Why are some interpreters not being honest with the text involving Daniel 9:27?

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Eternally Grateful

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So what? You are being too literal here. Their significance ceased when Jesus died on the cross and ushered in the new covenant.
The blood of bulls and goat NEVER took away sin.

In fact, the very high priest that did the sacrifice on that day was lost. As he had rejected Gods provision, and had Jesus crucified.

Yes I am being literal. Anyone who reads prophesy should be literal. You can not be too literal. Failure to do so will cause you to miss What God is saying.

He said THEY WILL CEASE.. THEY DID NOT CEASE. HENcE THE PROPHECY WAS NOT FULFILLED.

anyone who says otherwise, is misinterpreting prophecy!
There are some Jews who are saved and belong to Christ. I, of course, am not saying no Jews sin today, but that isn't what making an end of sin means. Your focus is on the wrong thing. It should be on Jesus because the prophecy is all about Him and what He would do for the people of Israel.
You don’t get it, Personal sin was not what Gabriel was talking about. He is talking about the particular sin that caused god to disperse them, and caused the city and sanctuary to remain desolate.

If you want to know what sin, read lev 26..
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus made an end to sin in the sense of dying on the cross and taking "away the sin of the world".
lol. This is concerning DAVID’s PEOPLE.

Not the world.

DAVIDS PEOPLE still reject God. They are still in sin.. hence the 70 weeks are not fulfilled. Or God LIED.

there is no other option
 

Eternally Grateful

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Who's right?

Scripture: "Seventy weeks are determined..." Daniel 9:24
Dispensational futurism: 69 weeks are determined; the 70th week is postponed and undetermined.

Easy decision.
70 weeks are DETERMINED FOR YOUR CITY, AND YOUR PEOPLE

Luke 19: 41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

What is one way Jerusalem shoudl have known the time of their visitation?

One way is Dan 9, They are told. Front he time of the going forth of the command to restor jerusalem until messiah the prince will be literally 69 weeks.

If they took prophecy literally. They would have known the time was there, then they could have seen all the other signs, and saw Jesus for who he was.

they they did not take prophecy, and failed to see the time. So what did Jesus say?

the next thing in the prophecy would happen to them

”then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and sanctuary”

Amazing how prophecy literally comes true. And I am being too literal??

but there is more…


Matt: 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under herwings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Again,


Because Israel did not repent. And recieve their messiah. God has stopped the time Clock. He said not only as in the last passage, it is hidden from them, but he says here, your house is left desolate.

Then he again re-affirms daniels prophecy.

”you will not see me again until you say blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord”

so just like in Lev 26, where God promises to destroy the city and sanctuary if they continue in sin, he said if they repent, he will remember the land.. And here jesus is insinuating they will repent. And they will return.

Guess what? That happens BECAUSE THEY HAVE CEASED THEIR SIN.

hence the 70 weeks is completed.

Keep trying, you may convince me,, But I am not seeing any path for that to happen.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Daniel 9:26 says: “the people of the prince that shall come (speaking of the Roman soldiers) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”

In Daniel 9:27 after predicting that the old covenant would be removed, the angel predicted that God would destroy the temple (the centre-point of the sacrifices) forever. We learn: “for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

The consummation is the one final future Coming of Christ.

We see the fulfilment of this in Christ’s words in Matthew 23:34-35: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the consummation, as Daniel predicted).”

Christ continues (to remove any ambiguity as to what He was referring to) in Matthew 24:1-2, “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

This couldn’t be clearer.

What was going to replace the old physical Jewish building in Jerusalem was not something that was restricted to one race but a global spiritual temple that embraced all nations equally.

In John 4:19-20 we see Christ addressing this subject, in response to a statement made by the woman at the well. The woman said to Christ, “Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.”

Christ responded in vv 21-24, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

What Christ was teaching here was that a new economy was being introduced through His earthly ministry that would forever replace the old. No longer would the worship of the living God be restricted to a natural geographical land-mass or be centred upon a physical temporal brick building built with hands in earthly Jerusalem, rather, it would now be concentrated in a spiritual eternal temple (the redeemed Church) which is spiritual located within the heavenly New Jerusalem. That temple would not be restricted to one physical nation but would be situated throughout all the nations of the world.

Since Christ, the worship of God was no longer restricted to a physical earthly building but rather relocated to an invisible spiritual temple called the Church.

The Jews at the time of Christ, being ignorant and earthly minded, interpreted this statement to mean: He would destroy and rebuild the physical Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. The reading records, “Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?”

However, the next verse exposed their blindness, saying, “But he spake of the temple of his body” (v 21).

Christ spiritualizes the temple here. None could surely dispute this. There were 2 different mindsets in this picture. Christ’s heavenly mind-set presenting the introduction of the new covenant in the form of Himself and the Jews carnal earthly mind-set hankering towards an old inadequate system.

Christ also declared during His ministry, whilst standing in the actual temple, “I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple (Matthew 12:6). However, the Jews in the main had No comprehension of that glorious statement. To this spiritual Temple would the nations finally find mercy, thus, fulfilling perfectly what the old temple couldn’t. And thus, through Himself (the living Temple), fulfilling Isaiah 2:2 that all nations shall flow unto it.”

Granted, the temple was central to the Jewish faith. For anyone to intimate in any way that it would be destroyed was viewed as nothing short of blasphemy. However, Christ was redirecting their eyes from the old temporal building – which was an imperfect shadow and type of Himself – and pointing them towards the new all-sufficient eternal temple – in the form of His person. Through His impending death, the temporal temple and its ceremonies would be done away with.

Hebrews 9:11 directly rebukes those who look to an earthly carnal building in modern Israel. It explicitly states, “Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building.”

This is God’s perfect temple today – and it is eternal. This building will never fall, be replaced or share a central place with another.
You missed the point completely.

Jesus ushered int he church, of these there is no disagreement,

The sacrifice and burnt offerings which never took away sin, but pointed to christ. Were fulfilled when the lamb of God who took away the sin of the world completed his mission on the cross. And through this, all mankind has the offer of salvation.

But this is not the topic of Dan 9

Dan 9 is about Gods answer to the prayer of Daniel.

the prophet was told babylon would destroy the city and it would lay desolate for 70 years. The 70 years were of most up. But Israel had not repented. They will still in sin. So Daniel did what was required. He was confessing his sin, and the sins of the people. And praying God would remember his covenant with his people. And his city.

Gods answer to Daniel was concerning this prayer, The city of Jerusalem. And the nation of Israel

the 70 weeks concerns THAT AND THAT ONLY

its not about the salvation of mankind. Or the cross. Messiah is just a point of reference of something that occurs in that 70 weeks that God is giving his people and his holy city to repent.

The abomination of desolation is another point of reference. When the people see this idol. Standing in the holy place. They will remember prophecy, remember daniels words and remember Jesus words of warning.

The next 3.5 years will be a time of great distress.. A time so great. There is non like it. But God uses this to bring Israel back to himself. At the end of this period. Isreal repents. They confess their sin and the sin of the fathers. And God did what he promised he would do. He remembers the land, he remembers the promise he made to their fathers.

The cross deals with the issue of mankind’s debt to God.

the 70 weeks is about God giving a nation a hope. That their distress will one day end..
 

Eternally Grateful

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(1) The first part (7 weeks) relates to the rebuilding of Jerusalem.
agreed
(2) The second part (62 weeks) takes up to the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.
wrong, It takes us up until the time he is introduced to the people of israel. Riding on a donkey
(3) The third part (1 week) begins with the start of Christ’s public ministry (AD 27) and sees the crucifixion half way through it (AD 30), which is the start of the clock of natural Israel’s probationary opportunity (40 yrs) to accept or reject the Messiah’s message and His once-all-sufficient atonement. The concluding 3 ½ yrs saw Israel’s wanton rejection of the once-all-sufficient atonement, the rebellious continuation of the NOW abolished order of Old Testament sacrifice (which is “the overspreading of abominations”). The Jews rebellion saw the destruction of their temple in AD 70 (which was 40 yrs later), which caused the termination of their now abolished temple sacrifices.
Again, this is in error. Number 1 the timing is wrong. Number 2. Jesus did not confirm a covenant with many in the begining of his ministry, one things he continued to say over and over is it was not his time yet. Because it was not. God had a set time when Jesus would be revealed. He did that when he entered jerusalem.

There is nothing described in Daniel 9 that necessarily needs to be fulfilled in the second 3 ½ years of the week. What this prophecy is essentially teaching is that those things predicted to occur in this prediction had to be completed within 70 weeks. It doesn't mean they had to take a full 70 weeks to complete. The 6 things predicted to be fulfilled in Christ obviously occurred in the first 3 ½ years of the week, mainly at the midpoint of it.
I can agree.

However, everything that is said in the begining that would occure at the END of the 70 weeks should have occured then.

it never did, it has not yet.
Saying all that, the Gospel message went out to Israel in the first 3 ½ years of the 70th week (as it had through the preceding ages), and bore significant fruit. After Christ's resurrection/ascent, there were 3 ½ years where the Church was shown to be protected before the persecution began after the 70th week (Revelation 12). The last 3 ½ yrs also saw the outworking of that atonement in faithful Israel (the remnant) with their baptism of fire for service at Pentecost in order to take the Gospel out to the darkened heathen world immediately after that.

This last 3 ½ yrs period ends with the stoning of Stephen and the subsequent persecution of the Church by Saul. Jesus then confronts Saul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9), and censures him for persecuting the Church. Saul is supernaturally converted, and changes his name to Paul. This happens in 34 AD. Through his conversion, the 70th week closes. Saul was then used as that notable tool to head-up the great commission to the Gentile world. Faithful Israel would then take the Gospel to the blinded nations.

Christian Gedge writes: “The cross was 7th April AD 30 and the weeks ended when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles” (approximately Nisan AD 34 by my calculation).”

Shortly after that, Peter was instructed to go and preach to Cornelius and his family (Acts 10). It was at around the same time that Paul realized that his mission was to evangelize the Gentiles. Acts 13:45-48 says, “when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

The early church put high significance on the conversion of Cornelius (the first gentile) and I believe it delineates between the "times of Jacob" and the "times of the Gentiles." It also marks the completion of the 70 weeks which is of course, the final countdown of the last 70 assigned to Jacob.
Again, this does not make sense.

The 70 weeks were determined to make an end of sin if Israel

Israel is still in sin.. to this day..
 

Eternally Grateful

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Again, How can you look at the passage and say this?

25. Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem


This was fulfilled in Neh 2 when Nehimiah was given the command to restor Jerusalem

Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The [h]street shall be built again, and the [i]wall,
Even in troublesome times.


This was fulfilled when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey as the prophet prophesied his entrance

Zechariah 9:9

The Coming King

“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey

Also note Up until this time, jesus continued to say, it is not my time yet. This is what he was talking about. He could not enter jerusalem as king until his time.

Up until now. 69 weeks (7 plus 62) has been literally fulfilled. You would think the 70th week would start the next day. However what does the text say



26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;


The first event after the 69th week, is messiah would be cut off. This happened immediately after he entered jerusalem as he was arrested, tried and crucified.

then there is another event



And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.


This happens after Jesus is cut off. almost 40 years later.. Yet we still have not begun the 70th week yet

This destruction will not just be an event, it will continue for a time


The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


The end of this destruction will come at a time when these war desolations, which continue today, are determined to continue.

We still have not started the 70 weeks, yet we have 2000 years almost since the 69th week ended..

No Gap???


27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

here we have the beginning of the 70th week. We do not know what covenant, or even literally who confirms it, all we know is that he comes from rome, as he is the prince of the people who destroyed the city of Jerusalem.

What happens during this 70th week?



But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the [l]desolate.”


1. In the middle of the week is this abomination which causes desolation. This causes sacriice and burnt offering to cease.
2. Jesus gave a warning, when you see this, Then run, because then there will be great tribulation such as has never been seen before.
3. We also know this great tribulation will be so severe, that nothing on earth has been like it before or after, So bad is it that all life on earth is threatened (see matt 24)
4. We know that this will culminate in the return of the king, jesus himself. Who the kings of the earth will witness his return and his destruction of the gentile rulers (at this time, Dan 2, Dan 7 Dan 9 Dan 11 and Dan 12 will be fulfilled.)

non of this has happened yet? Why? Because it is NOT YET FULFILLED

So please. Stop saying there is no GAP and stop mocking people who believe it is. Because in reality, the fact you can not see a GAP is really amazing, if we get down to it
@Spiritual Israelite

No comment on the above message?

Silence speaks loudly
 

Eternally Grateful

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I want to talk about Genesis 3:15.

Don't you believe that Genesis 3:15 is prophecy?
No, Jesus said what HE WOULD DO

prophecy is God telling us WHAT WILL HAPPEN.

and by the way, What jesus said, literally did come true.. do you not believe it?

God told Satan what?

You (satan) will bruise the seed of the woman Ihe crippled mankind, In his feeble attempt to destroy the one who came to save man king, he crippled him on the cross)

However, the seed of the woman (christ) Crushed his head by defeating him totally on the cross.

But again, this is not prophecy, this would be more of a parabolic type statement, where you use symbols to represent spiritual truths.

so again, when your ready to talk about PROPHECY,, let me know
 

covenantee

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No, Jesus said what HE WOULD DO

prophecy is God telling us WHAT WILL HAPPEN.

and by the way, What jesus said, literally did come true.. do you not believe it?

God told Satan what?

You (satan) will bruise the seed of the woman Ihe crippled mankind, In his feeble attempt to destroy the one who came to save man king, he crippled him on the cross)

However, the seed of the woman (christ) Crushed his head by defeating him totally on the cross.

But again, this is not prophecy, this would be more of a parabolic type statement, where you use symbols to represent spiritual truths.

so again, when your ready to talk about PROPHECY,, let me know
I thought you were a literalist. That's what you've been telling us.

Obviously not.

Satan literally appears nowhere in the verse. You have spiritualized the serpent into Satan.

Christ literally appears nowhere in the verse. You have spiritualized the seed of the woman into Christ.

The cross literally appears nowhere in the verse. You have taken the activities of your two already-spiritualized entities, Satan and Christ, and further spiritualized them into the cross.

So much for your literality. :D

The verse prophesies spiritually of what would happen spiritually at Calvary.

Pure spiritual prophecy.

As the true Church has believed for the entirety of its existence.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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You laugh at others putting a "Gap" into Daniel's 70 weeks, and you put a 37 year gap between the 69th & 70th week as shown below, Real Big Smiles!
Stop lying. It is a sin to lie. I do not put a gap into Daniel's 70 weeks. You are falsely representing my view. Are you so lacking in confidence in your own view that you have to resort to lying about my view? Pathetic.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Same could be said of you.

Ever try humility? Or is your pride to deep?
It's not pride to call someone out for missing something that every Christian should easily recognize, which is that the reference to the Messiah being cut off in Daniel 9:26 is a reference to Jesus's death.. He was denying that. How can any Christian not recognize that passage as speaking about Jesus and His death? I'll say it again. He needs to pray for discernment because he is very lacking in it right now.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Who's right?

Scripture: "Seventy weeks are determined..." Daniel 9:24
Dispensational futurism: 69 weeks are determined; the 70th week is postponed and undetermined.

Easy decision.
Yep, that's straight out of the Dispensational Futurism Version (DPV).

They're always changing scripture to fit their view. The prophecy indicates that there would be a 70 week period of time, which most of us understand as being 490 years, by the end of which the things listed in that verse would be accomplished. For dispensational futurism, it's been about 2,500 years so far since the beginning of the prophecy. So, it's been around 2,000 years beyond the allotted time for the prophecy to be fulfilled so far, yet they still think it hasn't been fulfilled yet.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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No, Jesus said what HE WOULD DO

prophecy is God telling us WHAT WILL HAPPEN.

and by the way, What jesus said, literally did come true.. do you not believe it?

God told Satan what?

You (satan) will bruise the seed of the woman Ihe crippled mankind, In his feeble attempt to destroy the one who came to save man king, he crippled him on the cross)

However, the seed of the woman (christ) Crushed his head by defeating him totally on the cross.

But again, this is not prophecy, this would be more of a parabolic type statement, where you use symbols to represent spiritual truths.

so again, when your ready to talk about PROPHECY,, let me know
Why are you being so dishonest here? Had Genesis 3:15 been fulfilled yet when it was written? Obviously not. It talks about something that would happen in the future. You know what that's called? Prophecy. But, here you are denying that.
 
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covenantee

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Why are you being so dishonest here? Had Genesis 3:15 been fulfilled yet when it was written? Obviously not. It talks about something that would happen in the future. You know what that's called? Prophecy. But, here you are denying that.
Yeah, beyond absurd.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Jesus spoke of his body to be destroyed in death as the temple, you and the pharisees believe it was a literal temple of stone taking 46 years to build
Why do you resort to dishonesty? Did I deny that Jesus ever spoke of His body as a temple? No. Yes, He spoke of that and He also spoke of the destruction of the physical temple which was standing at the time. Why do you not allow that He could have spoken about both? That's ludicrous. The following clearly does not refer to His body:

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Luke 21:6 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

You can't seriously try to tell me that Jesus was referring to His body in the above passage. He would not refer to His body as "the buildings of the temple" or "these great buildings" or "the temple..adorned with goodly stones and gifts". He was obviously referring to the temple buildings that the disciples were marveling at and He said they would be destroyed. The disciples asked Him when that would occur and He answered that question along with the question about His future second coming at the end of the age.
 

Douggg

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It's not pride to call someone out for missing something that every Christian should easily recognize, which is that Jesus is the Messiah prince who is referenced in Daniel 9:25-26. He was denying that. How can any Christian not recognize that passage as speaking about Jesus? I'll say it again. He needs to pray for discernment because he is very lacking in it right now.
The prince that shall come is of the people who destroyed the temple and sanctuary, i.e. the Romans.

Jesus was a Jew, not a Roman.

The gap between the 69th week and the 70th week is the time of the Gentiles - controlling of Jerusalem, while the Jews were taken captives into the nations.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Jews returned to the land of Israel, following WWII, and in 1948 became a nation again back in the land.

In 1967, the Jews regained control of Jerusalem, ending the time of the Gentiles.

So here we, the posters at this site, are in the end times, with events of the 70th week shortly to unfold.

I am explaining, not making a personal attack on you, okay ?
 
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covenantee

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The prince that shall come is of the people who destroyed the temple and sanctuary, i.e. the Romans.

Jesus was a Jew, not a Roman.

The gap between the 69th week and the 70th week is the time of the Gentiles - controlling of Jerusalem, while the Jewish were taken captives into the nations.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Jews returned to the land of Israel, following WWII, and in 1948 became a nation again back in the land.

In 1967, the Jews regained control of Jerusalem, ending the time of the Gentiles.

So here we, the posters at this site, are in the end times, with events of the 70th week shortly to unfold.

I am explaining, not making a personal attack on you, okay ?
The prince that shall come is Messiah the Prince, who did come.

Messiah is the only individual identified as a prince in the passage.
 

Eternally Grateful

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It's not pride to call someone out for missing something that every Christian should easily recognize, which is that Jesus is the Messiah prince who is referenced in Daniel 9:25-26. He was denying that. How can any Christian not recognize that passage as speaking about Jesus? I'll say it again. He needs to pray for discernment because he is very lacking in it right now.
Well then consider me for calling you out for missing something that every christian should recognize.

The prince who is to come is NOT the messiah.

As for Truth7T7
, I stopped paying attention to him along time ago. He has some weird beliefs..
 

Eternally Grateful

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Yep, that's straight out of the Dispensational Futurism Version (DPV).

They're always changing scripture to fit their view. The prophecy indicates that there would be a 70 week period of time, which most of us understand as being 490 years, by the end of which the things listed in that verse would be accomplished. For dispensational futurism, it's been about 2,500 years so far since the beginning of the prophecy. So, it's been around 2,000 years beyond the allotted time for the prophecy to be fulfilled so far, yet they still think it hasn't been fulfilled yet.
No

its right out of Daniel 9 and the rest of scripture