Where does the Pope get his authority?

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Athanasius377

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I'll go further than that on 1st Clement. I find it equivocal at best. Some have argued that because it responds to a matter on which the Corinthians had apparently consulted Rome, these Corinthians must have recognized Rome’s authority. But read its tenor, and one thing jumps out: this is not the writing of a man who thought he could impose his will in Greece. (Indeed, in chapter 56 he suggests to the dissenting Corinthians that “they should submit themselves, I do not say unto us, but unto the will of God.”)

The letter was written late in the First Century, possibly when some of the original twelve apostles were still alive. They all appointed bishops in various locales. Paul did as well. Those bishops were largely of like mind on matters, and didn't see any need for, nor did many occasions arise for, kowtowing to the Roman bishop. They all had, and passed on to their successors, the same power to bind and loose. Peter's successor wasn't even on their radar.
I would agree with the thrust of your argument inso far that the Corinthian church looked to Rome for guidance. Yet the whole tenor of the letter is a persuasive form of the ancient world whose form escapes me at the moment. The problem I see with the Romish argument is that there was an absolute authority in Rome in the second century which I do not see. Rather I see an authority as first among equals which is different than our Romish friends. Meaning that they taken a later development and read it back into history and demand we read the same. What I take from the ECF is that the papacy developed over time and was not present in the apostolic or the post apostolic era. In fact the more I study the ante-nicene fathers the more I am convinced of this truth.
 
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RedFan

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The argument for Papal authority over other Sees is largely one of necessity: someone has to be the final authority in the event of dissent and disagreement on dogma, so let it be the successor of Peter, who held the primacy position among the Twelve. We see this in Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses Book III, 3.2 ("For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-eminent authority"). We see it in Pope Leo XIII’s Encyclical Satis Cognitum (1896), who acknowledged apostolic authority separate from Rome, but denounced that authority as invalid if it is in conflict with Rome:

“For He who made Peter the foundation of the Church also ‘chose, twelve, whom He called apostles’ (Luke vi., 13); and just as it is necessary that the authority of Peter should be perpetuated in the Roman Pontiff, so, by the fact that the bishops succeed the Apostles, they inherit their ordinary power, and thus the episcopal order necessarily belongs to the essential constitution of the Church. Although they do not receive plenary, or universal, or supreme authority, they are not to be looked as vicars of the Roman Pontiffs; because they exercise a power really their own, and are most truly called the ordinary pastors of the peoples over whom they rule.

“But since the successor of Peter is one, and those of the Apostles are many, it is necessary to examine into the relations which exist between him and them according to the divine constitution of the Church. Above all things the need of union between the bishops and the successors of Peter is clear and undeniable. This bond once broken, Christians would be separated and scattered, and would in no wise form one body and one flock. ‘The safety of the Church depends on the dignity of the chief priest, to whom if an extraordinary and supreme power is not given, there are as many schisms to be expected in the Church as there are priests’ (S. Hieronymus, Dialog, contra Luciferianos, n. 9). It is necessary, therefore, to bear this in mind, viz., that nothing was conferred on the apostles apart from Peter, but that several things were conferred upon Peter apart from the Apostles. St. John Chrysostom in explaining the words of Christ asks: ‘Why, passing over the others, does He speak to Peter about these things?’ And he replies unhesitatingly and at once, ‘Because he was pre-eminent among the Apostles, the mouthpiece of the Disciples, and the head of the college’ (Hom. lxxxviii. in Joan., n. I). He alone was designated as the foundation of the Church. To him He gave the power of binding and loosing; to him alone was given the power of feeding. On the other hand, whatever authority and office the Apostles received, they received in conjunction with Peter.”

With all due respect to Leo, (1) all of the apostles were given the power of binding and loosing (Matt. 18:18); (2) feeding lambs, if Peter alone was told to do it, has nothing to do with resolving disputes among the episcopacy.

You are right about ante-Nicene history. Most schisms and disputes of that era arose in the East, and they were resolved by bishops in the East. Rome played little if any role. If the early Popes had the "final say," they generally kept their mouths shut (assuming they were even consulted) about most heresies and disagreements. And sometimes when they did weigh in, they were told to go pound sand. In the middle of the third century, Pope Stephen’s view regarding the efficacy of baptism by heretics was rejected by 87 bishops at a Council of Carthage, at which Cyprian stated: “For neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops, nor by tyrannical terror does any compel his colleague to the necessity of obedience; since every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty and power, has his own proper right of judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he himself can judge another.” CHURCH FATHERS: On the Baptism of Heretics (Council of Carthage)
 
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Marymog

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However, i always enjoy corresponding with a Catholic.
Lol....You don't correspond with us. You preach anti-Catholic rhetoric to us. You crack me up. I will come back tomorrow and check your posts when I need another good laugh.
 

Marymog

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KJV Acts 20:29-30
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

KJV John 16:1-3
1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
None of the passages you provided say that the falling away would begin with the demise of the last of the Apostles!

Acts 20 says that the falling away will happen after Jesus departs. After he departs the wolves will enter among them (the Apostles and the flock).

2 Thessalonians doesn't say that the falling away will begin with the demise of the last Apostle either. It doesn't say anything close to that.

I am not even sure why you put John 16 in as proof text. NOTHING in those 3 verses has anything to do with what we are talking about.

Thank you for the opportunity to teach you Scripture.........Bible Study Mary
 

Marymog

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You are now arguing that his letter to the Roman church supports its primacy, not that his letter to the Smyrneans does. If you think his letter to the Smyrneans does, tell me why. I've already told you why I think it doesn't, when read in the original Greek. (Gotta go to the Greek!)

Ignatius' letter to the Roman Church does praise it greatly, but that letter is also the only one of his letters that doesn't mention a local bishop, or exhort obedience to his readers' bishop -- the common theme of his other letters. And it is silent on the issue of Roman hegemony beyond its diocesan borders.
He RedFan,

I have been arguing all along and never changed the argument that Ignatius letter to the Roman church supports its primacy. I think the confusion between us happened when either you thought I said OR I said that his letter to the Smyrnaeans supports Roman primacy. If I said that OR you thought I said that I cleared that confusion up in post #1,687 when I said, I agree with you that the Letter to the Smyrnaeans does not support the notion that Rome had primacy during Ignatius time.
 
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Marymog

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I would agree with the thrust of your argument inso far that the Corinthian church looked to Rome for guidance. Yet the whole tenor of the letter is a persuasive form of the ancient world whose form escapes me at the moment. The problem I see with the Romish argument is that there was an absolute authority in Rome in the second century which I do not see. Rather I see an authority as first among equals which is different than our Romish friends. Meaning that they taken a later development and read it back into history and demand we read the same. What I take from the ECF is that the papacy developed over time and was not present in the apostolic or the post apostolic era. In fact the more I study the ante-nicene fathers the more I am convinced of this truth.
Hey Athanasius,

You agree that in 80AD the Corinthian church looked to Rome (Clement) for guidance, which means Rome and Corinth weren't equals. Historically we know that in the early Church Clements letters were considered Scripture and were read aloud at church services alongside Matthew, Mark, Luke John etc. That would also show Clement (Rome) was held in very high regard and he was considered equal in teaching to the Apostles.

Thirty years later in 110AD Ignatius says of the Church in Rome, others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force.

Thirty years later in 140AD in the Hermas letter it suggest that Rome is in charge of the Church: in this city (Rome) along with the presbyters who are in charge of the Church”

Dionysius in 170AD and Irenaeus in 189AD support Rome primacy. How can you not see Rome, which means the bishop OF Rome, as having primacy?

You said, "the more I study the ante-nicene fathers the more I am convinced of this truth." Can you quote the anti-Nicene Fathers that have written AGAINST Rome having primacy?

Mary
 

RedFan

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Thirty years later in 140AD in the Hermas letter it suggest that Rome is in charge of the Church: in this city (Rome) along with the presbyters who are in charge of the Church”
I need to push back a bit here as well, @Marymog. Here is the full quote (Roberts-Donaldson translation): "But you will read the words in this city, along with the presbyters who preside over the Church."

Here is Lightfoot's translation: "But thou shalt read (the book) to this city along with the elders that preside over the Church."

The Roman "presbyters" or "elders" that "preside over the Church" are obviously not a reference to the bishop of Rome, obviously not a reference to the Pope. The "Church" referred to is either the Church in Rome or the Church worldwide. It really has to be the former, because Hermas is directed in the vision to read with them, and he is in Rome.
 

Marymog

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I need to push back a bit here as well, @Marymog. Here is the full quote (Roberts-Donaldson translation): "But you will read the words in this city, along with the presbyters who preside over the Church."

Here is Lightfoot's translation: "But thou shalt read (the book) to this city along with the elders that preside over the Church."

The Roman "presbyters" or "elders" that "preside over the Church" are obviously not a reference to the bishop of Rome, obviously not a reference to the Pope. The "Church" referred to is either the Church in Rome or the Church worldwide. It really has to be the former, because Hermas is directed in the vision to read with them, and he is in Rome.
Thanks, RedFan.

Both quotes you provided does not say "presides over the church in Rome". In both quotes you provided it says "preside over the Church" with Church being capitalized. It doesn't say "Church in Rome" and if it did it would say church (not capitalized) in Rome it would be that single church, in Rome. That leaves only one choice. The universal Church.
 

Brakelite

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Acts 20 says that the falling away will happen after Jesus departs.
Bible Study Mary. Acts 20 verses 18 to 35 is Paul speaking of his own departure.
2 Thessalonians doesn't say that the falling away will begin with the demise of the last Apostle either. It doesn't say anything close to that.
KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It says that the falling away would take place prior to the second coming. The Thessalonians were concerned they had missed out, and the Lord had already come and gone. Paul was reassuring them that the second coming was still future. As we know the second coming hadn't taken place yet, therefore, despite what the apostles then thought, that it would take place perhaps even in their lifetime, there were certain other events that needed to take place first, one of which was the falling away. Obviously that took place after the apostles had gone. And John stated that even in his own time, that mystery of iniquity that would mark that falling away, had already begun to work during his lifetime. The apostles as we know had to contend with a number of heretics, whom they taught against and warned their churches to beware. But it would get worse. As Jesus said, the love of many would wax cold, and in His letter to the church at Ephesus, Jesus said,
KJV Revelation 2:4
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
That letter would have been read after most of the Apostles had died. The full impact of that lack of love become evident as we read through the letters, each church being local assemblies, but also representative of periods of church character throughout the centuries. That falling away is evident as each church goes down further as we proceed through history, with the exception of the church of Philadelphia, which in the timeline is representative of the reformation. The Laodicean church is representative of today's church. The last church before the second coming. Asleep. Arrogant. Proud. Believing itself okay, but in reality, miserable, poor, blind, and naked.

I am not even sure why you put John 16 in as proof text. NOTHING in those 3 verses has anything to do with what we are talking about.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

The Christian communities throughout the western hemisphere didn't have to wait long before the above scripture came to pass. 4th century official Rome sanctioned Christian church in that city was quite content to allow Constantine, in the name of God, persecute those who rejected the creeds being imposed on the churches by arrogant power hungry bishops. As time went on, and as the Roman bishops grew in political power and influence, those persecutions increased, in the name of God, in order to establish doctrines and creeds unheard of in the Apostolic church, but based on man made traditions.
That falling away gradually grew over several centuries, and in the absence of the holy Spirit, the established hierarchy in Rome resorted to politics to secure their positions and enforce their doctrines, and the persecutions against dissenters grew in direct parallel. The Cathars which @Behold wrote of were just one example of many.
 
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Marymog

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Bible Study Mary. Acts 20 verses 18 to 35 is Paul speaking of his own departure.
You are right Brakelite. It was Paul speaking of his own departure. I was going by memory of what Acts 20 spoke of, and I should not have done that. Even correcting WHO said does not change the FACT that the falling away would begin with the demise of the last of the Apostle! There were already many that had fallen away which is the purpose of some of the letters in the NT. Even when Jesus was alive there were some that were expelling demons in His name but they did not follow Jesus or the Apostles. So your theory makes no sense.

Bible study Mary!
 

Behold

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. Even when Jesus was alive there were some that were expelling demons in His name but they did not follow Jesus or the Apostles.

Those were not Christians.

Let me show you how you can know..

He told those religious people....."depart from me, i never KNEW YOU">.

"never KNEW YOU".

I dont KNOW YOU..

WHO ARE YOU?

Now, how are you "known" by Jesus?

"Christ in you, the Hope of Glory".......... Every Christian is the "Temple of the Holy Spirit"........ All born again Christians are 'In Christ".. .

So, if Christ is in you, and the believer is the "temple of the Holy Spirit", and the Born again Believer is "in Christ"... then it would be impossible for Jesus to "not know them".

But If they are not "in Christ " and He is not in them, and they are not the "temple of the Holy Spirit", then Jesus absolutely does not "know them".
 

RedFan

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Thanks, RedFan.

Both quotes you provided does not say "presides over the church in Rome". In both quotes you provided it says "preside over the Church" with Church being capitalized. It doesn't say "Church in Rome" and if it did it would say church (not capitalized) in Rome it would be that single church, in Rome. That leaves only one choice. The universal Church.
Well, two responses. First, the Greek does not capitalize "Church," σὺ δὲ ἀναγνώσῃ εἰς ταύτην τὴν πόλιν μετὰ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων τῶν προϊσταμένων τῆς ἐκκλησίας, so that capitalization is a translator's gloss on ἐκκλησίας. (Gotta go to the Greek!) More importantly, let's look at the two preceding sentences along with the quote you lifted:

"Thou shalt therefore write two little books, and shalt send one to Clement, and one to Grapte. So Clement shall send to the foreign cities, for this is his duty; while Grapte shall instruct the widows and the orphans. But thou shalt read (the book) to this city along with the elders that preside over the Church."

So the "foreign cities" (those outside Rome) were to get copies of Hermas' vision sent to them separately. The elders presiding over "the Church" were of "this city."

There's just no other reasonable way to construe it.
 
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Marymog

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Well, two responses. First, the Greek does not capitalize "Church," σὺ δὲ ἀναγνώσῃ εἰς ταύτην τὴν πόλιν μετὰ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων τῶν προϊσταμένων τῆς ἐκκλησίας, so that capitalization is a translator's gloss on ἐκκλησίας. (Gotta go to the Greek!) More importantly, let's look at the two preceding sentences along with the quote you lifted:

"Thou shalt therefore write two little books, and shalt send one to Clement, and one to Grapte. So Clement shall send to the foreign cities, for this is his duty; while Grapte shall instruct the widows and the orphans. But thou shalt read (the book) to this city along with the elders that preside over the Church."

So the "foreign cities" (those outside Rome) were to get copies of Hermas' vision sent to them separately. The elders presiding over "the Church" were of "this city."

There's just no other reasonable way to construe it.
Thanks RedFan. Church is capitalized on the link that YOU USED to make your point:


JB Lightfoot has it capitalized: The Shepherd of Hermas (Lightfoot translation)

Roberts-Donalson English Translation has it capitalized: The Shepherd of Hermas (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

Google Translate has it capitalized: Search Microsoft Translator - Translate from Greek to English

Thank you for your opinion on Greek.

Mary
 

RedFan

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Thanks RedFan. Church is capitalized on the link that YOU USED to make your point:


JB Lightfoot has it capitalized: The Shepherd of Hermas (Lightfoot translation)

Roberts-Donalson English Translation has it capitalized: The Shepherd of Hermas (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

Google Translate has it capitalized: Search Microsoft Translator - Translate from Greek to English

Thank you for your opinion on Greek.

Mary
Well, I don't know why it matters whether the translators chose to capitalize ἐκκλησίας. English translations do it all the time even when referencing a Church that clearly is geographically limited. If you are suggesting that the translator's choice to capitalize "Church" without expressly following it with a locale signifies the translator's interpretation of Church as the universal worldwide Church, all I can say is that Lightfoot's introduction expresses a contrary view:

"One copy of his book he is to send to Clement, who is charged with making it known to foreign cities; another to Grapte, whose business it is to instruct the widows and orphans, and he himself, together with the presbyters, is to read it to the people of ‘this city i.e., Rome (Vis. ii. 4)."

Can I ask a question? Why would a Catholic apologist ever want to portray elders/presbyters, rather than the Pope, as the leaders of the worldwide universal Church? If you are right about that, it undercuts the papacy!
 
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Marymog

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Can I ask a question? Why would a Catholic apologist ever want to portray elders/presbyters, rather than the Pope, as the leaders of the worldwide universal Church? If you are right about that, it undercuts the papacy!
When have I ever portrayed elders/presbyters as leaders of the worldwide universal Church? Elders/presbyters (we call them Bishops/priests) are leaders of a region for the bishop and a church for a priest.
 

RedFan

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I don't know what word game you are playing but it makes no sense.
It's the logical outgrowth of your interpretation of "thou shalt read (the book) to this city along with the elders that preside over the Church." If the word Church is, as you claim, a reference to the worldwide universal Church, then those elders preside over the worldwide universal Church.
 

Marymog

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OK, then. The elders and presbyters preside over the universal worldwide Church.
I just figured out what word game you are playing. You are referring to "along with the elders that preside over the Church." You think that since it says elders (plural) that preside of the Church it means that SEVERAL men preside over The Church. Not just one man, the Pope. You think that statement negates a Pope?