The Prophetic Timeline: Why Jesuit Futurists/Jesuit Preterists Ignore It

[Spiritual Israelite]

I provided those quotes from the Judaism 101 site to show what they are looking for in the messiah - and how they will mistake the Antichrist person as being their messiah.

I am aware of that, but you are allowing their beliefs to influence what you believe will happen. That is not wise.

 

[Douggg]

I am aware of that, but you are allowing their beliefs to influence what you believe will happen. That is not wise.

Knowing what the Jews (judaism) believe and expect is critical to understanding how the end times events will be fulfilled.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Knowing what the Jews (judaism) believe and expect is critical to understanding how the end times events will be fulfilled.

No, it is not. Knowing what scripture teaches is critical to understanding how the end times events will be fulfilled.

 

[Douggg]

No, it is not. Knowing what scripture teaches is critical to understanding how the end times events will be fulfilled.

Yes, knowing what the scriptures teach is critical to understanding how the end times events will be fulfilled.

But also is knowing what the Jews (Judaism) believe and expect is critical as well.

Most Christians don't know and are unaware and don't care what the Jews (Judaism) believe and expect. The reverse is true concerning the Jews (Judaism). Could you imagine what a Jew (Judaism) would think coming to this forum and reading through all varied and opposing views that are expressed here concerning eschatology ?

 

[Phoneman777]

What 1John2:18-22 says is that there were persons back in John's day that went out from the church and were exhibiting the characteristics of the coming Antichrist by denying Jesus and denying the Father/Son relationship. John called such persons antichrists.. It is not saying that the Antichrist arises from within the church.

Yes, they were "in" but not "born again" - we call them church "hypocrites".

QUESTION: DOES JUDAISM PLAY THE HYPOCRITE? NO! THEY OPENLY OPPOSE CHRIST.

1 John 2:19 KJV
They went out from us ("us" denotes the "church", of which Judaism is not a part)

but they were not of us (they were "in" but not "born again")
for if they had been of us, they would...have continued with us (if "born again" they'd have not left)

but they went out (they began within, but later left)

that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. ("in" but not "born again")

The Antichrist is who Jesus was talking about in John 5:43, as the Jews rejected Jesus as their King of Israel messiah, but would receive another coming in his own name.

The Jews were never "in"!

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Again, the Jews were never "in"!

You never heard of "the son of perdition" aka the "antichrist"?

Only one other is called "son of perdition" - JUDAS - who started out "in" but wasn't "born again".

Understand?

 

[Jay Ross]

In Daniel 8:12-13, in the time of the end vision about the little horn, he will stop the daily sacrifice. In order to do that, the daily sacrifices will have to be going on. Those do not take place unless there is a temple in place.

So a temple will have to be built and the daily sacrifices begun again.

Dougggg, your premise is wrong in that if the Little Horn causes the daily sacrifices, the reference to the "daily sacrifices" does not mean animal sacrifices. What is being told to us is that there will be a falling away of the Saints from God and as such their daily worship/sacrifices will cease. It requires a little grey matter sometimes to actually join the dots in the scriptures.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, they were "in" but not "born again" - we call them church "hypocrites".

Not hypocrites, but apostates.

I will give you a modern day example of what John was calling antichrists in his day. Yusuf Estes. An American preacher, who left Christianity to become a muslim, which Muslim although they claim Jesus was a prophet, they say that Jesus is not the Son of God. Yusuf Estes has You Tube videos.

-----------------

The prefix "anti" means "instead of" and/or "against". Christ means anointed. The Greek version of messiah.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

The Antichrist will be "instead of" and "against" the true Christ - Jesus.

The connection between Christ and being the King of Israel messiah is in several verses.

Mark15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Matthew 27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

Matthew 27:37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

John 12:
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Jesus was talking about the Jews receiving the Antichrist, thinking that he is their King of Israel messiah.

 

[Douggg]

Dougggg, your premise is wrong in that if the Little Horn causes the daily sacrifices, the reference to the "daily sacrifices" does not mean animal sacrifices. What is being told to us is that there will be a falling away of the Saints from God and as such their daily worship/sacrifices will cease. It requires a little grey matter sometimes to actually join the dots in the scriptures.

In Daniel 8, it is not talking about Christian worship of any kind, but the two lambs a day which are part of Jewish daily temple worship.

A falling away from Christianity will happen when the Antichrist, phony King of Israel thought-to be messiah by the Jews, comes to power, but that is in 2Thessalonians2:3.

2Thessalonians2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In 2Thessalonians2:4, he reveals that he is not the messiah after all, but the man of sin, by going into the temple sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

2Thessalonians2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, friend, but agreeing with what Jesuit Alcazar's Preterism or Jesuit Ribera's Futurism certainly does!

Not so.

Friend, it's inconsistent to acknowledge the first four kingdoms immediately follow each other but then insist there's a "gap" between the Fourth Beast and the Ten Toes - especially since Protestant Historicism shows this to be completely unnecessary and even secular historians to their astonishment that what happened in history matches what is written in Daniel 2:

Saxons = England Burgundians = Switzerland
Francs = France Visigoths = Spain
Allemenni = Germany Heruli = EXTINCT
Suevi = Portugal Vandals = EXTINCT
Lombards = Italy Ostrogoths = EXTINCT

Gabriel covers Babylon, MP, Greece, Rome, the Ten Barbarians among which arose the "Little Horn" papacy which did everything Daniel 7 says it would do.

At the end of the papacy's reign (1798 A.D.) the "Great Religious Awakening" was taking place which had Christians all over the world simultaneously studying prophecy, and what was discovered was the Heavenly Sanctuary, High Priest Jesus officiating, and that the 2300 Days prophecy which began at the same time the 70 Weeks began (the 70 were "cut off" from the 2300) would end in 1844 when High Priest Jesus would pass from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place and begin "cleansing the sanctuary" aka "time of the Judgment". That's what Daniel meant by, "...the Judgment shall sit" which takes place while the Little Horn papacy is still running it's mouth.

Disagree for two reasons:

1) disqualifying Rome as the fourth beast is a massive departure from the prophetic template established in Daniel 2 where the four kingdoms follow one after the other in quick succession.

2) The idea of "whole Earth" can mean "extent of its widespread reach" - hardly a point upon which to disqualify Rome as the devourer: Was the Gospel Preached throughout the "Whole World" in the First Century?

Even Caaaatholics get some things right like pre millenial, And the Catholic church is no longer premil,pre trib, dispensational.

As for the fourth beast/kingdom, there is no gap, it has been in existence since Julius Cesar or therabouts. It has gone through the iterations I have shown you and as describedin Dan.2 and Dan.7. It is still in the two leg stage now with Russia and the US the predominant powers. this is starting to crumble and the next iteration will move it to the one world govt. stage.

Sorry but when the ten toes (ten horns) reign, Jesus establishes a kingdom not enters the most holy place! That has not happened yet. And all that 1844 stuff and going from the holy to the most holy makes you sound like a Jehovahs Witness and all their prognosticating.

I did not disqualify Rome, I said it was the starting point of the fourth gentile kingdom during the times of the gentiles. Dan. 7 makes it clear that the fourth beast which is different from all the rest goes through several iterations.

As for your attempt to define whole earth as a widespread reach? The roman Empire never conquered the known world, nor as far as Greece conquered, not even teh civilized world as was known, so it cannot fit.

The gospel was preached throughout the entire empire and far beyond the empire. but you are making a false comparisons trying to make the two similar when they are not The Hebrew is specific where the greek can mean to the entire extent of a specific area. But the gospel went far beyond. the Roman Empire by the end of the first century. As North and South America were not inhabited at this time (afawk) It did reach the four proven inhabited continenets.

 

[Jay Ross]

In Daniel 8, it is not talking about Christian worship of any kind, but the two lambs a day which are part of Jewish daily temple worship.

Douggg, that is your personal interpretation/understanding of the scriptures, but when Israel is saved after Armageddon, they will adopt the foundation stone that will come down out of heaven as the basis of their worship, that the Christ is the Son of God, and they will be taught this by God. Jesus even pointed to this when He went up onto the mountain of transfiguration. In Daniel 9:24b, the process by which the nations will be able to obtain redemption from their sin was changed by Christ on the cross, and all of Israel will also comply with this new process for their redemption, which was also taught in the OT.

Since the cross, God has enjoyed the aroma of our sacrifice of praise and worship that rises up to Him. This is the sacrifice that will fall away when the Saints turn away from the worshipping of God to the worshipping of the beast in the distant future, over 1,000 years from now.

There is no longer a practice requirement for two lambs to be sacrificed each day since the destruction of Herod's temple in 70 AD.

Your views of what is to come does not match up with God's words because of the manner in which you are twisting the word of God to fit your personal understanding.

 

[Douggg]

Since the cross, God has enjoyed the aroma of our sacrifice of praise and worship that rises up to Him. This is the sacrifice that will fall away when the Saints turn away from the worshipping of God to the worshipping of the beast in the distant future, over 1,000 years from now.

Jay, we are living in the parable of the fig tree generation which will experience Jesus' return.

There is no longer a practice requirement for two lambs to be sacrificed each day since the destruction of Herod's temple in 70 AD.

The daily sacrifice of the two lambs is still part of the Jews religion. But it can't be done without a temple in place. There will be another temple built. One which the daily sacrifice of the two lambs will take place. And also which the Antichrist will go into, sit, and claims to have achieved God-hood.

2Thessalonains2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[Douggg]

Sorry but when the ten toes (ten horns) reign, Jesus establishes a kingdom not enters the most holy place! That has not happened yet. And all that 1844 stuff and going from the holy to the most holy makes you sound like a Jehovahs Witness and all their prognosticating.

The 1884 stuff I think is SDA teachings, not Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[ScottA]

God gives us prophecy to keep us from all the widespread deception of the here and now so that we may glimpse the eternal events of God in the eternal hereafter.

Shutting one's eyes to Bible prophecy while navigating this world is as deadly as shutting our eyes to the road while navigating rush hour traffic.

I was suggesting rising above the rush hour traffic.

Having ones eyes open while seeing through a glass dimly, is not without insight along the way. But we are far from being "along the way." The hour is late, and therefore doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result--well, is quite insane.

Biblically speaking, the eleventh hour places us dangerously close to the brick wall and gulf or chasm guarded by flaming swords of fire. Under the circumstances, the best course of action is not to proceed with well intended measures and speed, but rather to come to a crawl, taking care not to be run over by those who don't perceive the danger.

What does that look like?

It looks like a time, times, and half a time coming to the full stop of "time no longer" just before the sounding of the seventh angel. And that--that looks like no more "timeline."

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, we are living in the parable of the fig tree generation which will experience Jesus' return.


The daily sacrifice of the two lambs is still part of the Jews religion. But it can;t be done with a temple in place. There will be another temple built. One which the daily sacrifice of the two lambs will take place. And also which the Antichrist will go into, sit, and claims to have achieved God-hood.

2Thessalonains2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Douggg, there is no way what you are advocating is correct. It is just so wrong.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg, there is no way what you are advocating is correct. It is just so wrong.

I meant to say "without a temple in place". I went back and corrected my typo in that post.

 

[Phoneman777]

I agree with Futurists--the Pope is not the Antichrist.

The "office of the papacy" is the antichrist - a system by which popes stand "in the place of Christ" or "in behalf of Christ" or "instead of Christ".

That's what "antichrist" means.

He may be allied with him in the future, but not now. The Reformers saw a time when the Pope was terribly corrupt, and I don't blame them for calling him out at that time. But to perennially call him that, simply because he holds the office of Pope, is absurd and wrong.

The Reformers didn't base their ideas on current events, but on HISTORY - hence, "Protestant Historicism". The Biblical evidence which establishes the papacy as "antichrist" go all the way back.

We likely agree that the Antichrist arises out of formerly Christian Europe, and that the apostate Church will ally with him. But that time is not yet. We should reach out to all, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Separatist, and Pagan.

The proof that the Antichrist arose long ago in history is right there in Daniel, which says the "Little Horn" Antichrist will pluck up "3 of the first horns" which came and attacked Rome.

History confirms that the papacy had the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths wiped out, accused by the papacy as "arian" or "disbelieving in the divinity of Christ".

This is what Christians have done to Jews, branding them as heretics and apostates with no concern for their Salvation. If Jews were bad at the time of Christ, and simply ignorant today, why treat them today as if they are still crucifying Christ and persecuting Christians? Why not reach out to them with the Gospel that can save them?

God wants Jews to be saved - what He doesn't want is the Church handing over to Israel the titles and prerogatives He's bestowed up her after His permanent rejection of Israel.

I could care less what Spurgeon and the Reformers believed in their time in this regard. It doesn't apply now.

Everyone has to decide for themselves: either the Antichrist is the papacy, or a past or future antichrist which exist to deflect attention from themselves.

 

[Phoneman777]

I was suggesting rising above the rush hour traffic.

Having ones eyes open while seeing through a glass dimly, is not without insight along the way. But we are far from being "along the way." The hour is late, and therefore doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result--well, is quite insane.

Biblically speaking, the eleventh hour places us dangerously close to the brick wall and gulf or chasm guarded by flaming swords of fire. Under the circumstances, the best course of action is not to proceed with well intended measures and speed, but rather to come to a crawl, taking care not to be run over by those who don't perceive the danger.

What does that look like?

It looks like a time, times, and half a time coming to the full stop of "time no longer" just before the sounding of the seventh angel. And that--that looks like no more "timeline."

"time, times, and half a time" are also "1260 days" or "42 months" or "3 1/2 years" - all symbolic expressions for the same 1,260 years period reign of the papacy, from 538 to 1798.

 

[Phoneman777]

I provided those quotes from the Judaism 101 site to show what they are looking for in the messiah - and how they will mistake the Antichrist person as being their messiah.

Jews have zero to do with end times prophecy.

 

[Douggg]

That's what "antichrist" means.

"Anti" - "instead of' and/or "against"

Christ - King of Israel messiah

Mark 1532 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

 

[Douggg]

Jews have zero to do with end times prophecy.

What ?

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Matthew 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand : )

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.