Why are some interpreters not being honest with the text involving Daniel 9:27?

[TribulationSigns]

then its not the covenant in vs 27

vs 27: Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week

hence there is no further discussion

One week? There has been a lot of speculation and guessing of what this means. We've heard everything from 70 years, to 7 years. The reason that we have all these different ideas about this final week, is because people are not letting the scripture interpret this week. They are doing a lot of assuming, and their studies dripping with speculation of when this Covenant is confirmed. I say that respectfully, but with passion. For we 'must' let the Bible itself tell us what it means. As Righteous Joseph said when asked his interpretation, "..Do not Interpretations belong to God?" He was right! And God speaks to us today through His word, not speculation. Let's look within His Holy Word and see what God declares.

There is a simple way to determine what period this is. We know From the context (after the 62 weeks) that it starts after the cross, after Messiah the Prince is 'Cut Off.' And we know that this Prince Confirms ([gabar], a Hebrew word which actually is Strengthened) the Covenant after these 62 weeks. Therefore, the week cannot start until Christ is cut Off! Period! Moreover, we know that in the middle of this final week, the sacrifice and offering will cease, and that at the end of this last week, is the consummation. This much is clearly told us in the verse. And so God has told us that that this week is from the cross (after 62 weeks when Messiah is cut off), and goes all the way from there, to the Consummation (the End of the World). Not one literal week or 7 literal years. And so what need is there to speculate? On several levels we see that it signifies the New Covenant week. In fact, the only reason anyone would speculate differently would be if they didn't understand HOW sacrifice and offering ceases in the middle of the week. many people believe this must refers to the 'literal' sacrifice of lambs in the literal temple either in 70AD or future third temple, and so they are confused by a New Covenant week, with sacrifice ceasing, after the cross.

But this truth is confirmed again in Daniel chapter 12, as it talks about the last half of this new Covenant week as Time, Times and one half (3 1/2), a time of Trouble for God's people, and when the taking away of the daily or continual sacrifice would occur.

Daniel 12:5-6

• "..How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
  
  
• And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up His right hand and His left hand unto the heaven, and SWARE by Him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and WHEN He shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the Holy People, All these things shall be finished."

Daniel 12:11-12

• "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
  
  
• Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

This is when the daily or 'continual' shall be taken away. In the Midst of the week. And it's not at the Cross as many of you think, it's just before the Abomination of desolation. It's when the candlesticks are killed after the testimony of the two witnesses is finished (Rev. 11). When He who restrains iniquity is taken out of the midst (2nd Thess 2). After all Elect are sealed who are to be sealed (Rev. 7). In simple terms, it is after the fulness of the Gentiles (unsaved people) have come in, and all Israel is Saved. Then and only then is a final devastating judgment brought upon the unfaithful Church, a great departing from the faith (1st Timothy 4:1) where there is Apostasy and remaineth no sacrifice. i.e., All Israel has been Saved, and no one else remains to be Saved. And if this time of tribulation is not shortened, because no one else is being saved, there would not be any saved flesh left on earth. But for the sake of the Elect, these days shall be shortened.

 

[covenantee]

You tell me, Your the one who follows that theology. What promise was given to Israel. that people claim now belongs to the church

There is nothing that the Church replaces.

It does not replace Israel's physical DNA.

It does not replace Israel's opportunity to come to Christ.

Thus, the claim of "replacement theology" is abject nonsense.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Here is a great example of replacement theology in basic terms

They will never be restored as a nation

The church is now the "Israel of God"

 

[Eternally Grateful]

One week? There has been a lot of speculation and guessing of what this means.

lets just take the defenition in the passage itself.

70 weeks are determined for your people (literally 70 sevens)

so each week is for a length of seven years.

using this interpretation and keeping in step with the flow. 1 week equals 7 years.

there is absolutely no reason to believe anythign else.

We are also told in the middle of the week. He breaks his own covenant.. We know from other texts, this happens in 3.5 years.. and we are told after, he will reign for another 3.5 years, or as is said elswhere, times time and half a time

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is nothing that the Church replaces.

It does not replace Israel's physical DNA.

No one is claiming this is what it means..

It does not replace Israel's opportunity to come to Christ.

No one is claiming this is what it means

Thus, the claim of "replacement theology" is abject nonsense.

No, it is still set in stone.. Because the above to examples is not what it is.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You tell me, Your the one who follows that theology. What promise was given to Israel. that people claim now belongs to the church

Matthew 21:42-44

• "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
• And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."

You can call it whatever you want, but the message God gives is clear. God's visible Kingdom or congregation upon earth up to this time was represented by the nation of Israel. But Christ is now making it clear that that kingdom of God representation shall be taken from the Nation of Israel and given to a nation that will bring forth the fruits thereof. Namely, the congregation that is the church would now hold that distinction. And let's be clear, these words are neither polysemous, subtle, abstruse or difficult. They're not subject to private interpretations or out of context revisions. The Messiah and Kingdom of Israel that prophesy foretold was rejected by them, and therefore they were cursed with blindness (in part) to never bear fruit as a nation again, as they would no longer be the representatives of God's Kingdom on earth. Christ clearly taught that the Kingdom has been taken from them, and given to the church, who will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit, rather than the flesh. He of course context reveals as the foundation stone of this restoration of the Kingdom of Christ. Again, use whatever word you choose, call it whatever you want, the Biblical facts of Scripture are without ambiguity concerning their judgment, what that concerned, and who are the children of God and who are not. i.e., anyone who rejects Christ, by definition cannot be the children of the Kingdom.

Acts 4:10-12

• "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
• This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
• Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Israel cannot be saved by still rejecting Christ, cannot be the kingdom, cannot be the children of God or the election. EVER AGAIN! Neither is there salvation in any other person, place or thing. There is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. So while you talk about a miracle of the birth of a nation in 1948AD that you also say could never have been un-birthed or not a nation in the first place, the Bible says differently. Biblical facts, versus visions and delusions of grandeur. You can call it Supersessionism, You can call it Restoration Theology, you can call it Replacement Theology, you can call it Antisemitism, but God calls it biblical fact.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Matthew 21:42-44

• "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
• And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."

You can call it whatever you want, but the message God gives is clear. God's visible Kingdom or congregation upon earth up to this time was represented by the nation of Israel. But Christ is now making it clear that that kingdom of God representation shall be taken from the Nation of Israel and given to a nation that will bring forth the fruits thereof. Namely, the congregation that is the church would now hold that distinction. And let's be clear, these words are neither polysemous, subtle, abstruse or difficult. They're not subject to private interpretations or out of context revisions. The Messiah and Kingdom of Israel that prophesy foretold was rejected by them, and therefore they were cursed with blindness (in part) to never bear fruit as a nation again, as they would no longer be the representatives of God's Kingdom on earth. Christ clearly taught that the Kingdom has been taken from them, and given to the church, who will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit, rather than the flesh. He of course context reveals as the foundation stone of this restoration of the Kingdom of Christ. Again, use whatever word you choose, call it whatever you want, the Biblical facts of Scripture are without ambiguity concerning their judgment, what that concerned, and who are the children of God and who are not. i.e., anyone who rejects Christ, by definition cannot be the children of the Kingdom.

Acts 4:10-12

• "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
• This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
• Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Israel cannot be saved by still rejecting Christ, cannot be the kingdom, cannot be the children of God or the election. EVER AGAIN! Neither is there salvation in any other person, place or thing. There is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. So while you talk about a miracle of the birth of a nation in 1948AD that you also say could never have been un-birthed or not a nation in the first place, the Bible says differently. Biblical facts, versus visions and delusions of grandeur. You can call it Supersessionism, You can call it Restoration Theology, you can call it Replacement Theology, you can call it Antisemitism, but God calls it biblical fact.

then why is the church not living in the land given Israel in peace because she has obeyed God?

Why is the church still scattered amongst the nations, which was the punishment for Israel for sinning against God?

 

[covenantee]

Here is a great example of replacement theology in basic terms

So your claim is that Israel replaces the Church.

AKA replacement ideology/biology.

 

[TribulationSigns]

70 weeks are determined for your people (literally 70 sevens)

Dan 9:24
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Do you even know who are the people and the holy city here that God is talking about? Do you think it is strictly for the Jews only and about the physical city of Jersualem with her physical temple? Or did God talked about ALL Elect in Christ who also happen to be Daniel's people in Christ? And the Holy City is New Jersualem, the bride of Christ whom He has confirmed a covenant with?! Have you thought about this?! Daniel 9:24-27 is all about God Himself, the Messiah the prince, and His People only! Not about some evil prince coming. Absurd.

there is absolutely no reason to believe anythign else.

We are also told in the middle of the week. He breaks his own covenant.. We know from other texts, this happens in 3.5 years.. and we are told after, he will reign for another 3.5 years, or as is said elswhere, times time and half a time

Sorry, you do not understand the spiritual nature of the final week started with Christ's confirmation of a covenant with ALL of His People with one week that lasts until the Second Coming. Not 7 years.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So your claim is that Israel replaces the Church.

AKA replacement ideology/biology.

Thats not my claim

thats the claim of those who State Israel will not be restored. and 70 week prophesy is already fulfilled.

And nice try, I never said a word about biology..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Dan 9:24
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Do you even know who are the people and the holy city here that God is talking about here?

Did you read the fist part of dan 9 or like many just skip that part?

Dan 9: 5 we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. 6 Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. 7 O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You.

to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. 10 We have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. 11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.

13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth.

15 now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

6 “O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us

17. for the Lord’s sake cause Your face to shine on Your sanctuary, which is desolate. 18 O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies. 19 O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”

Is daniel talking about the church (spiritual Israel as you call it) who sinned against God? About the church (spiritual Israel as you call it) who is punished because of their sins and iniquites? The church, (spiritual Israel as you call it) in which the law of moses said alol these things would happen?

Or is he talking about the nation of Israel. which because of her sin, was destroyed by babylon,, scattered because of her sin according to the law of moses (lev 26) and who's city and sanctuary lie desolate?

Do you think it is strictly Jews and physical city Jersualem only? Or did God talk about ALL Elect in Christ who happen to be Daniel's people in Christ? And the Holy City is New Jersualem, the bride of Christ whom He has confirmed a covenant with?! Have you thought about this?! Daniel 9:24-27 is all about God Himself, the Messiah the prince, and His People only! Not about some evil prince coming to create the final week and then break it. Absurd.

See above.

sorry, you do not understand the spiritual nature of the final week started with Christ's confirmation of a covenant with ALL of His People with one week that lasts until the Second Coming. Not 7 years.

Sorry

You do not understand the prophet understanding of the literal events which Gabriel spoke of concerning the 70 weeks. and daniels people

 

[TribulationSigns]

Did you read the fist part of dan 9 or like many just skip that part?

I already am aware of the "first part" of Daniel 9. That does not prove my position wrong. We are all Israel in Christ, aren't we? We all sinned against Christ.

Dan 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Do you honestly think all the above that God did apply to the Jews and national Israel only? Wrong. You need to learn to compare everything with the rest of Scripture.

For example, look at making a reconciliation for iniquity:

Hebrews 9:26

• "...but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

2nd Corinthians 5:18

• "And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
• To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

This is what Daniel means by making an end of sins and that reconciliation is made for iniquity. This verse 24 of Daniel chapter 9 is clearly speaking of the Messiah's atonement for the sins of Israel, by the work of the cross. The question is what Israel? Is it national Israel, or Israel in Christ?

Luke 1:68-70

• "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
• And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
• As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:"

There the prophecy is fulfillled as Daniel's people Israel has their Messiah come, that their sins would be closed up (or come to an end), and that reconciliation would be made. And that is exactly what Christ, who was Israel's Messiah, did.

Hebrews 2:17

• "Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of The People."

The same as the Prophesy we read in Daniel, that Messiah would come for the reconciliation of the sins of His people. And this was fulfilled in Christ's atonement.

Obviously not just for the Jews but all in Christ. The Israel of God, Selah!

Is daniel talking about the church (spiritual Israel as you call it) who sinned against God?

Yes, I explain one example above.

About the church (spiritual Israel as you call it) who is punished because of their sins and iniquites?

Yes, we all sinned against God before we were born again. Just as Israel was.

Or is he talking about the nation of Israel. which because of her sin, was destroyed by babylon,, scattered because of her sin according to the law of moses (lev 26) and who's city and sanctuary lie desolate?

Here you fail to understand. The woman of Israel, the bride of Christ, spanned from Abel to Last Elect. In the Old Testament, Israel as a nation represented the kingdom of God on Earth. In the New Testament, the church represents the kingdom of God on Earth. We all are one people! We are all Daniel's people. We are all one Holy City... in Christ. That is why our sin was nailed to the cross by faith in Christ just as the Jews nailed their sins to the Cross by faith through their physical temples, sacrifices etc.

You do not understand the prophet understanding of the literal events which Gabriel spoke of concerning the 70 weeks. and daniels people

Try me. :-)

 

[covenantee]

Thats not my claim

thats the claim of those who State Israel will not be restored. and 70 week prophesy is already fulfilled.

And nice try, I never said a word about biology..

That's your claim. God's OT nation was Israel. His NT nation is the Church. Nowhere in the NT is Israel any longer described as a nation. But the Church is: Matthew 21:43; 1 Peter 2:5,9

God did not have two nations in the OT, and He does not have two nations in the NT.

When you refer to national Israel, are you not referring to ethnic biological Israel?

Or are you referring to pharisaic Babylonic talmudic Israel?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The messiah (the true messiah):

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

The prince that shall come (the anti-messiah):

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And what sanctuary would the people of this supposed anti-messiah destroy?

 

[Douggg]

And what sanctuary would the people of this supposed anti-messiah destroy?

The temple in 70 AD.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How about this

I will humble myself and say I guess you could say Jesus confirmed and ETERNAL covenant with his blood (or more than likely when he was resurrected)

if you can humble yourself and admit that the he of vs 27 confirms one covenant for 7 years. as written.

I'm not going to admit something that isn't true. God forbid. As written, it doesn't say that the covenant itself lasts for 7 years, it says it takes 7 years to confirm the covenant.

Why do I need to admit anything for you to acknowledge what Jesus accomplished with His death and resurrection? That's lunacy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The temple in 70 AD.

Wow, I wasn't expecting this answer. So, who was the anti-messiah prince who was around in 70 AD whose people destroyed the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD?

 

[wooddog]

That's your claim. God's OT nation was Israel. His NT nation is the Church. Nowhere in the NT is Israel any longer described as a nation. But the Church is: Matthew 21:43; 1 Peter 2:5,9

God did not have two nations in the OT, and He does not have two nations in the NT.

When you refer to national Israel, are you not referring to ethnic/biological Israel?

Or are you referring to pharisaic Babylonic talmudic Israel?

that is still waiting for their messiah the little horn prince

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your right, it is not in the bible. Neither is the word trinity

again, it is the name given to a theology that claims the church replaces Israel hence the term replacement theology

What people who you accuse of adhering to "replacement theology" actually believe is not that anyone gets replaced, but rather that Gentile believers join together with Israelite believers together as one body of God's people. Otherwise known as the body of Christ, the church or spiritual Israel. God's people have always been those who have faith like Abraham. Before Jesus came it was primarily the people of Israel who had faith, but once Jesus came and the gospel went out to the Gentiles then they too were able to part of the people of God. Who was replaced in that scenario? No one.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Do you agree and accept what is taught here? Does this describe anyone as being replaced? No. Yet, passages like this describe what people who you falsely claim believe in "replacement theology" actually believe and emphasize. Not replacement. Unity among God's people to where it doesn't make any difference if someone is Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free (see Galatians 3:26-29).

Jesus made the two groups (Israelite believers and Gentiles believers) one, so why do you try to keep them separate?

 

[Douggg]

Wow, I wasn't expecting this answer. So, who was the anti-messiah prince who was around in 70 AD whose people destroyed the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD?

The Romans destroyed the temple in 70 AD.

The prince that shall come is end times. He will be of the Roman Empire, end times version of it. i.e. the EU.