Why are some interpreters not being honest with the text involving Daniel 9:27?

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Romans destroyed the temple in 70 AD.

The prince that shall come is end times. He will be of the Roman Empire, end times version of it. i.e. the EU.

You are making a mess of the prophecy. The prince that shall come was to come as of the time the prophecy was written, not still to come even today. You can't say the people of the prince destroyed the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD and then also try to say that the prince of those people wouldn't even exist until some time in the distant future from that time. That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[wooddog]

He said more than once that the new covenant is eternal, so why would you ask this? Do you know what the new covenant is?

I believe that the confirmation of the covenant by the Messiah the prince does not last only one literal week. The week spans over time from the Cross to the Last Day when Christ returns. The sacrifice and obligation is the Messiah's sacrifice on our behalf until all the Elect are secured before he ceases the sacrifice and the desolation is set up in the unfaithful church before the Second Coming. This has nothing to do with preterism's 70 AD theory or the future so-called 7 years tribulation promoted by premillennialism.

So there is a GAP? Was the new covenant made in the beginning of the week, the end of the week, or the middle of the week and 3.5 years remain? Make up your minds. Your interpretations are making no sense at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So there is a GAP? Was the new covenant made in the beginning of the week, the end of the week, or the middle of the week and 3.5 years remain? Make up your minds. Your interpretations are making no sense at all.

There's no gap in the 70th week. I'm not going to speak for him, but in my view the new covenant is eternal and it took one week/7 years (the 70th week) to confirm it. Once it was confirmed then the 70th week was over. No gap. The confirming of the covenant consisted of Christ's ministry, His death and resurrection and then the preaching of the gospel of Christ to Israel before it started going out to the Gentile nations. Very simple. But, let me know if you still don't understand.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are making a mess of the prophecy.

You believe the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 took place around 70AD as explained in your post #353, Daniel 12:1-3 clearly interprets this tribulation to be at the end of time that culminates in the future resurrection and final judgement

Your complete belief and teaching in 70AD fulfillment that you claim is seen in Matthew 24:15 & 24:21 is now in the trash can

The Great Tribulation, At The Time Of The End "At That Time" The Resurrection And Final Judgement Take Place

(The Future Great Tribulation)

Matthew 24:21KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

(The Future Great Tribulation)

Daniel 12:1-3KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

nothing is replaced.

next!

Those who you falsely accuse of believing in replacement theology agree that nothing is replaced. Next, indeed.

 

[Douggg]

The prince that shall come was to come as of the time the prophecy was written, not still to come even today

The prophecy was written over four hundred years before Jesus's first coming.

The prince that shall come is end times, when the time of the end vision (listed in Daniel 9:24) regarding the little horn person is fulfilled.

Daniel 9: 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You believe the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 took place around 70AD as explained in your post #353,

And as explained in many other posts that I've made. It's no secret that I believe that.

Daniel 12:1-3 clearly interprets this tribulation to be at the end of time that culminates in the future resurrection and final judgement

Your complete belief and teaching in 70AD fulfillment that you claim is seen in Matthew 24:15 & 24:21 is now in the trash can

The Great Tribulation, At The Time Of The End "At That Time" The Resurrection And Final Judgement Take Place

(The Future Great Tribulation)

Matthew 24:21KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

(The Future Great Tribulation)

Daniel 12:1-3KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

The tribulation before Christ returns is global. Matthew 24:15-22 does not describe a global tribulation. Jesus said let those in Judea flee to the mountains when that tribulation was about to happen. He didn't say that everyone in the world needed to flee. And the parallel account in Luke 21:20-24 says that Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies. No mention of global tribulation there, either. You're not properly differentiating between the two events (one local or regional event in 70 AD and one global event in the future).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The prophecy was written over four hundred years before Jesus's first coming.

Yeah, so? The prince was to come some time after the prophecy was written. You have the people of the supposed anti-messiah prince destroying the city and the sanctuary long before the supposed anti-messiah prince even exists, which makes no sense.

You're acting as if the prophecy says "the people of the anti-messiah prince who won't even exist until long after they are dead will destroy the city and the sanctuary". Total nonsense.

 

[Truth7t7]

And as explained in many other posts that I've made. It's no secret that I believe that.


The tribulation before Christ returns is global. Matthew 24:15-22 does not describe a global tribulation. Jesus said let those in Judea flee to the mountains when that tribulation was about to happen. He didn't say that everyone in the world needed to flee. And the parallel account in Luke 21:20-24 says that Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies. No mention of global tribulation there, either. You're not properly differentiating between the two events (one local or regional event in 70 AD and one global event in the future).

You completely deny that the tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 is the very same that's seen in Daniel 12:2, that culminates in the resurrection and final judgement at the second coming

You have been presented with the question regarding Matthew 24:21 and the great tribulation seen in post #357 without response, as you falsely claim this took place around 70AD

Matthew 24:15-31 & Daniel 12:1-3 is the very same "Future" event in the great tribulation, resurrection, second coming, and final judgement

‐------------------‐----------------------------‐---------------------

Ok you say The Great Tribulation Matt 24:21 took place around 70AD, you stated you believe the future second coming is literally seen in Matthew 24:30 below

Question: How do you have a great tribulation around 70AD and a "future Jesus" returning in the heavens immediately after this tribulation around 70AD?

(Future Great Tribulation, Second Coming, And Resurrection)

Matthew 24:15 & 29-31KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[wooddog]

There's no gap in the 70th week. I'm not going to speak for him, but in my view the new covenant is eternal and it took one week/7 years (the 70th week) to confirm it. Once it was confirmed then the 70th week was over. No gap. The confirming of the covenant consisted of Christ's ministry, His death and resurrection and then the preaching of the gospel of Christ to Israel before it started going out to the Gentile nations. Very simple. But, let me know if you still don't understand.

Your interpretation is lacking, the covenant in verse 4 is the one confirmed. It is to "Israel" Daniels people no replacement whatsoever by anyone else. The Messiah did this as the suffering servant of his father the the great and dreadful LORD GOD, the only one who could make a covenant with "Israel" and confirm it. The covenant you speak of is only to Believing Christians.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Dont Respond Not Finished

Say what now?

You completely deny that the tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 is the very same in Daniel 12:2, that culminates in the resurrection and final judgement at the second coming

That's correct. I'm glad you're at least understanding what I'm saying, whether you agree or not. That's progress.

You have been presented with the question regarding Matthew 24:21 and the great tribulation seen, as you falsely claim this took place around 70AD

I'm devastated that you disagree with me about that. I hope I can recover.

Ok you say The Great Tribulation Matt 24:21 took place around 70AD, you stated you believe the future second coming is literally seen in Matthew 24:30 below?

Question: How do you have a great tribulation around 70AD and a "future Jesus" returning in the heavens immediately after this tribulation around 70AD?

Matthew 24:29KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Verse 29 is not talking about the tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-21. It it talking about spiritual deception and tribulation, as described in verses 23-26 which would occur after the tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-21.

If you look at the account of the Olivet Discourse in Luke 21, you can see that the tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-21 and Luke 21:20-24 occurs and is followed by a time period that Luke calls "the times of the Gentiles". It is not after the tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-21, Mark 13:14-19 and Luke 21:20-24 that Jesus returns, but rather after the times of the Gentiles.

Beyond all that, you miss that Jesus was asked two questions. One was regarding when the temple buildings would be destroyed. The disciples asked Him about that because He specifically said they would be destroyed. Which you deny despite how clear it is that He said that. The other question was regarding the timing of His future coming at the end of the age. So, there are two different events in view in the Olivet Discourse and both futurists like yourself as well as preterists miss that.

 

[TribulationSigns]

So there is a GAP?

There is no gap! The final week is the whole New Testament period, starting from the Cross, after the 69th week, to the Second Coming. There is no gap between 69th week and 70th week, as you thought.

The 7 and 62 weeks prophesied are specifically only to the coming of Messiah the Prince. Then it continues, after the 62 weeks Messiah is cut off and He confirms the covenant for 1 week. It doesn't say when Messiah comes he is immediately cut off, because that would be ridiculous and confusing. There has to be time between Messiah's coming, and His cutting off, including his earthly ministry. The prophesy is specifically to the coming of Messiah, and the word of God shows this official fulfillment was in 29 AD. Then the prophesy continues, after the 69 weeks Messiah is cut off, but not for Himself. So the question is, "when, after," and the answer is, obviously at the cross.

Again, these are not literal weeks or time periods that we add up like years, like you thought. This last week has lasted 2000 years, the 62 previous only 434, and the 7 before that only 38 years. There are no missing years, there is no gap between 29AD and 33AD because there was never a prophesy of literal years. The 70th week is after the coming of Messiah and after the 69 weeks, as was prophesied. The cutting off of Messiah was not prophesied to be 69 and 1 week. They aren't weeks at all, it is literally 70 sevens or "complete" time periods. I think you are trying to count the 69 weeks as literal years. That's a no, no. They aren't literally 70 weeks of years. There is one key directing us to the Jubilee period, and its not literal years. There is another key to the coming of Messiah, and its not 62 years. And another for the whole New Covenant period, and its not a week (or 7). Yet there is complete symmetry, harmony, and cohesiveness to it all. Three distinct periods, one "COMPLETE" time signified by the number 70.

Actually, I think that is where a lot of date setters get into trouble, attempting to add literal years, when God has never prophesied it that way. Whether 70 weeks of Daniel, 1260 days in the wilderness, 1000 years of Revelation, 2300 days before the sanctuary will be cleansed, or the 3 1/2 days the two witnesses lay in the streets. God doesn't work that way!! These are all spiritual lengths of time. There are no gaps in these times, because they were never meant as literal years. They are "KEYS" directing us to certain spiritual truths occurring at certain times. The anointing, the Church age, the New Covenant Millennial period, sacrifice ceasing, etc.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your interpretation is lacking,

Yet you seem unable to show how it is supposedly lacking.

the covenant in verse 4 is the one confirmed.

Verse 4 of what? I thought we were talking about Daniel 9:27.

It is to "Israel" Daniels people no replacement whatsoever by anyone else.

Who said anything about anyone being replaced? Slow down and think about what you're saying and whether or not you are making any sense.

The Messiah did this as the suffering servant of his father the the great and dreadful LORD GOD, the only one who could make a covenant with "Israel" and confirm it. The covenant you speak of is only to Believing Christians.

I don't know what you're talking about. What covenant exactly are you talking about? Be specific. When was it made? What does it entail exactly?

 

[Truth7t7]

You're not properly differentiating between the two events (one local or regional event in 70 AD and one global event in the future).

(There is no "Two Events") in a 70AD event and a future global event seen below, that's 100% false bogus malarkey!

"The events seen below are all future", there's no 1900+ year gap seen below, its nothing more than mans pride in trying to keep a false teaching alive

Luke 21:20-27KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

There's No 1900+ Year Gap Seen Here Between Verses 24 & 25, your pride has you blinded, as you cling to your false teaching in 70AD fulfillment

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 

[covenantee]

that is still waiting for their messiah the little horn prince

They're certainly still waiting for messiah. I'm not sure that they identify him as the little horn prince, however.

 

[covenantee]

(There is no "Two Events) a 70AD event and a future global event seen below, that's 100% false, bogus malarkey!

"The events seen below are all future", there's no 1900+ year gap seen below, thats bogus malarkey, its nothing more than mans pride in trying to keep a false teaching alive

Luke 21:20-27KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

There's No 1900+ Year Gap Seen Here Between Verses 24 & 25, your pride has you blinded, as you cling to your false teaching in 70AD fulfillment

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

The Judaean Christians fled Jerusalem and Judaea prior to the destruction of 70 AD. They remembered Jesus' warning, heeded it, and survived.

Thankfully, they weren't deluded dispensational futurists like you.

Thankfully, they didn't believe dispensational bogus malarkey.

They would have been dead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

(There is no "Two Events") in a 70AD event and a future global event seen below, that's 100% false bogus malarkey!

LOL. Says the guy who can't even acknowledge that Jesus said in Matthew 24:1-2 (also recorded in Mark 13:1-2 and Luke 21:6-7) that the temple buildings standing at the time He was on the earth would be destroyed. Talk about "bogus malarkey"!

"The events seen below are all future", there's no 1900+ year gap seen below, its nothing more than mans pride in trying to keep a false teaching alive

Luke 21:20-27KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

So, it's just a coincidence that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies in 70 AD and then destroyed and made desolate. And it's just a coincidence that many people fled Judea into the mountains around that time as Jesus warned them to do. And it's just a coincidence that many fell by the sword and many were led away captive into all nations back then just as Jesus said would happen. I see. It's a wonder that you even accept that the prophecies about Jesus's first coming were fulfilled with as much as you want to think that everything will be fulfilled in the future.

There's No 1900+ Year Gap Seen Here Between Verses 24 & 25, your pride has you blinded, as you cling to your false teaching in 70AD fulfillment

You are the blind one. You are 100% filled with pride and are unteachable. That is why you have so many false interpretations. You rely completely on your own limited understanding, which is never a good idea for any of us. Pray for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Judaean Christians fled Jerusalem and Judaea prior to the destruction of 70 AD. They remembered Jesus' warning, heeded it, and survived.

Thankfully, they weren't deluded dispensational futurists like you.

Thankfully, they didn't believe dispensational bogus malarkey.

They would have been dead.

Absolutely right. Thank God that they actually understood and accepted what Jesus taught, unlike these dispensational futurists who are completely lacking in discernment.

 

[Phoneman777]

This is not about the new covenant, Have you read daniel 9 : 1- 19? I can't believe you have, because you would not keep misunderstanding what and who the 70 weeks are about

Your Dispensationalism prevents you from seeing the big picture, friend. God's will has always been the same: save mankind by sending His Son on a mercy mission to grant us all grace. The common denominator of all covenants is that.

As for the 70 Weeks, the New Covenant was to be "confirmed" for 7 years to Israel before it would be carried to the rest of the world at the end of the 70 Weeks, plain and simple.

I am not worried about what it will do. I am worried about the fact God said it will be, and that it will be used, and it will be defiled. I just take God at his word.

Would you ever refer to your mom's house as the "best little whorehouse near your house"? Neither would God ever refer to a blasphemous rebuilt temple in Jerusalem as "the temple of God" - for the same reason.

He will rule over the whole world. He will rule in Jerusalem. He will rule from the temple.

Yes, the "temple of God" which is the church.

In fact. all the families of the world will come once a year to worship. Failure to do so will cause God to punish that family

Where do you read this?

Yes I read English, I also understand nonsense when I see it..Your trying to excuse it away.. I just take what it says and believe it.

No, just explain it as it should be, without Jesuit Futurist Scripture twisting.

It was confirmed in one day.

"...He shall confirm the covenant with many for ONE WEEK..."

Jesus did not hang on a cross for 7 years.

Course He didn't.

How long did it come up for you to come up with this, or is it what you were taught??

It is immediately evident to anyone who hasn't be seduced by Jesuit Futurism.

IT DOES NOT SAY IT WILL TAKE 7 YEARS. IT SAYS THE COVENANT IS CONFIRMED FOR 7 YEARS.. DO YOU KNOW HOW TO READ ENGLISH????

Take a deep breath and re-read what you've written here...

Excuse me sir but the gentiles have been part of the covenant since before the formation of Israel (see ninevah and other gentile believers)

The covenant God had with the nation of Israel however. is a different promise altogether.

You're switching back and forth between covenant participants and covenant purposes...while the participants may have varied, the purpose has always been the same: save all sinners by grace.

Replacement theology is not a valid theology, it is flawed. and rejects that God keeps his promises

It's incredible how many professing Christians think it's cool for those who occupy the ancient land of Israel to say Jesus is an "imposter" and a "son of a whore" and is "in hell boiling in excrement" rather than accepting the truth that the "Israel of God" are those who "walk by this rule" of the "new creature in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 6:15-16 KJV)

lol.. read Lev 26, Ezek 37, Jer 23, Jer 31, Jer 33, I can go on and on and on..

Purpose or participants?

The church has been since the beginning of time.. Israel was in charge, then the gentiles came to be in charge, But Paul made it clear that we gentiles should not boast.. That God is not done, in fact. All israel will be saved. and it will be restored (romans 11)

LOL You semite fan boys don't understand that the "natural branches" have been broken off and have to be "grafted in" just like "unnatural branches". Is there any differentiation, distinction, any preeminence of the one over the other? No!

Your not the israel of God. Your the Body of God, (if your saved)

The "Israel of God' are those who "walk by this rule" of the "new creature in Christ".

Are those who call Christ "imposter" and "son of a whore" and claim He's "boiling in excrement" walking by that rule?

I am worried about what Daniel 9 says, and who it is written to. and the false application and interpretation of it.

No need to worry...the 70 Weeks were fulfilled right on time from 457 B.C. to 34 A.D. They were "cut off" so that when they were fulfilled, all could be confident that the entire 2300 Days from which the 70 were cut off would also be fulfilled: the "cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You completely deny that the tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 is the very same that's seen in Daniel 12:2, that culminates in the resurrection and final judgement at the second coming

You have been presented with the question regarding Matthew 24:21 and the great tribulation seen in post #357 without response, as you falsely claim this took place around 70AD

Are you seriously trying to criticize me for not responding to a post made about 150 posts before this one? I get many replies to my posts on the various threads I post on. I can't be expected to reply to every single one. And I could easily miss one when there are posts coming quickly one after another. I am not obligated to respond to any post, but I do respond to a vast majority of them that are directed to me. So, get out of here with this nonsense.