Paul taught that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality
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Behold
Well-Known Member
We are right there with Jesus. Forever and ever.
This is our "Eternal Life" "in Christ".
Where Jesus is, we are also, and where we are, Jesus is "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory".
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I am not seeing how Revelation is a series of parallel views covering the earthly ministry of Jesus until the end of the kingdom.
The majority of Revelation deals with the Second Coming, and what happens after the Second Coming.
How can Revelation be about the first century ministry of Jesus, when Amil do not accept even one verse in Revelation as Jesus even being on the earth?
That's... not how to see it. Revelation is a series of parallel views covering the time period since the earthly ministry of Jesus until He returns. The kingdom is here now, but not yet in its fullness, not yet consummated.
Disagree. The majority of Revelation "deals with " the time before the Second Coming.
As I have said several times, the cycles parallel one another. All cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming. But each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. Moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself. I'll add to this and say here that we can summarize the focus of the different cycles as follows:
Commission
Cycle 1: Seven seals 4:1-8:1 ~ Commission of covenant judgment in heaven; the origin of God’s triumph.
The prosecution of war
Cycle 2: Seven trumpets 8:2-11:19 ~ effects on earth
Cycle 3: Seven symbolic histories 12:1-14:20 ~ depth of conflict
Cycle 4: Seven bowls 15:1-16:21 ~ effects on earth, further intensity
Elimination
Cycle 5: Seven messages of judgment on Babylon 17:1-19:10 ~ elimination of the seductress
Cycle 6: White horse judgment 19:11-21 ~ elimination of the power source
Cycle 7: White throne judgment 20:1-21:8 ~ elimination of all evil
New Jerusalem
It's not. How do you understand that to be what ammillennialists hold to? Because they surely don't.
Does anyone? :)
Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Then how can you say Revelation 20 deals with the living when all that is stated is the dead stand before God, sitting on the GWT? Only their soul is standing naked in judgment. There is no physicality, because there is not even a heaven and earth, ie creation. You have to change and add all your opinion to Revelation 20, to get your point to work. Paul never addresses Revelation 20 in 1 Thessalonians 4. Paul is talking about the redeemed, not the dead from sheol, death, and the sea. None of the redeemed are waiting in sheol or death.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I would agree that the lost sheep of Israel standing in Jerusalem before Jesus on His earthly throne, did not do one single good deed to deserve redemption. They were chosen by Jesus sitting there in judgment. They had no choice in the matter.
But they had not received the second birth until Jesus literally physically changed them out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical body. They did not accept by faith, as they literally had no choice in the redemption.
But only a remnant of Israel, a third of those physically alive at the Second Coming will be chosen by Jesus. The other 2 thirds will be tossed into the LOF. 100% of the redeemed will be saved. None of those going into the Millennium Kingdom will sneak in on their own righteousness. Blindness will be removed, but unfortunately too late for them to choose. But this judgment only applies to Israel. It does not apply to the rest of Adam's dead corruptible flesh still alive on the earth.
The other nations will be gathered as the wheat and tares.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The kingdom is in heaven. We are only ambassadors on earth, so no, the part where Jesus is sitting on His glorious throne has not happened on earth, until after the Second Coming. Then the earthly ministry and 70 weeks will be accomplished.
There are no cycles in Revelation. It is a series of events after the Second Coming. That is why it cannot cover time since the first century, because Revelation does not mention the first century ministry, which is missing in your interpretation.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
1 Timothy 6:15 was speaking about "the APPEARING of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show..." It wasn't that Christ had not yet been enthroned as the "King of kings and Lord of lords", but it was the APPEARING of our Lord Jesus Christ at his second coming return which had not yet taken place at the time Paul was writing to Timothy.
Peter had already spoken of the PAST enthronement of Christ Jesus on the throne of His Father David on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:32-36 - " Therefore BEING by the right hand of God exalted...Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God HATH made that same Jesus whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.")
The glorified, resurrected Christ was consecrated by God to reign on that throne in heaven over the world ever since His resurrection-day ascension. And anyone who is positionally "IN Christ" has reigned with Him. Christ rules now "in the midst of His enemies" - even without the consent of those enemies. Christ Jesus is not dependent upon the will of mankind to offer submission to Him in order for Him to wield the reigns of power over the nations.
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This question is rhetorical in nature, really, Timtofly, but doesn't one have to be alive to stand (or to do anything, really...)? Can a dead person stand? Well, in horror movies maybe... :) So, in reference specifically to Revelation 20:12, where John "saw the dead, great and small, standing," doesn't it seem to you that what John means there is something other than being physically or bodily dead? I submit to you that it should...
Well, it says He (Jesus, I hope we agree on that, at least) is seated. So, in sort of the same vein as above regarding the "dead," so likewise should we understand His being "seated." That He is seated does not indicate His posture or the position of His body, but rather that He sits in judgment over those who stand before Him. This is but one example among many, but in Exodus 11:5,, where Moses quotes God as saying, "Pharaoh ...sits on his throne," Moses ~ and really God, as these are really His words ~ is not saying Pharoah is actually sitting on some chair.
And regarding the great white throne... :) It's not "great" in the sense that it's really, really, really big... " And not literally white as opposed to blue, green, red, or any other primary or secondary color... :)
So with the above in mind, hmmm... "naked"... So another rhetorical question: For one to actually be "standing naked" in the sense that you mean it here, Timtofly, doesn't one have to have a physical body and to literally be unclothed/disrobed? :)
Aside: Curious... where do you see that they are naked?
However, in a different sense, I agree... :) Really, we are all always "naked" before God... :) But in the final Judgment, all Christians will actually be "clothed" in... something. :) I'm... kind of afraid to ask this, but... do you know what that something is, Timtofly?
A final comment here: So, "the dead," and "seated," and "great," and "white" and "throne," and "naked"... That should not only clarify things in Revelation 20, but Revelation in general. :)
Very much disagree.
Again, very much disagree.
No... I think you have to change your opinion of my opinion... :) And your opinion of Revelation 20, in light of the above... :)
Of course not, because (as was the case with Jesus during His earthly ministry), John's writing of Revelation was still a few years in the future at the time Paul wrote his letters to any of the churches to which he wrote... about 30 years or so in the future, to be exact. But what you say here means nothing, really; Paul says nothing to contradict what John writes in Revelation, and the inverse (regarding Paul and John) is true also, of course.
Yes...
Okay, but John is talking about the dead and those not... dead. But again, "dead" is meaning something very different than the mere ~ not invalid, but rather inaccurate ~ sense in which you are understanding it. And, right now, we are all waiting... in one state or the other. :)
Right, but waiting they are, both the living and the deceased.
Well, the ones on His left may have done good things, but they did not do so in Him, clothed in His righteousness, and thus their works, even good ones, remained as filthy rags. But many ~ those who will be on His right ~ did so in this way, and they are the ones who, as David puts it in Psalm 1, will stand in the judgment.
I mean the judgment will take place, for sure, despite anyone possibly not believing it will, or not wanting to face it...
Well, the lost never will. But those whom God has had mercy on, those who have been born again of the Spirit, will then ~ on Jesus's return ~ be changed from corruptible (sinful) to incorruptible (no longer sinful)... made like Jesus once and for all. But we will have the bodies we always had. Again, God says, "Behold, I am making all things new." (Revelation 21:5)... not "I am making all new things." :)
They were not given faith, which is why they did not "accept"... But, those born again of the Spirit and given faith ~ God's Elect ~ do not fail to "accept."
Well, no choice in whether God had mercy on them or not; this is true of all of us. Like Paul says in Romans 9:18, "has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."
We don't know percentages, really; we are not told. We only know that in the final analysis, the redeemed/saved will be an innumerable multitude... as the stars of heaven.
100% agree. :)
Right. Good.
Ugh. :) Everyone makes their choice. But some are made to see, and then they choose... differently. :)
Each is judged according to what he has done. This applies to those of Israel and to those not of Israel.
All nations, past and present, contain wheat and tares alike. All will be gathered for the final Judgment. Some (the righteous in Christ) will stand, others (those in the way of the wicked) will perish.
Jesus's millennial reign is in heaven; He is our reigning King now, from heaven. But He is with us in the Spirit (just as we are with Him in the heavenly places in the same manner). But His Kingdom is ~ fully in heaven, but only in part now (not in full yet, but growing, as new believers are coming to faith and belief in Christ even now). God's Kingdom is a people, Timtofly.
Well, we are, for sure, but we are ~ as Paul says ~ fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God..." ~ believers from all time up to now ~ "...built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him (we) also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." This is God's Kingdom, Timtofly. And one day it will fill the whole earth "as the waters cover the sea" (Isaiah 11:9; Habakkuk 2:14).
Well, again, as long as you understand what it means for Him to "sit on His glorious throne" (see above), but that's true ever since He ascended to heaven and is true now. Really, though, Him being "on His glorious throne" has been true since His birth to Mary... and really has always been true, and always will be... from everlasting to everlasting, as it were.
Hmm, Jesus's earthly ministry ended when He ascended to heaven abouit 2,000 years ago. Ours is now, of course, but Jesus is with us, just as He said He would be in Matthew 28:20 ("...behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age"). He is with us in the distinct third Person of the Triune Godhead, the Holy Spirit. Ah, Daniel's weeks... so difficult to come to agreement on that...
Continued below...
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Continued from above...
Like I said, very, very interesting. Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.
You're welcome to your opinion, certainly, but I would encourage you to investigate that instead of rejecting it without any thought given to it.
All lead up to the Second Coming... and in the last two (Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:1-21:8), we actually see the Second Coming... or should, anyway... :)
I understand why you think that... :)
This I agree with, more or less, but that doesn't preclude the fact that the events take place during the time of our ~ and really the Holy Spirit's ~ earthly ministry... :) That's really the whole point of John's Revelation; it's given to John for us. John says in Revelation 1:1-3, "The revelation of Jesus Christ... Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near." This was just as true for those reading and hearing and keeping it when he wrote it as it is for us now, and will be up to Jesus's return. The main point is, despite how it may look at any point in time, God rules history and will bring it to its consummation in Christ.
...which is not really "missing" at all. :)
Like I said, very, very interesting. Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
They seem able to stand before God in sheol without a body. Those physically dead get emptied out of sheol, and stand before God just as they are.
Those in Matthew 25 have not even physically died standing before their King, Jesus.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
From all time, sure. We know all will eventually physically die, at the Second Coming, and John gave us percentages. So I will stick with what John wrote.
One cannot stand, Timtofly, without a body (with at least one leg attached)… :) And the Judgment does not take place in Sheol (regardless of your thoughts about sheol or where that is). Dear God…
Well yeah, all who have died before Christ’s return will physically stand ~ along with those still alive at His return ~ before Him at the final Judgment, many on His right and the rest on His left. I respectfully refer you yet again to John 5:28-29…
Aside from the baseless “have not even physically died” thing… :) …what you say here cannot be right, Timtofly, because those on His left He sends away, having never known them, so He is obviously not their King. If they were indeed His, He would by no means cast them out, He would never forsake them.
Some will still be alive, never having experienced physical death, when Christ returns.
All previously deceased people will be physically resurrected at the return of Christ, and all will stand before Jesus at the ensuing Judgment.
He did not, but that’s so not worth quibbling over. However, the number of the saved is an innumerable multitude (like the stars of heaven, like the grains of sand on the seashore), and it is literally impossible to get any accurate percentage of you can’t number the whole.
Well, you are definitely stuck, I’ll give you that… LOL!! Dude, stop. Please. For your own sake. Goodness gracious. :)
Grace and peace to you.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
So you are saying they have bodies in sheol or what? Why are the dead resurrected at all? Just to have a leg to stand on?
The rich man in sheol had a tongue he wanted some water to dip on. Seems if one has a figurative tongue, one should stand on figurative legs without a necessary resurrection, which they never receive, except in your theological view.
You have forgotten that your resurrection is spiritual and not even physical, so how does that spiritual resurrection work out for those in sheol? Why are you claiming a physical resurrection in one instance, but spiritual in other instances. A resurrection should always be a physical body, and nothing else to be consistent. All who receive a resurrection will never be placed into the LOF.
That is the whole point; that a resurrection prevents the need for the second death in the LOF.
All those currently in Paradise already have the first resurrection, and will not need a new body, because the one they currently enjoy in God's presence will last for all eternity.
No.
To be judged. Along with everyone else.
To stand, they would have to have at least one leg. <chuckles> However, if you're using "stand" in the sense of withstanding the Judgment, or coming out on the "good side" of the Judgment, then no, the wicked will not stand in the judgment; this is what David says in Psalm 1. But you don't seem to be talking about standing in the latter sense.
Oh boy... That's a parable, Timtofly. But still, the setting of the parable is prior to the resurrection and the final Judgment.
The first is spiritual, and is seen in Ephesians 2:4-8, happening to each member of God's elect at some point during his or her lifetime here on earth. The second is at the end of the age, upon Christ's return, and is of the body and is general to all. The final Judgment ensues shortly thereafter. I have been crystal clear many times now; you've forgotten my repeated explanations, Timtofly, or just turned a deaf ear to them. Probably the latter, but either way, it is what it is.
<eye roll>
See above.
Many think that; you're not alone. But no.
Well that depends on which resurrection you're talking about, the first or the second. See above.
Again, no, see above. In addition, the second death is not physical. Think of it as complete ruination, complete removal of God's grace and placement under God's judgment, and indeed the loss of life ~ permanent, for all eternity, of course ~ but not loss of physicality or consciousness.
Yes, well, they experienced it at some point ~ and shared in it, as in Revelation 20 from that point on ~ during their lifetime here on earth... and we Christians have experienced it and are sharing in it now. See above.
Well, right... they'll get their reconstituted bodies back, will be reunited with their physical bodies at the second resurrection. All will, but ~ John 5:28-29 yet again ~ some will have been resurrected to eternal life, while the rest will have been resurrected to judgment.
The previously deceased saints do not have physical bodies at the present time, Timtofly. See above. But you're right about this one thing, that they will not have new bodies, as in one they never had before, but will have their old body back, it ~ like the rest of creation ~ being made new. As I said, God has said, "Behold, I am making all things new" (Revelation 21:5). He is not making new things. :)
<chuckles> Hoo, boy. Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
That is your explanation of your argument, you claim I ignore?
You seem to make it easy to ignore your points.
There is only one resurrection, and it is called the first, because it only happens after physical death. You and everyone else assume a second resurrection, but cannot prove it from Scripture. This assumed second resurrection would be after the stated second death. Yet how do you define a second death prior to this assumed second resurrection, since you all require the second resurrection is necessary for the second death.
You all, are the one's with the brain twisted math that gets life and death complicated and twisted into a pretzel of imagination.
The first birth is physical. The first death is physical. The first resurrection is physical. That is the only thing that Scripture teaches.
The second birth is spiritual. The second death is spiritual. There is no second resurrection mentioned in Scripture.
I have never mentioned nor argued there is a second resurrection, because no such second resurrection even exists in Scripture to be talked about. You all have made up this assumption, and then assume it is from Scripture.
Some of you declare the first resurrection is both spiritual and physical, but then need too explain which first is physical and which first is spiritual. Scripture needs no explanation if the first resurrection is always physical, and all would know from the word "first" exactly what one is talking about.
You even call the second resurrection physical, even though technically it would be spiritual if ever actually found in Scripture. The second resurrection is only assumed as ever happening, just like you assume Lazarus never died nor had the first resurrection, as that is only a parable, and your first resurrection is either spiritual or a future event most would wrongly call the second resurrection.
I don't care, really, what you do or do not do. But it is what it is.
Hmm, then how come you keep trying to refute what I've posted? LOL!
No, the fact that there is pointedly, in Revelation 20, a "first resurrection," Timtofly, irrefutably implies that there is a second. In Revelation 20 itself, the second is just prior to the scene of the final Judgment, which opens in Revelation 20:11.
Disagree; this is the second resurrection..
See above. Again... how many times this is I've long since lost count... in Revelation 20, the first is seen in Revelation 20:4-6, and the second is implied as just having happened when we "see" what John "sees" in Revelation 20:11. That you refute it does not equate to lack of proof.
No, before. The ones resurrected to judgment, then suffer the second death. But this second death is not annihilation or cessation of existence.
See above; the second death is not prior to the second resurrection. I've said this over and over and over directly to you, Timtofly. You say you're not ignoring those repeated assertions, but that's exceedingly hard to believe.
You're more than welcome to your opinion. :) It bothers me not. :)
Yes.
Yes.
No. See above.
Again, you're more than welcome to your opinion. :)
Yes.
No, because the ones who suffer the second death will have always, even from physical (the first; they do not experience the second) birth, been spiritually dead. As I said, the second death is complete ruination, complete removal of any hope of redemption/salvation, complete removal of God's grace and placement under God's judgment, and indeed the loss of life in this sense... and permanent, for all eternity.
See above.
Again ~ and again and again and again ~ you are more than welcome to your opinion. :)
Some do, maybe... Not I... It is not.
Oh pish. Pretty much everything needs explanation. But some blindly accept... "stuff"... LOL! At any rate, the first resurrection is never physical. The first resurrection is the resurrection Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:5-8 (as I have said many times). :) And John speaks of it in Revelation 20:4-6.
Ohhhh... not all... :)
Right, because it is physical; it is the one Jesus is talking about in John 5:28-29...
Nope.
Well, we know that it absolutely will, because Jesus speaks of it explicitly in ~ yet again ~ John 5:28-29... "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
Lazarus ~ and I am here talking about the Lazarus mentioned in John 11 ~ is an interesting case, as is Jairus's daughter.
This Lazarus was a real person, obviously, the brother of Mary and Martha, and was physically resurrected, by Jesus, of course, as was Jairus's daughter. For both this Lazarus and Jairus's daughter had previously physically died, and they died physically again sometime after Jesus raised them. We know that this Lazarus (and Mary and Martha) did experience the first resurrection, because it is stated explicitly that Jesus loved them ~ "Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus" (John 11:5).
But not so with Jairus's daughter. We don't really know anything about her, except that she was raised, but Jairus himself had experienced the first resurrection, because he obviously believed Jesus was the Christ of God, because he actually came to Jesus and "fell at His feet" (worshiped) and begged Him to come and heal his daughter, presumably because he knew Jesus could heal her. Again, we never hear anything about Jairus's daughter.
In both cases, though, neither is about the first or second anything, really, but Jesus's power over all things, even death itself ~ that He is God, the second Person of the triune Jehovah.
Ah, now, if you're referring to the Lazarus in Luke 16, yes, that's a parable. And I said what needed to be said about it in my previous post.
Even though the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable, Timtofly, the parable was/is offered in the context of reality. Jesus was telling His hearers, basically, to believe the Word of God, and that only God ~ and He ~ can save, regardless of earthly possessions or wealth.
You really should stop. :)
Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
So the New Jerusalem has always been in heaven, along with everyone in it, who have had physical bodies?
Thus no one up there is waiting for a physical body. They are actually sitting, or standing, serving God day and night in that heavenly temple, and living in that New Jerusalem?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You keep inserting that a first resurrection, that you don't call physical, but spiritual , happens twice in Revelation 20.
How can you expect to be taken seriously?
The term first resurrection does not imply a second resurrection. In fact some have stated the first resurrection only happens after the thousand years. You cannot have two resurrections if you don't even recognize the thousand years between your alleged first resurrection and a second one. Was there a physical resurrection in the first century that implies a second one now?
If there was a first resurrection, then all those still have physical bodies that are not subject to nor have experienced a second death. Which is it? You want two resurrections, then deny those in heaven have physical bodies, from a first resurrection.
Galatians 4
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”[e]
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
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