed, the head of the ten northern tribes when God split old Israel in two kingdoms.

I'm not an advocate for Replacement Theology of any kind, and do not subscribe to the idea that Gentile People in the West, due to a smidgeon of Hebrew blood, can then be called "the lost tribes of Israel." This blurs the definition of ethnicity. And I don't believe that is what biblical prophecy meant when it spoke of Abraham or Israel becoming a multiplicity of "nations."

Abraham became spiritual father, and not physical father, of Gentile nations that became Christian. And when it is said that a particular nation or patriarch evolved, physically, into nations, the idea would be more of a splinter among his children than a redefinition of ethnicity.

Abraham was ethnic father of Ishmael's and Isaac's descendants who became distinct nations physically descended from Abraham. But Christian nations, such as Italy and France, became spiritual descendants of Abraham via the Gospel, and not by the definition of an ethnic group with a common biology.

Similarly, Israel evolved into several "nations," of sorts, when it became the Northern and Southern kingdoms. But they remained physically and ethnically related. When it is said that the nation of Israel would evolve into a multiplicity of nations, the intention may have been to refer to a multiplicity of "tribes," who would be of such size as to appear as actual distinct "nations."

In other words, in evolving towards a unified Israeli nation, each tribe would become so large as to nearly consist of a nation on its own. But this did not at all suggest that the separate tribes had become physically diverse from one another in the same way Gentile nations are physically different from the Hebrew people. We certainly have different views in this regard...

 

[grafted branch]

When the last 3.5 years begin(only the FATHER knows when the EXACT Time begins) the LORD will shorten "those days" and no one will know but the LORD.

Alright, then if that is true we know we can’t trust any scripture that declares an amount of time. You can’t have a 3.5 year period declared and then change it. That idea is described in Daniel 7:25 and think to change times and laws.

 

[Davidpt]

If you have the great multitude of Gentiles in Revelation 7:9 being saved during the 42 months of the Revelation 13 beast then you are essentially saying the beast is responsible for the greatest evangelical movement ever. That doesn’t make sense, the greatest Gentile evangelical movement happened in the first century.

What are you meaning when you say---If you have the great multitude of Gentiles in Revelation 7:9 being saved during the 42 months of the Revelation 13 beast?

I'm not a Pretribber Dispy that thinks a rapture precedes the 42 month reign and that it then equaling those left behind becoming saved during this 42 month reign. That is not my view. My view is that they are already saved before the 42 month reign even begins. And because they are already saved, it then leads to the martyring of many of them because they will refuse to worship the image of the beast.

What you and I both need to keep in mind is this, more you than me, the fact you think Revelation 7:9 & 14 can somehow logically fit the first century.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Meaning this----a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues

There has to be millions, if not billions, meant here. And you would have us believe something profoundly absurd, that there were millions, maybe even billions, of martyrs during the first century?

As to my view, how many ppl are currently on this planet? Apparently, around 8 billion. Wonder how many of those might be professed Christians? The consensus seems to be maybe 2.4 billion. Assuming that might be correct, or at least close, then assuming the following is still future---and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed(Revelation 13:15)---and that this leads to at least half of the professed Christians on the earth being martyred during this 42 months, as an example, already this would be agreeing with an amount of martyrs no man can number.

The text doesn't say these martyrs can't be numbered. It says no man can number them. Meaning to me that no man is going to stand there and try and count them all one by one until he has managed to count them all.

As an example, assuming the following is correct or at least close.

-----------------------------------------
How long would it take to count to 1 billion? Too long! Counting to 1 billion nonstop would take almost 32 years.

NCU Home - Navigator Credit Union

navigatorcu.org

-----------------------------

No wonder the text says a great multitude no man can number.

Between your proposed scenario and mine, at least mine can fit this---a great multitude, which no man could number. Yours certainly can't, not even remotely. And here you are insisting that my proposed scenario makes no sense and that---a great multitude, which no man could number--fits the first century better. LOL. :) I for sure needed a good laugh this morning even if my proposed scenario also doesn't fully explain a great multitude, which no man could number. At least what I'm proposing is thousands of times more reasonable than what you are proposing. Or better yet, what you are proposing is not reasonable, period.

 

[ScottA]

Well, that's an interesting way of looking at it. I may not agree with it, but it's certainly a novel and interesting approach to the "great tribulation!" It does seem that Christ's terrible suffering in death was intended to be associated with Israel's terrible suffering under the judgment of national sin.

More than just Israel's suffering, but indeed, that of all.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Daniel 12
8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Hi Randy my friend when do you think Daniel rose?

Matthew told us when.

Matthew 27
50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Hi Marty, I'm not really sure what you're suggesting? I don't think Daniel was resurrected at the tearing of the veil when Jesus died, if that's what you mean? I personally believe these were Jewish believers who had just recently died and simply returned to life as Lazarus had. I don't think the departed saints from of old will be raised until the 1st Resurrection mentioned in Rev 20.

With respect to Dan 12 and its reference to the "time of the end," I'm not sure if the reference is to the end of the age, as we see it today, or to the time of the end of the events involving Antiochus 4? It appears that God is just telling Daniel that inquiry further into what the meaning of his prophecies were for himself was futile since they were largely given to give an overall sketch of Israel's future, applying only in distant or future generations.

1 Pet 1.12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

My view of Dan 12, the chapter, is different than many here--it is based on Barton's "Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy." I suggest that there is not just a single scenario being mentioned in ch. 12, but rather, 2 main events that sort of summarize the important events coming up on God's prophetic calendar. Daniel was inquiring about all the things he was told, but he was told some of it was not for him nor for his own generation.

Rather, he was to focus on these 2 particular coming events, Antiochus 4 for 1290 days and and the Antichrist for 3.5 years. And he was to see them in light of the entire span of history as he had been shown in Nebuchadnezzar's Dream and in his own Dream (Dan 7).

The 4th Kingdom, which I believe to be Rome. would emerge after Antiochus 4. But at the end of the age, Rome will have split into an empire of 10 prominent European nations headed by the Antichrist, who would reign for "a time, times, and half a time," ie 3.5 years. These 2 events are both treated in Dan 12, but are, I believe, separate events. The 3.5 years refer to Antichrist's reign, and the 1290 days to Antiochus' reign. Both were future to Daniel and were therefore beyond the scope of his understanding.

I'm not sure how you would see these things as a Partial Preterist, but we remain of one spirit. And I do thank the Preterists for their focus, in the Olivet Discourse, on the 70 AD event. Seeing this is critical, in my view, to understanding what Jesus was saying for the future of Judaism.

 

[grafted branch]

What are you meaning when you say---If you have the great multitude of Gentiles in Revelation 7:9 being saved during the 42 months of the Revelation 13 beast?

I'm not a Pretribber Dispy that thinks a rapture precedes the 42 month reign and that it then equaling those left behind becoming saved during this 42 month reign. That is not my view. My view is that they are already saved before the 42 month reign even begins. And because they are already saved, it then leads to the martyring of many of them because they will refuse to worship the image of the beast.

What you and I both need to keep in mind is this, more you than me, the fact you think Revelation 7:9 & 14 can somehow logically fit the first century.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Meaning this----a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues

There has to be millions, if not billions, meant here. And you would have us believe something profoundly absurd, that there were millions, maybe even billions, of martyrs during the first century?

As to my view, how many ppl are currently on this planet? Apparently, around 8 billion. Wonder how many of those might be professed Christians? The consensus seems to be maybe 2.4 billion. Assuming that might be correct, or at least close, then assuming the following is still future---and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed(Revelation 13:15)---and that this leads to at least half of the professed Christians on the earth being martyred during this 42 months, as an example, already this would be agreeing with an amount of martyrs no man can number.

The text doesn't say these martyrs can't be numbered. It says no man can number them. Meaning to me that no man is going to stand there and try and count them all one by one until he has managed to count them all.

Between your proposed scenario and mine, at least mine can fit this---a great multitude, which no man could number. Yours certainly can't, not even remotely. And here you are insisting that my proposed scenario makes no sense and that---a great multitude, which no man could number--fits the first century better. LOL. :) I for sure needed a good laugh this morning even if my proposed scenario also doesn't fully explain a great multitude, which no man could number. At least what I'm proposing is thousands of times more reasonable than what you are proposing. Or better yet, what you are proposing is not reasonable, period.

The Revelation 7 multitude comes out of, or is a result of, the fall of Israel as seen in Romans 11. I’m not trying to say that the vision John saw in Revelation 7 was a depiction of heaven in the year 70AD.

The text doesn't say these martyrs can't be numbered. It says no man can number them. Meaning to me that no man is going to stand there and try and count them all one by one until he has managed to count them all.

The text doesn’t say the multitude was martyred it says the came out of great tribulation. My view has them being a result of tribulation coming upon Israel and your view has them being martyred during a 42 month reign of the beast. Again this makes the beast a hero of sorts because now they can reign with Christ during the millennium.

Think about this, if your view is correct then all the beast would have to do is set up a martyr clinic where believers could come in, declare their allegiance to Christ, receive an anesthetic, and have their head chopped off. The beast could, without any struggle convince believers to voluntarily be killed and enjoy reigning with Christ during the millennium, as that would be seen as a much preferred way of dying. The beast could declare that if you didn’t voluntarily go to a martyr clinic then he won’t kill you, so you won’t be reigning during the millennium.

Just think about it, people have the ability to anticipate the actions of others, the beast would be no different.

 

[David in NJ]

Alright, then if that is true we know we can’t trust any scripture that declares an amount of time. You can’t have a 3.5 year period declared and then change it. That idea is described in Daniel 7:25 and think to change times and laws.

Time = Years, Months, Days, Hours and Seconds BELONG to the FATHER.

Matt 24:36 - “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

Acts 1:7 - "And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority."

1 Thess 1:10 - "to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

 

[Marty fox]

Hi Marty, I'm not really sure what you're suggesting? I don't think Daniel was resurrected at the tearing of the veil when Jesus died, if that's what you mean? I personally believe these were Jewish believers who had just recently died and simply returned to life as Lazarus had. I don't think the departed saints from of old will be raised until the 1st Resurrection mentioned in Rev 20.

With respect to Dan 12 and its reference to the "time of the end," I'm not sure if the reference is to the end of the age, as we see it today, or to the time of the end of the events involving Antiochus 4? It appears that God is just telling Daniel that inquiry further into what the meaning of his prophecies were for himself was futile since they were largely given to give an overall sketch of Israel's future, applying only in distant or future generations.

1 Pet 1.12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

My view of Dan 12, the chapter, is different than many here--it is based on Barton's "Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy." I suggest that there is not just a single scenario being mentioned in ch. 12, but rather, 2 main events that sort of summarize the important events coming up on God's prophetic calendar. Daniel was inquiring about all the things he was told, but he was told some of it was not for him nor for his own generation.

Rather, he was to focus on these 2 particular coming events, Antiochus 4 for 1290 days and and the Antichrist for 3.5 years. And he was to see them in light of the entire span of history as he had been shown in Nebuchadnezzar's Dream and in his own Dream (Dan 7).

The 4th Kingdom, which I believe to be Rome. would emerge after Antiochus 4. But at the end of the age, Rome will have split into an empire of 10 prominent European nations headed by the Antichrist, who would reign for "a time, times, and half a time," ie 3.5 years. These 2 events are both treated in Dan 12, but are, I believe, separate events. The 3.5 years refer to Antichrist's reign, and the 1290 days to Antiochus' reign. Both were future to Daniel and were therefore beyond the scope of his understanding.

I'm not sure how you would see these things as a Partial Preterist, but we remain of one spirit. And I do thank the Preterists for their focus, in the Olivet Discourse, on the 70 AD event. Seeing this is critical, in my view, to understanding what Jesus was saying for the future of Judaism.

Thanks Randy and yes I am suggesting that Daniel was raised when Jesus died and rose to think of it why would he not off if others did?

Jesus concurred death and freed the captive souls

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thanks Randy and yes I am suggesting that Daniel was raised when Jesus died and rose to think of it why would he not off if others did?

Jesus concurred death and freed the captive souls

We're not really told much about it, so we're on our own with respect to interpretation. Your view is as good as mine.

I'm just thinking logically that bodies physically rose, which would not be likely if the bodies had long ago disintegrated. So recent deaths, like Lazarus, seem like likely candidates.

This appears to simply be a sign of the validity of Christ's death and future resurrection, to confirm that a new covenant was in place that evades death. But thanks for your view on this.

 

[grafted branch]

Time = Years, Months, Days, Hours and Seconds BELONG to the FATHER.

Matt 24:36 - “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

Acts 1:7 - "And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority."

1 Thess 1:10 - "to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

Sure, look at Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Now look at Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts ishis name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Are the ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars which are for days and years before God or not?

 

[Randy Kluth]

In that case, does the resurrection spoken of to Daniel only apply to Israel?

No, Israel was given to be a kind of "1st born" of God, to be a model for all the nations of the world that God has called to be His possession.

I think Paul called a "mystery" the fact that somehow what was promised to Israel's believers would be applied to pagans outside of God's covenant of Law. Christ was the uniting element between Jewish believers under the old covenant and Gentile believers under the new covenant.

He was the answer as to how God would work it out, transferring promises made to Israel under the old covenant to the international Church who had come to God now under the new covenant. 2 bodies that had been distinctly separated were now viewed as intimately linked and in fact, united as one.

 

[David in NJ]

Sure, look at Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Now look at Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts ishis name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Are the ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars which are for days and years before God or not?

AWESOME TRUTH = Thank You

Now follow the Way, the Truth and the Life who says:

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

[grafted branch]

AWESOME TRUTH = Thank You

Now follow the Way, the Truth and the Life who says:

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

It’s good to know we are in agreement on some things. Let’s look at the days being shortened.

Let’s say as an example, 5 days of tribulation are scheduled for Monday through Friday and this tribulation was to be executed by an individual. Then an announcement is made that the days of tribulation will be shortened. That tribulation could start on Monday and end on Wednesday or that tribulation could start on Wednesday and end on Friday. In both cases the days are shortened.

If the individual that was scheduled to execute the tribulation was detained or bound in some way then it would be most likely that the tribulation was delayed or shortened by it not starting when it could’ve, as scheduled.

Now let’s look at the Daniel 9:27 statement “for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate”. This tribulation could’ve happened just after the cross but it was delayed because Satan was bound from using his right to deceive the nations to destroy Jerusalem. That is to say the days were shortened to allow the Gospel to be preached, for the elect’s sake, else no flesh would be saved.

 

[David in NJ]

It’s good to know we are in agreement on some things. Let’s look at the days being shortened.

Let’s say as an example, 5 days of tribulation are scheduled for Monday through Friday and this tribulation was to be executed by an individual. Then an announcement is made that the days of tribulation will be shortened. That tribulation could start on Monday and end on Wednesday or that tribulation could start on Wednesday and end on Friday. In both cases the days are shortened.

If the individual that was scheduled to execute the tribulation was detained or bound in some way then it would be most likely that the tribulation was delayed or shortened by it not starting when it could’ve, as scheduled.

Now let’s look at the Daniel 9:27 statement “for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate”. This tribulation could’ve happened just after the cross but it was delayed because Satan was bound from using his right to deceive the nations to destroy Jerusalem. That is to say the days were shortened to allow the Gospel to be preached, for the elect’s sake, else no flesh would be saved.

Satan has never been bound from deceiving the nations.
He will be bound at the LORD's Second Coming and he will be locked up and sealed = at the Second Coming of Christ = Revelation ch20

"Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.
But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen." - 1 Peter

 

[Davidpt]

Alright, then if that is true we know we can’t trust any scripture that declares an amount of time. You can’t have a 3.5 year period declared and then change it. That idea is described in Daniel 7:25 and think to change times and laws.

Spot on! Something I agree with you about then.

In my mind the way they are shortened is like such. An X amount of days is already allotted for great tribulation. No more and no less. Because if these things were allowed to continue indefinitely it would ultimately result in this before it was over---there should no flesh be saved.

Let's face it. 3.5 years of great tribulation as opposed to 10 years of great tribulation, for example, the former would fit shortened since it wouldn't be permitted to continue beyond 3.5 years.

 

[grafted branch]

Satan has never been bound from deceiving the nations.
He will be bound at the LORD's Second Coming and he will be locked up and sealed = at the Second Coming of Christ = Revelation ch20

"Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.
But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen." - 1 Peter

Satan was bound in Babylon at that time.

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Revelation 18:2 Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Satan was walking about as a roaring lion seeking who he may devour in Babylon where he was caged.

 

[Davidpt]

Satan was bound in Babylon at that time.

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Revelation 18:2 Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Satan was walking about as a roaring lion seeking who he may devour in Babylon where he was caged.

That's not the way I might interpret that verse, meaning Revelation 18:2. I tend to take it to mean that Babylon the great is initially something good, but no longer good because now it has become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird, thus it is fallen. If Babylon the great was never anything good to begin with, what is the logic in something already no good then it becomes fallen? That only makes sense if Babylon the great was something good initially but no longer is. Therefore, this has zero to do with anyone being bound there, as in this maybe fits satan's 1000 years being bound in the pit.

Whatever the bottomless pit is, it can't be anything that was initially good then changed to something bad eventually. But Babylon the great can be, since Babylon the great is not meaning the bottomless pit.

 

[David in NJ]

That's not the way I might interpret that verse, meaning Revelation 18:2. I tend to take it to mean that Babylon the great is initially something good, but no longer good because now it has become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird, thus it is fallen. If Babylon the great was never anything good to begin with, what is the logic in something already no good then it becomes fallen? That only makes sense if Babylon the great was something good initially but no longer is. Therefore, this has zero to do with anyone being bound there, as in this maybe fits satan's 1000 years being bound in the pit.

Whatever the bottomless pit is, it can't be anything that was initially good then changed to something bad eventually. But Babylon the great can be, since Babylon the great is not meaning the bottomless pit.

Satan was bound in Babylon at that time.

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Revelation 18:2 Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Satan was walking about as a roaring lion seeking who he may devour in Babylon where he was caged.

There does not exist a single scripture stating that Satan is CURRENTLY "bound and locked up in prison".

Revelation chapter 20 will not occur at anytime PRIOR to the Second Coming of Christ.

Matthew ch24, 1 Thess ch2, 1 John ch2 & ch3 and Revelation chapter 19 all CONFIRM this.

 

[grafted branch]

There does not exist a single scripture stating that Satan is CURRENTLY "bound and locked up in prison".

Revelation chapter 20 will not occur at anytime PRIOR to the Second Coming of Christ.

Matthew ch24, 1 Thess ch2, 1 John ch2 & ch3 and Revelation chapter 19 all CONFIRM this.

So when will Satan be caged in Babylon? During the millennium?