Where does the Pope get his authority?

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Behold

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Where in the Bible does it say that the Apostles were NOT baptized? (It doesn't.)

I need you to pay attention.

Ok?

See, in John 20:22, that you posted....it says that JESUS gave the Apostles, (11) the Holy Spirit.
They were not water baptized, and that is not going to change in the NT, no matter how many times you try to add "baptismal regeneration" to the verse, as its NOT THERE..

Then..

LATER...... you have Acts 2:38...

This came AFTER John 20:22.....and Peter received "Power", and "the gift of Tongues"........He then preached, and many were saved.

He was not water baptized before he Preached......and also, all those in the Upper Room, were not water baptized, and they all were filled with the Spirit of God, and received the Spiritual Gift of Tongues.

So, that is 2x, in the NT, that the "Holy Spirit" was given to BELIEVERS, and in both cases none were water baptized and in one case they "received the Gift of the Spirit", also.

Now you can try to add water, as the "Cult of the Virgin" demands, but that is you adding it, and your Denomination... as its not in those Verses. (Because it didn't happen).
 

Peterlag

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Where in the Bible does it say that the Apostles were NOT baptized? (It doesn't.) Where in the Bible does it say that EVERYTHING Jesus said and did, and the Apostles experienced, is IN the Bible? (It doesn't. In fact, it says the opposite. John 21:25)

Your context of Sola Scriptura leads you into these errors. Jesus didn't write a book to spread His truths. He founded a (ONE) Church to do so, giving it His authority to teach, preach, govern, and sanctify. This Church wrote the New Testament and in the late 4th century, set the canon for the Bible.
Catholics do not understand the Scriptures. They cannot put it together and make sense out of it. Whenever they hit a wall they say it's a mystery. There's no mystery and there's no water baptizing that was for any purpose other than something John did for Israel only during his lifetime and only for about 6 months. It has nothing to do with Christians and a red flag on that is that the Catholics teach it and they have never been right about anything.
 

Athanasius377

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You agree that in 80AD the Corinthian church looked to Rome (Clement) for guidance, which means Rome and Corinth weren't equals. Historically we know that in the early Church Clements letters were considered Scripture and were read aloud at church services alongside Matthew, Mark, Luke John etc. That would also show Clement (Rome) was held in very high regard and he was considered equal in teaching to the Apostles.

Yes, I agree. It is also possible that the church in Corinth was simply unable to resolve their controversy themselves and looked for outside help, perhaps Clement as I see Clement the author of the epistle and Clement in Philippians and a friend of Paul. Which would make sense as Paul founded the Church in Corinth. And yes parts of the church may have considered 1 Clement scripture as the book was known to be bound with other books that are in the present day Bible. However, we are not certain how widespread or exactly how authoritative it was compared to, say the Gospels. Also, the date that I have seen is 96AD during the reign of Domitian.

Also Clement uses the terms episcapoi and presbyteroi interchangeably. I’m editing this on a phone so give me some rope for not including the Greek terms. So while you can make the argument that there is a sense of primacy of the Church of Rome in the epistle, I don’t think you can do the same for a monarchical bishop of Rome.

Thirty years later in 110AD Ignatius says of the Church in Rome, others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force.




Ye have never envied any one; ye have taught others. Now I desire that those things may be confirmed [by your conduct], which in your instructions ye enjoin [on others]. Only request in my behalf both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but [truly] will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. For if I be truly found [a Christian], I may also be called one, and be then deemed faithful, when I shall no longer appear to the world.

Ignatius of Antioch. “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans.” The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, edited by Alexander Roberts et al., vol. 1, Christian Literature Company, 1885, p. 74.

It seems to me in my reading of the epistle that the Roman church was teaching about suffering and hardship and is now asking that they do nothing to contradict their teaching.

Thirty years later in 140AD in the Hermas letter it suggest that Rome is in charge of the Church: in this city (Rome) along with the presbyters who are in charge of the Church”


The quote is:

So, when I shall complete all the words, with your help they will be made known to all the elect. 3 Write, then, two small booklets, one for Clement and one for Grapte. Clement will then send it to the cities abroad since this is his duty, and Grapte will instruct the widows and orphans. But you shall read it to this city together with the Presbyters, who are in charge of the church.’


Marique, Joseph M. F. “The Shepherd of Hermas.” The Apostolic Fathers, translated by Francis X. Glimm et al., vol. 1, The Catholic University of America Press, 1947, p. 242.


I don't see anything about Rome here, but I do see that Rome (the location the author if indeed Hermas) is run by Presbyters and not a monarchial episcopate at this time. Also, if the Clement mentioned in the Shephard is in fact the same Clement as the author of 1 Clement that would put the dating in the 90's AD.

Dionysius in 170AD and Irenaeus in 189AD support Rome primacy. How can you not see Rome, which means the bishop OF Rome, as having primacy?
Irenænus certainly believes it. As to Dionysius I am assuming you mean Dionysius of Corinth? I haven't read his letters just the summary Eusebius gives us in his Ecclesiastical History. By that time there seems to be a functioning monarchial episcopate in Rome. It is my reading that the office of a monarchial bishop in the Roman church was a development and wasn’t there from the very beginning. A development that occurred in Antioch before it occurred in Rome.

The issue I see is that you are taking a later development and reading it back into history.
 
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Augustin56

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I need you to pay attention.

Ok?

See, in John 20:22, that you posted....it says that JESUS gave the Apostles, (11) the Holy Spirit.
They were not water baptized, and that is not going to change in the NT, no matter how many times you try to add "baptismal regeneration" to the verse, as its NOT THERE..

Then..

LATER...... you have Acts 2:38...

This came AFTER John 20:22.....and Peter received "Power", and "the gift of Tongues"........He then preached, and many were saved.

He was not water baptized before he Preached......and also, all those in the Upper Room, were not water baptized, and they all were filled with the Spirit of God, and received the Spiritual Gift of Tongues.

So, that is 2x, in the NT, that the "Holy Spirit" was given to BELIEVERS, and in both cases none were water baptized and in one case they "received the Gift of the Spirit", also.

Now you can try to add water, as the "Cult of the Virgin" demands, but that is you adding it, and your Denomination... as its not in those Verses. (Because it didn't happen).
I see you still aren't comprehending very well. I don't blame you. I blame our failed educational system.

Anyway, quoting John 20:22 does NOT, in any way, say that the Apostles were never baptized. The NT does NOT say that it contains EVERYTHING we are to know or that Jesus taught or did. It says the opposite. See John 21:25 that says:

There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

If all you have is the Bible to go by, then you don't have access to the fullness of truth, even if your personal interpretation of Scripture was 100%, which it clearly is not.
Catholics do not understand the Scriptures. They cannot put it together and make sense out of it. Whenever they hit a wall they say it's a mystery. There's no mystery and there's no water baptizing that was for any purpose other than something John did for Israel only during his lifetime and only for about 6 months. It has nothing to do with Christians and a red flag on that is that the Catholics teach it and they have never been right about anything.
LOL. I appreciate your sense of humor, Peter.

But it was the Catholic Church that wrote the New Testament. Why wouldn't the Catholic Church understand it. Would it be more accurate, though, to say that the Catholic Church just doesn't agree with your personal iterpretation of Scripture? I think we can agree with that. Or are you claimig to be an infallible interpreter of Scripture?
 
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Peterlag

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I see you still aren't comprehending very well. I don't blame you. I blame our failed educational system.

Anyway, quoting John 20:22 does NOT, in any way, say that the Apostles were never baptized. The NT does NOT say that it contains EVERYTHING we are to know or that Jesus taught or did. It says the opposite. See John 21:25 that says:

There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

If all you have is the Bible to go by, then you don't have access to the fullness of truth, even if your personal interpretation of Scripture was 100%, which it clearly is not.

LOL. I appreciate your sense of humor, Peter.

But it was the Catholic Church that wrote the New Testament. Why wouldn't the Catholic Church understand it. Would it be more accurate, though, to say that the Catholic Church just doesn't agree with your personal iterpretation of Scripture? I think we can agree with that. Or are you claimig to be an infallible interpreter of Scripture?
Everything I teach is the exact opposite of what the Catholics teach. I believe I'm correct and therefore the Catholics must be wrong. In fact, I can't find one thing they have ever been right about. And the Catholics did not write the New Testament. It was written by Paul. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is not the New Testament and once again the religious world thinks it is for only one reason. Catholics.
 

Behold

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I see you still aren't comprehending very well. I don't blame you. I blame our failed educational system.

The Bible (NT) is not your final authority, so, this is why you are not really familiar with it. @Augustin56
See, you post verses, based on Catholic Theology, as if that is "Bible"

Its not. Its "cult of the virgin" theology... known as "Church Fathers wrote"...

This is why when you post verses, you didn't use the Bible, to compare scripture with scripture, as Paul teaches Christians to do, so that the interpretation of the word of God, is BIBLE (Holy Spirit)... based, and not..>"what my Catholic denomination taught me to teach that the church fathers wrote, that im here to repeat.".
 

Augustin56

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The Bible (NT) is not your final authority, so, this is why you are not really familiar with it. @Augustin56
See, you post verses, based on Catholic Theology, as if that is "Bible"

Its not. Its "cult of the virgin" theology... known as "Church Fathers wrote"...

This is why when you post verses, you didn't use the Bible, to compare scripture with scripture, as Paul teaches Christians to do, so that the interpretation of the word of God, is BIBLE (Holy Spirit)... based, and not..>"what my Catholic denomination taught me to teach that the church fathers wrote, that im here to repeat.".
Well, clearly the Bible is NOT your final authority. You are. You place your own personal interpretation above that of the Church founded by Christ that wrote the NT and set the canon for the Bible. VERY distinctive difference!
 

Behold

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I'm just not seeing it in these verses.

Paul wrote... "study to show yourself approved unto GOD..""

That's the #1 reason we study...

There was no Pope, no "cult of Mary" no Calvinism, nothing but the Scriptures, that Paul said to "study".

Later, Paul's letters, became the Church doctrine, and we are to study that, so that we become grounded.....

Why?

Because the word of God, is God's Spirit as verses.. and when we discern the verses, we are engaging the Knowledge of God.. and when we do this perfectly, all the time we have become this..

Paul teaches..."As many as BE Perfect"...

How do to that?

"The word of God is spiritually discerned"..

The word of God, is not linear, its Spiritual, is revelation, its LIGHT for Life...

The Spirit of God, in the Born again, has inner eyes.......defined by Paul as " the eyes of your heart" and that is where the discerning happens.

Paul teaches...

"The eyes of your heart" be ENLIGHTENED... and that is to receive the revelation of the word, and that is not reading it.. that is spiritual discernment, as the "word of God is SPIRITUALLY Discerned".


A.) """
rightly dividing the word of Truth". ,is the "get the REVELATION">
 

Behold

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Well, clearly the Bible is NOT your final authority.

I only teach Paul's Doctrine.

I use no commentaries, i quote no church fathers, i dont cut and paste my posts or my Threads.
My Church is Messianic, but that is not a denomination. Its just a "local body of mostly Jewish Believers".. same as "the church at Corinth'", etc.

The CHURCH is where the BORN AGAIN gather to worship God and Christ and learn some BIBLE., and fellowship.

It can be 2 or 200,000 at a time... anywhere they are gathered.

Paul's Doctrine, is simply the Doctrine of Paul. as found in his 13 epistles.... and that is "Church Doctrine".

You place your own personal interpretation above that of the Church founded by Christ that wrote the NT and set the canon for the Bible.

Did you actually just post that the "Cult of the Virgin" wrote the NT?

That is hilarious..

Incredible that you could believe it.

There are 27 NT books and not even ONE of them was written by a CATHOLIC>.

And the one your "cult of Mary" "cult of the virgin" falsely defined as Pope 1, .. Here is what Paul said about him..

"He walked not uprightly according to the TRUTH".., at least once.

See that?

That is the person who wrote all the Church Doctrine.........describing your 1st Pope..

Get a bible sometime, a NT, and read all about that.... SCENE.
 
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Augustin56

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I only teach Paul's Doctrine.

I use no commentaries, i quote no church fathers, i dont cut and paste my posts or my Threads.
My Church is Messianic, but that is not a denomination. Its just a "local body of mostly Jewish Believers".. same as "the church at Corinth'", etc.

The CHURCH is where the BORN AGAIN gather to worship God and Christ and learn some BIBLE., and fellowship.

It can be 2 or 200,000 at a time... anywhere they are gathered.

Paul's Doctrine, is simply the Doctrine of Paul. as found in his 13 epistles.... and that is "Church Doctrine".



Did you actually just post that the "Cult of the Virgin" wrote the NT?

That is hilarious..

Incredible that you could believe it.

There are 27 NT books and not even ONE of them was written by a CATHOLIC>.

And the one your "cult of Mary" "cult of the virgin" falsely defined as Pope 1, .. Here is what Paul said about him..

"He walked not uprightly according to the TRUTH".., at least once.

See that?

That is the person who wrote all the Church Doctrine.........describing your 1st Pope..

Get a bible sometime, a NT, and read all about that.... SCENE.
You know, when the serpent (Satan) was tempting Eve in the Garden of Eden, he asked her if God said that they could not eat of ANY of the fruit in the garden. She said, no God only said they couldn't eat of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, because if they did, they would surely die. The serpent then told her that no, they would certainly not die if they ate of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, but they would become like God, being able to choose for themselves what is right and wrong.

Sounds like that's the path you're on. Rather than listen to the Church founded by Christ, who promised to guard His Church from ever teaching doctrinal error in her doctrines, you want to reinvent the theological wheel yourself, deciding for yourself what is true and what is not. In other words, you want to be your own god. I would be worried if I were you.
 

Peterlag

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The Bible (NT) is not your final authority, so, this is why you are not really familiar with it. @Augustin56
See, you post verses, based on Catholic Theology, as if that is "Bible"

Its not. Its "cult of the virgin" theology... known as "Church Fathers wrote"...

This is why when you post verses, you didn't use the Bible, to compare scripture with scripture, as Paul teaches Christians to do, so that the interpretation of the word of God, is BIBLE (Holy Spirit)... based, and not..>"what my Catholic denomination taught me to teach that the church fathers wrote, that im here to repeat.".
You write well.
 

Athanasius377

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The 11 Apostles received the Holy Spirit and none of then were baptized in water...., not before or after they received it from JESUS.... John 20:22

(Did you want to add that to the verse), @Augustin56 ?

And if you try to use Acts 2:38, you'll find that Peter was given #9 Spiritual Gift (Paul's List) and again he was not water baptized.

So, now you have Peter receiving the Holy Spirit and "receiving the Gift of Tongues".. and no water baptism, unless you pretend it happened.
And you have to pretend it happened.., as the "Cult of Mary" teaches that this can't happen to their First POPE.... without that WATER WATER WATER....
I find this argument to be absurd on its face. Andrew and an unknown disciple, (likey John the beloved disciple) were followers of John the Baptist. The left John to follow Jesus. So let make sure I understand your argument. Are you are stating that these two disciples of John THE BAPTIST and who were following around John THE BAPTIST were not water baptized? cf John 1:35-42.
 

RedFan

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I find this argument to be absurd on its face. Andrew and an unknown disciple, (likey John the beloved disciple) were followers of John the Baptist. The left John to follow Jesus. So let make sure I understand your argument. Are you are stating that these two disciples of John THE BAPTIST and who were following around John THE BAPTIST were not water baptized? cf John 1:35-42.
I don't know how many of the original apostles were water baptized. Nobody does. Scripture is silent on the point. So why bother to argue over it? Let's just concede that we don't know if it was none of them, two of them, six of them, twelve of them, whatever. Let's move on.
 

Jude Thaddeus

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I only teach Paul's Doctrine...

...Paul's Doctrine, is simply the Doctrine of Paul. as found in his 13 epistles.... and that is "Church Doctrine".
Agreed. It hasn't changed, it developed, never deviating from the essence of Paul's doctrine. The evidence is there for anyone who wishes to see it.

It is incorrect to regard St. Paul as some kind of spiritual “lone ranger,” on his own with no particular ecclesiastical allegiance, since he was commissioned by Jesus Himself as an Apostle.

-In his very conversion experience, Jesus informed Paul that he would be told what to do (Acts 9:6; cf. 9:17).
-He went to see St. Peter in Jerusalem for fifteen days in order to be confirmed in his calling (Galatians 1:18), and
- fourteen years later was commissioned by Peter, James, and John (Galatians 2:1-2, 9).
- He was also sent out by the Church at Antioch (Acts 13:1-4), which was in contact with the Church at Jerusalem (Acts 11:19-27). Later on, Paul reported back to Antioch (Acts 14:26-28)
- Acts 15:2 states: “. . . Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.” The next verse refers to Paul and Barnabas “being sent on their way by the church.”
- Paul did what he was told to do by the Jerusalem Council (where he played no huge role), and Paul and Barnabas were sent off, or commissioned by the council (15:22-27), and shared its binding teachings in their missionary journeys: “. . . delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem” (Acts 16:4).
Paul accepted its authority and proclaimed its teachings (Acts 16:4).

The Jerusalem Council certainly regarded its teachings as infallible, and guided by the Holy Spirit Himself. (a condition for infallibility)

Furthermore, Paul appears to be passing on his office to Timothy (1 Tim 6:20; 2 Tim 1:6, 13-14; 2 Tim 4:1-6), and tells him to pass his office along, in turn (2 Tim 2:1-2) which would be another indication of apostolic succession in the Bible, that you have been trained to reject. o_O

The attempt to pretend that St. Paul was somehow on his own, disconnected to the institutional Church, has always failed, as unbiblical. It's a man made tradition not found in the Bible. Bible cults frown upon institutions, but we Catholics rather like the Church that Jesus Christ set up, initially led by St. Peter.*

QUESTION:
if you agree that Paul was commissioned as an apostle “by Jesus Himself” then does he derive his apostleship from Jesus or from Peter?

ANSWER:
Both. Why do you feel compelled to make a choice? It’s the usual Protestant “either/or” dichotomous mentality. Calvin does the same thing repeatedly. Matt Slick is worse.

Did you actually just post that the "Cult of the Virgin" wrote the NT?
Why do you worship the Cookie Monster? Please post like an adult and use the quote feature so we know you are not lying.
That is hilarious..

Incredible that you could believe it.
It's incredible you dogmatize stupid insults, and make a fool of yourself in the process.
There are 27 NT books and not even ONE of them was written by a CATHOLIC>.
The 27 NT books were preserved, compiled, ratified and proclaimed by Catholic bishops. Did you finish high school? Have you heard of Google?

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Romans 1:7 KJV To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.​
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;​
The Greek word for " throughout the whole world. " is kata holos. Romans 1:8
Later Latinized to "Catholicus"
From Latin to English is translated as "Catholic".
Later Latinized to "Catholicus"
The Latin to English is translated as "Catholic".
Paul is using Catholic as an adjective phrase meaning universal. That's what Catholic means
Ignatius uses "Catholic" as a noun, not separating the Church from Christ, and neither did Paul. "Saul', Saul, why do you persecute Me?" Did Jesus appear in Damascus before Paul showed up? The Bible says the Church is, by extension, Christ on earth, united by the Eucharist.
And the one your "cult of Mary" "cult of the virgin" falsely defined as Pope 1, .. Here is what Paul said about him..​
Peter and Paul had no doctrinal differences. "Cult of the Virgin" was explained in 1974 AD, not 33 AD.. Marialis Cultus (February 2, 1974) | Paul VI
"He walked not uprightly according to the TRUTH".., at least once.
Peter was a hypocrite in that instance, and Paul corrected him. Popes have been corrected by saints throughout history. That doesn't prove they have no authority. If you bother to read your Bible, Peter was hiding from the Judaizers, not teaching them. You are chasing phantoms of your own creation, trying to discredit Peter.

We need to distinguish between how the word cult is used in Catholic theology and how it is used in the vernacular.
In the vernacular, the word cult refers to a person or group that uses psychological and emotional manipulation to control others. It seems to be the only definition you know.

But in Catholic theology the word cult is used to describe a particular form of worship. If a Catholic wishes to marry a non-Christian, the dispensation that is applied for is called “disparity of cult,” meaning that they have different methods of worship.
Within Catholicism there are different “cults” or liturgical forms and devotions. Any liturgical or prayer devotion centered around a particular saint is referred to as a cult. Therefore, the “cult of Mary” within Catholicism would refer simply to Marian devotion. There is no psychological and emotional manipulation to control others in Marian devotion. That's a clear violation on the Church's teaching on human dignity.

10. It is one of the major tenets of Catholic doctrine that man's response to God in faith must be free: no one therefore is to be forced to embrace the Christian faith against his own will.(8) This doctrine is contained in the word of God and it was constantly proclaimed by the Fathers of the Church.(7) The act of faith is of its very nature a free act. Man, redeemed by Christ the Savior and through Christ Jesus called to be God's adopted son,(9) cannot give his adherence to God revealing Himself unless, under the drawing of the Father,(10) he offers to God the reasonable and free submission of faith. It is therefore completely in accord with the nature of faith that in matters religious every manner of coercion on the part of men should be excluded. In consequence, the principle of religious freedom makes no small contribution to the creation of an environment in which men can without hindrance be invited to the Christian faith, embrace it of their own free will, and profess it effectively in their whole manner of life.​
Therefore, the “cult of Mary” within Catholicism would refer simply to Marian devotion, that no Catholic is forced to have. Your constant derogatory reference to "The Cult of Mary" is forum sadism when used in the vernacular context; it appears its the only way you can use the term. Do it once more and I will have to commend you to the care of St. Ignora in the iggy bin, only because you are too proud to be corrected and refuse to dialogue like an adult. I'm sick of your stupid childish insults, a bully, unbecoming of anyone claiming to be a Christian.
 
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RedFan

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He went to see St. Peter in Jerusalem for fifteen days in order to be confirmed in his calling (Galatians 1:18)
Paul's purpose of confirmation may be a bit of a stretch from the text of Gal. 1:18. I suppose ἱστορέω has a connotation of acquiring information in some contexts. But regardless, Paul ought to have been firm in his calling already, without Peter's input. No?
 

Behold

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Agreed. It hasn't changed, it developed, never deviating from the essence of Paul's doctrine.


Jesus never once elevated His Mother's status.
Paul never once mentions Mary, in 13 Epistles. However one time he refers to her as a "woman".. and Jesus does the same, when He was on the Cross... .. Jesus said "Woman".......yet he never called her "mother",, when He was dying... Not once.

The "elevation" of Mary, is based on "the Cult of Mary", taking this verse..

"blessed among women" and rewriting it as...Blessed ABOVE women..

Also, the Goddess Diana, was known as the "perpetual virgin" and 'queen of heaven" so, the early "cult of the Virgin" just shifted "Diana worship" into "Mary"..

Its really that simple.