Where does the Pope get his authority?

[RedFan]

When have I ever portrayed elders/presbyters as leaders of the worldwide universal Church?

The moment you interpreted Shepherd of Hermas' word ἐκκλησίας as a reference to the worldwide universal Church.

 

[RedFan]

I just figured out what word game you are playing. You are referring to "along with the elders that preside over the Church." You think that since it says elders (plural) that preside of the Church it means that SEVERAL men preside over The Church. Not just one man, the Pope. You think that statement negates a Pope?

Either the Pope presides over the universal worldwide church, or the presbyters/elders do. Which is it? If it's the Pope, then the Shepherd of Hermas's reference to a church presided over by presbyters/elders cannot mean that universal worldwide Church. It must mean the pastors of the local congregations scattered through the city.

 

[Marymog]

It's the logical outgrowth of your interpretation of "thou shalt read (the book) to this city along with the elders that preside over the Church." If the word Church is, as you claim, a reference to the worldwide universal Church, then those elders preside over the worldwide universal Church.

You are right. It is a logical outgrowth of the interpretation.

The Church is led by men (plural) but there is only one man who presides over The Church, and he sits in the chair of Peter. I can't speak for The hierarchical make up of The Church in Rome at that time is not well documented, but I suspect that man (Clement), in Rome, had men in Rome that helped him lead The Church AND they were elders/presbyters of the churches in Rome.

 

[Marymog]

Either the Pope presides over the universal worldwide church, or the presbyters/elders do. Which is it? If it's the Pope, then the Shepherd of Hermas's reference to a church presided over by presbyters/elders cannot mean that universal worldwide Church. It must mean the pastors of the local congregations scattered through the city.

Redfan...I get the game you are playing. It makes me sad that you have even failed to acknowledge that YOUR translation of Greek is completely opposite of the link YOU provided and the 3 other links I provided. You want to go down another rabbit trail and brush off your opinion like it never happened and isn't even backed up by the link YOU provided.

The Shepard of Hermas letter is NOT rock-solid proof that the bishop of Rome was the leader of The Church. A combination of many historical writings brings scholars to that conclusion. If you want to nitpick the Hermas letter......Go for it. Ignore the body of evidence. I can do the same thing: Peter was Satan because Jesus said he was in Matthew 16:23. Now prove me wrong.

 

[RedFan]

It's interesting that Shepherd of Hermas didn't ultimately get viewed as "Scripture" (although Irenaeus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria and Origen all thought it was). It had far better reception in the East than in the West. And it is in Codex Sinaiticus. My guess is that its push for Mosaic law as still important to follow just put a sour taste in the Latin mouth.

 

[RedFan]

Redfan...I get the game you are playing. It makes me sad that you have even failed to acknowledge that YOUR translation of Greek is completely opposite of the link YOU provided and the 3 other links I provided. You want to go down another rabbit trail and brush off your opinion like it never happened and isn't even backed up by the link YOU provided.

I have never attempted a translation of my own from the Greek, although I am happy to do so if you want. Instead I quoted two popular translations, Roberts-Donaldson and Lightfoot. Your three links include these two. They all capitalize the lower case Greek word for church. You view that capitalization as their interpretation of the word as a reference to the universal worldwide Church. I view it as a reference to the congregations of the Church in Rome, where the elders/presbyters were to read the vision along with Hermas. Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Marymog]

I have never attempted a translation of my own from the Greek, although I am happy to do so if you want. Instead I quoted two popular translations, Roberts-Donaldson and Lightfoot. Your three links include these two. They all capitalize the lower case Greek word for church. You view that capitalization as their interpretation of the word as a reference to the universal worldwide Church. I view it as a reference to the congregations of the Church in Rome, where the elders/presbyters were to read the vision along with Hermas. Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

Interesting. I provided the links to Roberts-Donaldson and Lightfoot and those links showed Church capitalized. But your quotes for Roberts-Donaldson and Lightfoot were allegedly different even though the link you quoted from showed Church capitalized. Sooooo I'm a bit confused.....

Also, I guess I got confused when you repeatedly said, when read in the original Greek. (Gotta go to the Greek!), I thought YOU were going to the original Greek and YOU were translating it. Now I see that you, like me, have relied on other men to do that!

Moving on.....

 

[RedFan]

Interesting. I provided the links to Roberts-Donaldson and Lightfoot and those links showed Church capitalized. But your quotes for Roberts-Donaldson and Lightfoot were allegedly different even though the link you quoted from showed Church capitalized. Sooooo I'm a bit confused.....

Also, I guess I got confused when you repeatedly said, when read in the original Greek. (Gotta go to the Greek!), I thought YOU were going to the original Greek and YOU were translating it. Now I see that you, like me, have relied on other men to do that!

Moving on.....

Well, before we move on, I just want to say that I think Shepherd of Hermas actually does tend to support papal primacy -- although not for the reason you gave (which I think actually undercuts papal primacy). Notice that two sentences before our oft-discussed sentence, Clement is charged with a duty (my translation) of sending the writings to foreign cities. If Clement is Pope Clement, well, you see the point.

 

[Marymog]

I believe the Catholics have nothing to do with the Christ.

Is this a serious post? You know what is in my heart? How He has changed my life? According to YOU I have nothing to do with Christ because YOU believe I don't? Bizarre to say the least.....

Scripture says, Baptism now saves you. You Protestants says it doesn't save you. But Catholics have nothing to do with Christ?

Jesus told you that you must eat/drink His body/blood to have life in you. He then held up the bread/wine and said this IS my body/blood, do this in remembrance of me. He SHOWED you how to have life in you and eat Him. Paul said the bread/wine IS a communion in His body/blood but you Protestants say NOPE, it isn't His body blood, it's a symbol and we don't have to do it in remembrance of Him. And Catholics have nothing to do with Christ???

Oh Peter.......I forgive you!

 

[Marymog]

Yes, in the head!

Oh my gosh, it is soooo funny when you make fun of your fellow Christians. You are sooooo Christ like!

 

[Peterlag]

Is this a serious post? You know what is in my heart? How He has changed my life? According to YOU I have nothing to do with Christ because YOU believe I don't? Bizarre to say the least.....

Scripture says, Baptism now saves you. You Protestants says it doesn't save you. But Catholics have nothing to do with Christ?

Jesus told you that you must eat/drink His body/blood to have life in you. He then held up the bread/wine and said this IS my body/blood, do this in remembrance of me. He SHOWED you how to have life in you and eat Him. Paul said the bread/wine IS a communion in His body/blood but you Protestants say NOPE, it isn't His body blood, it's a symbol and we don't have to do it in remembrance of Him. And Catholics have nothing to do with Christ???

Oh Peter.......I forgive you!

There is nothing the Catholics teach that is biblical. Nothing. You don't get born again by having communion nor do you learn who God is or walk by the spirit by having communion. It's something we can do to remember the Lord, but we are not drinking his blood or eating his body. It's something we can do when we eat or drink that we remember him. The Catholics have nothing biblical nor do they understand the Scriptures or who Jesus is.

 

[Augustin56]

There is nothing the Catholics teach that is biblical. Nothing. You don't get born again by having communion nor do you learn who God is or walk by the spirit by having communion. It's something we can do to remember the Lord, but we are not drinking his blood or eating his body. It's something we can do when we eat or drink that we remember him. The Catholics have nothing biblical nor do they understand the Scriptures or who Jesus is.

You would have more accurately posted, "There is nothing the Catholcis teach that lines up with my personal interpretation of the Bible" Or, more simply, "Catholics don't agree with me." That would have been an accurate, honest post.

 

[Peterlag]

You would have more accurately posted, "There is nothing the Catholcis teach that lines up with my personal interpretation of the Bible" Or, more simply, "Catholics don't agree with me." That would have been an accurate, honest post.

I remember you. You're the nice Catholic guy. I have a friend like you. I call him my only Catholic friend. I did not just wake up one day and understand the Bible as well as I do. I have been trying to figure it out for many years. And when I did I realized it was the Catholics who put their concepts into the culture world wide and that's what I was fighting all these years. It's them who teach we are sinners. They teach us to look at ourselves and our sin. I teach that we should look at Christ and to walk in his spirit.

 

[Augustin56]

I remember you. You're the nice Catholic guy. I have a friend like you. I call him my only Catholic friend. I did not just wake up one day and understand the Bible as well as I do. I have been trying to figure it out for many years. And when I did I realized it was the Catholics who put their concepts into the culture world wide and that's what I was fighting all these years. It's them who teach we are sinners. They teach us to look at ourselves and our sin. I teach that we should look at Christ and to walk in his spirit.

But, Peter, if you look at Christ, how can you ignore that He founded a Church, and gave that Church His Godly authority to teach, preach, confect the Sacraments, etc.? It's all over the New Testament. Or, are you looking at a different Christ, like the Mormons? (I either don't recall, or never knew, what group you claim to be a part of. Is it possible that you are Mormon? That would explain the "different Christ" part, I think.)

 

[Peterlag]

But, Peter, if you look at Christ, how can you ignore that He founded a Church, and gave that Church His Godly authority to teach, preach, confect the Sacraments, etc.? It's all over the New Testament. Or, are you looking at a different Christ, like the Mormons? (I either don't recall, or never knew, what group you claim to be a part of. Is it possible that you are Mormon? That would explain the "different Christ" part, I think.)

I am not with a group. What are Sacraments?

 

[Augustin56]

I am not with a group. What are Sacraments?

Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ, for our sanctification.

 

[Peterlag]

Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ, for our sanctification.

I just Googled them and they make no sense. Whatever they are they are not in the Bible.

 

[Augustin56]

I just Googled them and they make no sense. Whatever they are they are not in the Bible.

Peter, they actually are in Scripture.

Baptism

John 3:5 – “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

Matthew 28:19 – “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”


Confirmation

Luke 24:49 – “But stay you in the city of Jerusalem till you be endued with power from on high.”


The Eucharist

John 6:54 – “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you.”


Sacrament of Penance [Confession]

Psalm 41:4 – “Heal, O Lord, my soul, for I have sinned against Thee.”

John 20:22-23 – “And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.’”


Anointing of the Sick [Extrem Unction]

James 5:14-15 – “Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man, and the Lord shall raise him up, and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.”


Matrimony

Matthew 19:4-6 – “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate.”


Holy Orders

Matthew 10:1 – Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

John 20:22-23 – “And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.’”

 

[Behold]

Peter, they a

John 20:22-23 – “And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.

The 11 Apostles received the Holy Spirit and none of then were baptized in water...., not before or after they received it from JESUS.... John 20:22

(Did you want to add that to the verse), @Augustin56 ?

And if you try to use Acts 2:38, you'll find that Peter was given #9 Spiritual Gift (Paul's List) and again he was not water baptized.

So, now you have Peter receiving the Holy Spirit and "receiving the Gift of Tongues".. and no water baptism, unless you pretend it happened.
And you have to pretend it happened.., as the "Cult of Mary" teaches that this can't happen to their First POPE.... without that WATER WATER WATER....

 

[Augustin56]

The 11 Apostles received the Holy Spirit and none of then were baptized in water...., not before or after they received it from JESUS.... John 20:22

(Did you want to add that to the verse), @Augustin56 ?

And if you try to use Acts 2:38, you'll find that Peter was given #9 Spiritual Gift (Paul's List) and again he was not water baptized.

So, now you have Peter receiving the Holy Spirit and "receiving the Gift of Tongues".. and no water baptism, unless you pretend it happened.
And you have to pretend it happened.., as the "Cult of Mary" teaches that this can't happen to their First POPE.... without that WATER WATER WATER....

Where in the Bible does it say that the Apostles were NOT baptized? (It doesn't.) Where in the Bible does it say that EVERYTHING Jesus said and did, and the Apostles experienced, is IN the Bible? (It doesn't. In fact, it says the opposite. John 21:25)

Your context of Sola Scriptura leads you into these errors. Jesus didn't write a book to spread His truths. He founded a (ONE) Church to do so, giving it His authority to teach, preach, govern, and sanctify. This Church wrote the New Testament and in the late 4th century, set the canon for the Bible.