Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

[Timtofly]

SEE Post #288

Really?

The gathering of the kingdom ain't got nothing to do with the gathering of the kingdom?

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory... When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

"But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first."

 

[David in NJ]

Really?

The gathering of the kingdom ain't got nothing to do with the gathering of the kingdom?

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory... When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

"But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first."

LORD Yeshua's words are Perfect and never in error.

Your understanding of what is written has missed the Center of the Target.

The "FIRST" to be Resurrected(Kingdom Glory) are those under the New Covenant Blood of Messiah.

The "LAST" to be Resurrected unto Glory are those who died in Faith under the Old Covenant.

Thus FULLING Messiah's Prophecy of; "the first shall be last......."

Furthermore, there will be ONLY ONE Resurrection of the Just and ONLY at His Second Coming!

 

[David in NJ]

God gave the answer in that verse. You all seem to miss which tribulation we are talking about.

The poster said no Scripture could be found. He must have forgotten that verse.

SEE Post#302

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first."

Do you ever interpret any scripture in context? That has absolutely nothing to do with the rapture at all, let alone anything to do with when the rapture will occur in relation to the tribulation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

????????????????????????????????????

When did God ever say: "I will pre-trib rapture My Church"

Never. Instead we see Jesus saying things like this:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

If Jesus prayed for His followers to not be taken out of the world in order to avoid evil and tribulation, then why would we think that would ever happen? It's complete nonsense. We won't be taken out of the world until the time when Jesus puts an end to evil in the world. In the meantime, He is perfectly capable of protecting us from evil and tribulation while we are still here.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Timtofly]

LORD Yeshua's words are Perfect and never in error.

Your understanding of what is written has missed the Center of the Target.

The "FIRST" to be Resurrected(Kingdom Glory) are those under the New Covenant Blood of Messiah.

The "LAST" to be Resurrected unto Glory are those who died in Faith under the Old Covenant.

Thus FULLING Messiah's Prophecy of; "the first shall be last......."

Furthermore, there will be ONLY ONE Resurrection of the Just and ONLY at His Second Coming!

Since we are not talking about dead people, what point are you making?

So you are saying all have to physically die and Paul was wrong that some would actually be alive?

Then the NT would be first raptured out of their graves, and then the OT will be raptured out of their graves? Now who is projecting their opinion onto Scripture changing the subject to a resurrection?

The point is that at the Second Coming, people will be alive on the earth. The NT church will be raptured first. Then Jesus will deal directly with Jacob and all left alive on the earth of Jacob. Obviously Jacob was the first to have a relationship with God. Those after the Cross were the last. So the church will be removed first as the late comers, and then Jacob will be judged accordingly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Since we are not talking about dead people, what point are you making?

So you are saying all have to physically die and Paul was wrong that some would actually be alive?

Then the NT would be first raptured out of their graves, and then the OT will be raptured out of their graves? Now who is projecting their opinion onto Scripture changing the subject to a resurrection?

The point is that at the Second Coming, people will be alive on the earth. The NT church will be raptured first. Then Jesus will deal directly with Jacob and all left alive on the earth of Jacob. Obviously Jacob was the first to have a relationship with God. Those after the Cross were the last. So the church will be removed first as the late comers, and then Jacob will be judged accordingly.

You were talking about the rapture, so that is what he was addressing. Are you somehow not aware that the resurrection of the dead in Christ will occur at the time of the rapture, as indicated by Paul in 1 Thess 4:14-17? Paul said they (the dead in Christ) will first be resurrected and then the believers who are alive at the time will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Is there anything you don't understand about that?

 

[Timtofly]

Do you ever interpret any scripture in context? That has absolutely nothing to do with the rapture at all, let alone anything to do with when the rapture will occur in relation to the tribulation.

That may be your opinion.

Obviously you cannot point out any Scripture to the contrary, or you would have.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That may be your opinion.

Obviously you cannot point out any Scripture to the contrary, or you would have.

You are the one who made the claim that the last being first and the first being last has something to do with the rapture. So, the onus is on you to prove that. So, why don't you quote the scriptures which talk about the last being first and first being last and show exactly how they have something to do with the rapture. Can you do that? You should be able to back up your claims if you want to be taken seriously. But, I've never had the impression that you've wanted to be taken seriously.

 

[Timtofly]

Never. Instead we see Jesus saying things like this:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

If Jesus prayed for His followers to not be taken out of the world in order to avoid evil and tribulation, then why would we think that would ever happen? It's complete nonsense. We won't be taken out of the world until the time when Jesus puts an end to evil in the world. In the meantime, He is perfectly capable of protecting us from evil and tribulation while we are still here.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Well here is my opinion, since that is what you will point out anyways.

Jesus wanted His followers to leave earth at that point in time, but He knew they could not, until God had finished His work through them.

The way you think, we should obviously not even physically die, but all the church should live for thousands of years, because all had to live physically on earth until the very end.

You do realize that death is just as much an escape as a rapture?

The church is not taken out to avoid anything. When God says it is time to go, we go, even if your theology forbids God from His Sovereign will.

 

[Timtofly]

You were talking about the rapture, so that is what he was addressing. Are you somehow not aware that the resurrection of the dead in Christ will occur at the time of the rapture, as indicated by Paul in 1 Thess 4:14-17? Paul said they (the dead in Christ) will first be resurrected and then the believers who are alive at the time will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Is there anything you don't understand about that?

Then you are taking the verse out of context. There is no resurrection mentioned in those verses. You should already know that I accept all the church is currently physically enjoying Paradise, and do not even need a resurrection, because they have already experienced the first resurrection.

It is you all who add a resurrection into the text.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well here is my opinion, since that is what you will point out anyways.

We're all sharing our opinions, so that isn't something that needs to be pointed out. Unless someone is claiming that their opinions are facts.

Jesus wanted His followers to leave earth at that point in time, but He knew they could not, until God had finished His work through them.

What is this based on? Shouldn't we go by what He actually did which was to pray that God the Father would not take them out of the world at that time?

The way you think, we should obviously not even physically die, but all the church should live for thousands of years, because all had to live physically on earth until the very end.

That isn't the way I think at all. What in the world is this based on? Misrepresenting my view does nothing to support your case. It just makes you look like a liar.

You do realize that death is just as much an escape as a rapture?

Either way we're taken off of the earth. I never said otherwise. What is your point? Do you even have one?

The church is not taken out to avoid anything. When God says it is time to go, we go, even if your theology forbids God from His Sovereign will.

A typical pre-tribber would say that the church is taken off of the earth because it is not appointed to God's wrath, so that would mean it's taken off of the earth to avoid God's wrath. You are anything but typical, though, so...whatever, man.

Also, my theology does not forbid God from His Sovereign will. Once again you are misrepresenting my beliefs. Is that all you have to offer? Just making yourself look like a liar?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then you are taking the verse out of context. There is no resurrection mentioned in those verses.

LOL!!!!

I wish you were joking here, but I know you're not. What you said is hilarious regardless. Let's actually look at the text and see if your claim is correct or not, shall we?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Do you see that word "rise" in verse 16 being used in reference to "the dead in Christ"? It means to be resurrected from the dead. And you're trying to tell me there is no resurrection mentioned in these verses? Did you even read them?

 

[Timtofly]

You are the one who made the claim that the last being first and the first being last has something to do with the rapture. So, the onus is on you to prove that. So, why don't you quote the scriptures which talk about the last being first and first being last and show exactly how they have something to do with the rapture. Can you do that? You should be able to back up your claims if you want to be taken seriously. But, I've never had the impression that you've wanted to be taken seriously.

I did in post 301.

If you believe in the rapture, are people still alive on the earth or not?


"even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Jesus brings living people from Paradise to meet living people from the earth, in the sky.

So they are gathered (arise) from Paradise first, to meet us in the air. That is if we are alive. If you have gone to heaven before then, you would rise from Paradise first. Certainly you don't think they fall upside onto the earth?

But what happens is not the point. The point was when it happens.


Tell me. At the rapture, does every one on earth immediately die, even those raptured?

If not, when do those on the earth actually die? Are they not still alive until they die?

 

[Timtofly]

What is this based on? Shouldn't we go by what He actually did which was to pray that God the Father would not take them out of the world at that time?

They did not ascend when Jesus did. They lived long lives and then were martyred. They still escaped this earth. Obviously they don't have to still be alive at the rapture.

 

[Timtofly]

Also, my theology does not forbid God from His Sovereign will. Once again you are misrepresenting my beliefs. Is that all you have to offer? Just making yourself look like a liar?

Because you object that the church is raptured before God's Sovereign will, in that Jesus sets up a throne in Jerusalem, and judges the tribes of Jacob still alive on the earth.

It is called Jacob's trouble, not the church's trouble. Jeremiah 30:7

"Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."

This is in conjunction with the parable of the fig tree:

"For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah."

This happens at the end of all nations:

"For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished."

There has to be a time of trouble before things get better. But if everyone is lying dead on the earth what is the point? God will still be working with living humans after the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL!!!!

I wish you were joking here, but I know you're not. What you said is hilarious regardless. Let's actually look at the text and see if your claim is correct or not, shall we?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Do you see that word "rise" in verse 16 being used in reference to "the dead in Christ"? It means to be resurrected from the dead. And you're trying to tell me there is no resurrection mentioned in these verses? Did you even read them?

Yep, out of context. They arise from Paradise, just like we arise from the earth.

Do you think they are dead up in Paradise and need a resurrection? What about this verse:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death."

We call them the dead in Christ, but Jesus said those in Him will never see death, and that was interpreted as tasting death. Do you plan on being dead for a period of time, or alive in Christ when you leave this earth?

Are you not the one who says a first always implies a second. If they are raptured/rise first, then those on earth will be raptured/rise second.


Who is dead at the rapture, if both do the same thing? If they are dead, then we will have to be dead also to rise secondly. Seems if we are alive, then they are as well.

You think it is hilarious, but it is sad you think God brings a bunch of dead with Him at the Second Coming.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I did in post 301.

You posted gibberish in post 301. I'm asking you to actually post the verses that talk about the first being last and last being verse including all the surrounding verses for context and show how they have anything to do with the rapture. You have not done that.

If you believe in the rapture, are people still alive on the earth or not?

Yes, there will be people alive on earth when the rapture occurs, if that's what you're asking. The bodies of living believers will be changed to be immortal and they will be caught up to the Lord in the air. Living unbelievers will all be killed after that.

"even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Jesus brings living people from Paradise to meet living people from the earth, in the sky.

That is talking about the souls of the dead in Christ coming with Him. But, it also says they will be resurrected at that time which is talking about their dead bodies being resurrected to life. They will be changed to be immortal at that time.

So they are gathered (arise) from Paradise first, to meet us in the air. That is if we are alive. If you have gone to heaven before then, you would rise from Paradise first. Certainly you don't think they fall upside onto the earth?

LOL! What in the world are you trying to say here? Do you have any idea. When it talks about the dead in Christ rising first it's talking about their dead bodies being resurrected. You are unable to understand the simplest things. It's baffling. Please ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

Tell me. At the rapture, does every one on earth immediately die, even those raptured?

No, at that time living believers won't die, but instead their bodies are changed to be immortal.

If not, when do those on the earth actually die? Are they not still alive until they die?

Unbelievers will be killed at that point. That is what is indicated in passages like 2 Thess 1:7-10. When Jesus comes He will take vengeance on unbelievers after believers are gathered to Him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because you object that the church is raptured before God's Sovereign will, in that Jesus sets up a throne in Jerusalem, and judges the tribes of Jacob still alive on the earth.

What I object to is the constant nonsense that you post on this forum.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yep, out of context. They arise from Paradise, just like we arise from the earth.

Arise from Paradise, which is otherwise known as the third heaven? That's utter nonsense. Their souls will come down from paradise, not arise from paradise. Their bodies will rise from the dead and be made immortal.

Do you think they are dead up in Paradise and need a resurrection?

Paul calls them "the dead in Christ". Did you somehow miss that? They are not spiritually dead in Paradise. Their bodies are dead. So, their bodies will be resurrected. Why am I wasting my time explaining the most elementary things possible? If you can't understand something like this I don't know if you can understand anything.

What about this verse:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death."

We call them the dead in Christ, but Jesus said those in Him will never see death, and that was interpreted as tasting death. Do you plan on being dead for a period of time, or alive in Christ when you leave this earth?

Are you not the one who says a first always implies a second. If they are raptured/rise first, then those on earth will be raptured/rise second.


Who is dead at the rapture, if both do the same thing? If they are dead, then we will have to be dead also to rise secondly. Seems if we are alive, then they are as well.

You think it is hilarious, but it is sad you think God brings a bunch of dead with Him at the Second Coming.

Paul calls them "the dead in Christ". Do you think it is sad that Paul calls them that? Their souls and spirits are alive, but their bodies are dead and will be resurrected to life at that time. Very simple. Yet, you still don't get it.