False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[The Light]

Using that logic someone can declare the rapture happened at the OD as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars, Matthew 24:29-31.

Its perfect logic based on the LSG and of course confirmed by the WPA event. So it's pretty cut and dried.

And did Jesus send His angels to gather the elect at the OD? Nope. Did the signs of the sun moon and stars happen at the OD? Nope.

Yet Jesus will return at the sixth seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

 

[The Light]

It is the rapture. Same timeframe and both a gathering during a Coming.

It is a rapture but certainly not the rapture of the Church as they are already in heaven at the second coming.

 

[Douggg]

What you are missing is that the wrath of God is on all the earth.

Rev 14
Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

You are still not reading verse 20.

How long is 1600 furlongs ?

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

[ewq1938]

Its perfect logic based on the LSG and of course confirmed by the WPA event. So it's pretty cut and dried.

And did Jesus send His angels to gather the elect at the OD? Nope. Did the signs of the sun moon and stars happen at the OD? Nope.

Yet Jesus will return at the sixth seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Wrong for the same exact reasons why they didn't happen during the OD. The seals are information about future events just as the things Jesus said on the mount were.

 

[ewq1938]

It is a rapture but certainly not the rapture of the Church as they are already in heaven at the second coming.

Paul spoke of one rapture not two. No one is raptured to heaven, and the one rapture happens at the last trump, when the GT is over.

 

[Douggg]

It is the rapture. Same timeframe and both a gathering during a Coming.

The rapture is by Jesus's voice. Differently, in Matthew 24:31, Jesus sends His angels out to gather the elect. Matthew 24:31 is talking about the Jews.

Deuteronomy 30:

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

[ewq1938]

The rapture is by Jesus's voice. Differently, in Matthew 24:31, Jesus sends His angels out to gather the elect.

It's not Jesus' voice. It's a shout and voice of an archangel, which means they sound a trumpet. Angels are the ones who perform the rapture. It's all one events after the GT is over, at the 7th and last trump.

Matthew 24:31 is talking about the Jews.

No, it's speaks of all who are saved who has survived the GT.

Deuteronomy 30:

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

This is not an end times event and is not what Mathew 24 is speaking about.

 

[Douggg]

It's not Jesus' voice. It's a shout and voice of an archangel, which means they sound a trumpet. Angels are the ones who perform the rapture.

No, it is not an angel, nor angels as in Matthew 24:31, who perform the rapture/resurrection. Jesus Himself speaking in John 5:25.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

In 1Thessalonians4:15-18, the dead in Christ rise first. It is not by the voice of an angel, but the commanding voice of Jesus over death and the grave. Jesus's commanding voice as the highest messenger of God, not an actual angel created being.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

In Revelation 4:1 as John is called up to heaven, the first voice he hears was as it were a trumpet talking to him. The trump of God in 1Thessalonians4:16 is Jesus's voice.

 

[Douggg]

This is not an end times event and is not what Mathew 24 is speaking about.

Yes, Deuteronomy 30:1-6 verses 4-6 is the Matthew 24:31 event. It is also in Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus Himself speaking in the text verses 21-29 having returned to this earth, His Second Coming.

Ezekiel 39:
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, it was not a new heaven and earth after the flood. The earth and atmosphere were changed, but not replaced. There are dinosaur fossils found worldwide in this present earth.


When Jesus returns, He will restore this present earth from the damage to it done during the great tribulation. There will not be an eradication of humans descended from Adam because of the great tribulation. Jesus when He returns will rule the nations, the heathen, with a rod of iron, for the 1000 year millennium.

After the Flood it was a new heaven and earth like after the 6th Seal there will be a new heaven and earth. That is what Isaiah 65 is saying.

Isaiah 65 is talking about the Day of the Lord, not the NHNE of Revelation 21.

In 2 Peter 3, Peter is also comparing a new heaven and earth after the Flood, to the new heaven and earth after the 6th Seal in preparation for the Day of the Lord.

New is that it is different, not a new creation that is totally a separate reality. Creating all things new is removing Adam's punishment of sin and death. None of that remains in the thousand year reign of Jesus as King during the Day of the Lord.

People will be descendants of Adam, but in God's permanent incorruptible physical body. The body Adam had before he disobeyed God, and physically changed from incorruption to corruption. Adam's current body is death and decay. God's body is life without a sin nature. They will still procreate and subdue, that is fill the earth per Genesis 1:27-28.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

This is not the church on the earth. This is the final harvest of sheep and wheat after the Second Coming.

The church is still in Paradise, where there is no procreation, and they are glorified as complete sons of God. The church has on the robes of white, and wait until the NHNE which they then descend to earth in the New Jerusalem.

 

[Douggg]

After the Flood it was a new heaven and earth like after the 6th Seal there will be a new heaven and earth.

The present earth upon which we live has dinosaur fossils - an era before the flood.

The new heaven and new earth that Peter was speaking about, looking forward to - will not have those dinosaur fossils, because it will be a completely different heaven and earth.

 

[PinSeeker]

The alive that remain will not precede the dead. The dead in Christ will rise first. This is the barley harvest. They will go to heaven with the Lord.
When Jesus returns for the alive that remain, he will bring the dead with Him and when the alive are caught up we will meet the Lord in the air. This is the wheat harvest. All go to heaven with the Lord This is the pre trib rapture.

When Paul says, in 1 Thessalonians 4:15, "...we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep," he is speaking to a specific concern among the Thessalonian believers, which is either that they thought a.) that the dead would rise only after the second coming, or b.) that the dead had no hope of salvation at all. Either way, Paul was reassuring them that deceased believers would not be excluded from salvation at the Lord's coming. The meaning of that Greek word translated to the English 'precede' is important, there; it is not merely that the dead in Christ will rise before those who are alive, but that the dead in Christ will not be excluded in any way from salvation but rather included in it. .

If you are referring to the Lord's "separating the wheat from the tares" per His parable in Matthew 13, then yes, I agree that it is a final harvest. But again, there is absolutely nothing in what Paul says here in 1 Thessalonians 4 (or anywhere else for that matter) that insinuates any kind of "removal" of believers from earth or "transporting them" anywhere.

The dead in Christ will rise first.

Well, right, that's what the text says, for sure, but that is to be understood in this way, that the dead in Christ will not be excluded from this final gathering of all those who are in Christ. They will join those still alive, will also have eternal life and thus, with those still alive, "always with the Lord." Jesus Himself said in John 5:28-29, that "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." What we see at the final Judgment ~ depicted graphically as follows:

• "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. Before Him will be gathered all the nations, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And He will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left" (Matthew 25:31-33)
• "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it. From His presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done" (Revelation 20:11-13).

There is also a fruit harvest which occurs at the second coming when Jesus remains in the clouds to gather the elect from heaven and earth. The dead in Christ and the alive that were caught up will come with Him as the Lord returns for the fruit harvest. Here is the first fruits of that harvest.
Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

These 144,000 are redeemed FROM THE EARTH and are BEFORE THE THRONE. That's the first fruits of the harvest. When the harvest occurs they go to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb.

"Redeemed/redemption" and "removed/removal" are not synonyms, The Light. :) By definition, redemption is compensation for the faults or bad aspects or defects of (something), or to gain or regain possession of (something) in exchange for payment. This is what Jesus did for us on the cross, which... surely you'll agree with... As for removal, that needs no explanation, but the point to be made regarding removal is that God never ~ never ~ promises to remove us from trouble... or trial or tribulation... but promises over and over and over again throughout Scripture to walk with us through it. Psalm 23 comes immediately to mind, of course, where David sings, "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever." And, Jesus says, "And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

As for Revelation 14 specifically, I submit that the 144.000 are the same 144,000 referred to in Revelation 7:1-7. The 144,000 represent the saints in their complete number, and symbolize all the people of God, every one of which is known and numbered by God. I agree that we should also see the true Jewish heritage of this group of people, but not in the sense that they are merely ethnic Jews, but true Jews of the Israel of God as Paul speaks of in Romans 2:28-29, those who are "Jews not merely outwardly" but "inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter." And regarding Revelation 7 specifically, the 144,000 of verses 1-7 ~ 10,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel ~ is the same group of people described in verses 8-17 as an innumerable multitude... all the saints of God.

Lastly, we should understand "redeemed from the earth" not in the sense of removal or transportation from the earth but rather separated from the rest of humanity and fallen creation and made holy... consecrated to God, by God Himself, as in Him preserving a remnant unto Himself, those to whom He grants eternal life. Again, it is not these who are "removed," but the unrepentant, the unbelieving, the wicked, those who "will not stand in the judgment..." ...will not stand "in the congregation of the righteous; for the LORD knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish" (Psalm 1).

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

The righteous are removed from the earth before the wrath of God. And the Church is removed from the earth BEFORE the tribulation. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. The Church is gone as Noah was in ark 6 days before the flood.

The Church can escape all the things that Jesus mentions. That's the tribulation. We can stand in heaven before the throne just as the Word says.

Ah, Revelation 19. Well, I'll just point out what I said earlier in this thread, that John's Revelation is not strictly chronological as many understand it. Chapters 1-3 are sort of a prologue and preface and then from Revelation 4 on, the outline looks like this:

• Cycle 1: Seven seals... Revelation 4:1-8:1
• Cycle 2: Seven trumpets... Revelation 8:2-11:19
• Cycle 3: Symbolic figures and the harvest... Revelation 12:1-14:20
• Cycle 4: Seven bowls... Revelation 15:1-16:21
• Cycle 5: Judgment of Babylon... Revelation 17:1-19:10
• Cycle 6: White horse judgment... Revelation 19:11-21
• Cycle 7: White throne judgment... Revelation 20:1-21:8
• The culminating act: new Jerusalem 21:9-22:5

The cycles parallel one another. All cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming. But each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. Moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself. The first part of Revelation 19, The Light, which you quoted here, occurs at the end of Cycle 5, and so is at least roughly parallel to what should be understood to occur at the end of Cycle 6 ~ so shortly after Christ's enemies are destroyed at the end of Revelation 19 ~ and at the end of Cycle 7 ~ so shortly after the events described at the end of Revelation 20 and the coming of the New Heaven and the New Earth in Revelation 21:1-8.

The righteous are not removed from the earth. Jesus comes, wins the final victory, resurrects all (either to eternal life or to judgment), executes the final Judgment, and then comes the New Heaven and New Earth and eternity. The only ones removed are the unrighteous... as in Noah's day, actually, too; the ones removed from creation were... everyone besides Noah and his family (and the animals, of course), who were kept safe in the Ark, protected from the storm, as it were. As such, the Ark is representative ~ a "type" or "shadow" ~ of Jesus, who saves and protects us through the storm... through all manner of tribulation. :)

...continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Ah, the King James. It's not "bad," or "wrong," of course, but the antiquated language makes it a little harder for our modern ears to understand in places. If you would, consider the ESV or the NASB, which translate this verse respectively as follows:

• "But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."
• "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

If we were to think of this 'escape' as a removal, then Jesus, in Luke 21, would seem to be saying that we somehow remove ourselves (rather than Him removing us in a "rapture"), which is a ridiculous thought. I would say that what Jesus says here is along the same lines as what Paul says (after Jesus's crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, of course) in Ephesians 6:11-18 ~

"Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication."

It could also be closely correlated to what the prophet Joel says, in Joel 2:28-32 ~

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out My Spirit. And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."

I believe you are not correct about these things.

Understood. But, The Light, I believe the same about you, my friend.

We are world apart on this brother.

Maybe, but maybe it only seems so. :)

Can I ask you did you learn these things yourself or are they taught in a Church?

Um, yes. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

The present earth upon which we live has dinosaur fossils - an era before the flood.

The new heaven and new earth that Peter was speaking about, looking forward to - will not have those dinosaur fossils, because it will be a completely different heaven and earth.

How do you know there will be no dinosaur fossils during the Day of the Lord? Peter was talking about the Day of the Lord, not Revelation 21.

Peter echoes Daniel 9:24. There is no sin and decay in the Millennium Kingdom.

"look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness"

"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness"

 

[Keraz]

Ah, the King James. It's not "bad," or "wrong," of course, but the antiquated language makes it a little harder for our modern ears to understand in places. If you would, consider the ESV or the NASB, which translate this verse respectively as follows:

• "But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."
• "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

If we were to think of this 'escape' as a removal, then Jesus, in Luke 21, would seem to be saying that we somehow remove ourselves (rather than Him removing us in a "rapture"), which is a ridiculous thought

An even better translation is the Revised English Bible, 1987 Oxford Press.
Luke 21:36 Be on the alert, praying at all times for strength to pass safely through all that is coming.....
This rendering does not contradict the previous verse, which says; that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.

Rabid rapturists add to their error by saying; Oh; everyone in the world doesn't mean us, as we will be gone to heaven! Unfortunately, they can provide no scriptural support for such a pretentious belief.
The stupidity of the pre, mid or post rapture controversy, shows what a monstrous lie the whole 'rapture to heaven' idea really is.

 

[Douggg]

How do you know there will be no dinosaur fossils during the Day of the Lord? Peter was talking about the Day of the Lord, not Revelation 21.

Peter was talking about many things in 2Peter3.

The Day of the Lord begins with this present heaven and earth in tact. The Day of the Lord has no ending, but this present heaven and earth do.

Peter echoes Daniel 9:24. There is no sin and decay in the Millennium Kingdom.

No he does not. Daniel 9:24 does not say there will be no more sin after the 70th week is complete, nor decay. There will be sin during the 1000 year millennium or else there would not be the one last rebellion when the 1000 years have expired.

Jesus's death and resurrection made an end to sin's destruction of the soul, by believing upon Jesus's atonement for our sins.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[Keraz]

The Day of the Lord begins with this present heaven and earth in tact. The Day of the Lord has no ending, but this present heaven and earth do.

This is unhelpful.
Many Prophesies tell us the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, will be a literal one 24 hour day event.

No he does not. Daniel 9:24 does not say there will be no more sin after the 70th week is complete, nor decay. There will be sin during the 1000 year millennium or else there would not be the one last rebellion at the end of it.

I agree, but only after Satan is released for a short season; Revelation 20:7

 

[Douggg]

The rebellion happens after the Millennium is over not at the end of it.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

I edited my post to be more precise.

 

[Timtofly]

No he does not. Daniel 9:24 does not say there will be no more sin after the 70th week is complete, nor decay. There will be sin during the 1000 year millennium or else there would not be the one last rebellion when the 1000 years have expired.

"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness"

Sin and death was the punishment given to Adam's disobedience passed on to his offspring.

There was no sin and death before Adam disobeyed.

Pretty sure at the end of the Day of the Lord, people decieved by Satan will be like Eve, without sin, but obviously enticed to do something strange and unknown. For listening to Satan, all they get is being consumed by fire.

 

[The Light]

You are still not reading verse 20.

How long is 1600 furlongs ?

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

You don't understand what you are reading Doug. You are trying separate this event this as a separate event that happens in Rev 15. This event happens when Jesus comes to earth with the armies of heaven.

Maybe this will help.

Revelation 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

This event is part of the wrath of God. In other words, this event happens during the trumpets. Here is a different view in the vials

Revelation 16
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.