Christianity as a Closed System
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
My thinking is that we should listen to the Lord - and that to you is "no use"???
Or perhaps you think it "speculative"?
Ok - so you are going to continue to think that anyone knocking at your door, and even with their voice is "Rude" and it makes you feel bad, so you are not going to change anything.
What I don't get is why you write:
The most important commandment is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Eternal One is our God, and the Eternal One is the only God.,
32 he is one, and that there is no other besides him
Mark 12:29, 32 (VOICE, CJB)
I can only guess that commandment really bothers you, since it is Him (the Eternal One) talking at the door that we have to open to hear from Him and keep that commandment. You think Him rude, according to what you wrote. And that He give you "eternal conscious torment."? And He causes you some type of 'guilt trip'?
I kind of get it - we do have to repent, and He is going to reprove us, just as written:
Rev 3: 19,20 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
So tell me honestly; where does that actually leave you - considering you know the 'most important commandment' but it makes you think He is rude, and He makes you feel a 'guilt trip' - and that is not going to change anything?
I can see your "thinking" in your post#161.
I wonder why there is so much intolerance here with JWs and disrespectful mockers like yourself are freely posting in the forum with nobody question their behavior and their propagation of anti-Christian ideas.
Are you a sponsor of the website and do you have free rein to make fun of Christians here?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
That’s where you are flat out wrong. People are invited not coerced into the kingdom. ‘believe as I do are you going burn in hell’ is not love but coercion.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Not sure what you mean by a "closed system" since PE is open to reaching out to the world even though not the best approach.
Are not all religions "closed" unless you become as they are?
i was raised RCC which is "closed" unless you 'join' and adhere to their religious methodology.
The MAIN difference in Christ is that which CONNECTS us to God = John ch3, ch4, ch17 fulfilled in Acts ch1 & ch2
I am not mocking - that is you, is it not:
Look at what I wrote and what you wrote and compare!!
I wrote 2 questions:
"My thinking is that we should listen to the Lord - and that to you is "no use"???
Or perhaps you think it "speculative"?
And those based on what had been written:
That is not mockery - that is amazement!!!
In Christianity we talk about faith- and specifically faith in Jesus Christ!! What Christian doesn't know this? They must, it is prominently featured in the Bible! And yet someone thinks hearing from the Lord by fiath is "speculative"???
If a person does not believe that is is possible for hear from Jesus Christ by faith, I don't mock them!! I try to tell them that it is possible, and that it is possible to talk to the God, via His Word who is Jesus Christ (not your Bible but the person of Jesus Christ - who real Christians hear from vis His Holy Spirit talking to our spirit) Did we not read that His sheep hear His voice?
So then it is that I find amazing that anyone would be posting on a "Christian" forum and think it "speculative" to say Christians hear His voice, and need to!!!
It is not Jesus Christ who is "unbelievable" but people who claim to be Christians and yet think hearing from Jesus Christ to be "speculative" that is "unbelievable" Still - I am not mocking them, but pointing out this fact to them, because honestly - they are not a Christian no matter what they think and say - because it is still written the His sheep hear His voice and follow Him by hearing His voice!!
Jn 10: 26,27“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"
YOU ARE NOT BEING MOCKED YOU ARE BEING DISPROVEN!!!!!!
In the Bible we find something about a time would come when people would say what is right is wrong, and what is wrong is right. And this time is like that time which was talked about, is it not? That is to say we find people who though they are clearly proven to be wrong, they will still say they are right, as opposed to really considering what is presented. They then present themselves out to be the victim, when they are not such thing. They are not such a thing, they are instead so full of pride that they can't imagine they could ever be wrong!!
Someone thinking like that will never seek the voice of Jesus Christ, because He alone is the only One who is never wrong!! So before He said:
Rev 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me."
he said to John:
Rev 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
You will never ever ever seek the voice and the word God has to say to you (which belong to Jesus Christ) until you understand that He is always going to be right your you are thus going to be proven wrong by Him when you talk to Him!!!
As for me, my instructions from Him are clear!! I am supposed to preach the Word of God and that to me Him and He wants people to listen to Him!!
The best post I have seen on this thread was an honest presentation of how we are with Him and it was post # 161 by St. SteVen!
Still, I don't think people really understand that post and the picture in it! The picture shows our version of how He is, and not how it really is. Our version is that we don't want to open up to Him and listen to Him, because we want to do what we want to do no matter how wrong we are!! Which is to say we are not going to accept "reproof! even though it would make us better! So He tells us He will save us (from out body of sin - and all unrighteousness is sin). So we ask from what are you going to save us from God. Now He actually says from sin and death, but we interpret that to mean from Him - because we do understand that God has to clean up sin and death (Us in our body)
Now He wants to clean us up by talking to us and reasoning with us, and showing us what is right like a teacher would show things to their students and disciples. But if you are not going to listen to Him, and going to remain in that rebellious state then sooner or later all those things will be burned and gotten ride of, simply because He needs to get rid of sin and unrighteousness.
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Endless discussion with no end. You don't know me; Jesus does.
I don't care what you think about me, so don't make the thread something personal.
If you don't like my comment:
True Christian INDIVIDUALS, in a closed system or not, always have to be learning, because they can never know everything.
This is my last post in this thread.
PS: I don't know why I have the impression that most of the threads opened on this forum are automatic and only created to generate traffic. The truth is that if any honest Christian is behind this lack of respect for God's affairs, he should consider that more important than money is having God's approval... and to have that we all have to learn to respect Him.
I don't care what you think about me, so don't make the thread something personal.
If you don't like my comment:
... or about Christendom in general:
It's Ok with me.
True Christian INDIVIDUALS, in a closed system or not, always have to be learning, because they can never know everything.
This is my last post in this thread.
PS: I don't know why I have the impression that most of the threads opened on this forum are automatic and only created to generate traffic. The truth is that if any honest Christian is behind this lack of respect for God's affairs, he should consider that more important than money is having God's approval... and to have that we all have to learn to respect Him.
Every topic lists the originator under the title. Nothing automatic about it. Every one handcrafted for our readers.
\
Does Jesus know you? and in what sense? And more importantly, do you know Him?
In case you don't actually know Him, let me just tell you that He is a person with personality! So a Christian actually gets to know Him personally!! Him and I - we talk! And because of that I can tell you or anyone about the things we talk about. Today, when I got up, He asked me personally if I wanted to talk. That was the very first thing I heard from Him today. The thing was, that I was not all that interested in talking to Him at that moment. I am not why, but that I just wanted to get a shower, check out the new kitten my wife got, and just didn't feel like talking to Him and that moment. A bit later we talk, because I sat down, prayed the Lord's prayer and listen to Him for a moment. He let me get going on my business, even saying that we (Him and I) had a lot of things to get done today. So I got going on my business, and after I made a bit of progress, He wanted me to come and respond to this post today.
And so I don't make it about " Christendom in general"!!!
Because Christianity is not about "Christendom in general" but about a personally relationship with God, via the Word of God, which is the name of the person who we know personally - and that person, who is the Son of God and God the Son, is our Saviour (Jesus - which mean God's salvation).
And He, The Christ, does not have a "closed system", but it open to and even desires that people would actually talk to Him and He with them! That is not "Christendom", that is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ!! That is not "Religion", that is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ! That is not thinking of a "system" closed or not, but that is thinking about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ!!
So am I taking what you write as "personal"?????
Silly - I would not be writing you if He didn't ask me. I have a business to run, things to do, and frankly I have a hard time caring for someone like you. But that is not true with Him. He cares for you. He wants to talk to you. His great desire is to get to know people, His creation, and have them know Him!!
Therefore the work of God is that all should come to know the Son! But if you are writing about "closed systems", and "Christendom in general", as opposed to Him personally, do you really know Him?
I don't actually know, but I do know He asked me to write and respond, and what you write is not like what I write. I tell people about Him and how they can really get to know Him. Oh - I guess I could talk about "closed systems", and " Christendom in general", but that doesn't interest me so much. Oh, it interests me a bit. I did enjoy reading a couple of books on Christian history and enjoyed them. But even reading them seemed to show that people don't want to seek Him and actually listen to Him.
I understand. As mentioned above; there are times when I am not all that interested in talking to Him, but to me He is a lot like that old Lays Potatoe chip ad which mentioned that you can't eat just one. Once you really talk back and for with Him you have to go back and talk to Him some more, don't you. I do. Talking back and forth with Him has become a way of life with me, like eating is.
So to me, Christianity is about walking and talking with Him a number of times a day. So Christianity has nothing to do with Christendom!!!
Christendom is about those phonies that pretend they know the Lord and that He knows them! Christianity is about believers who know the Lord and He knows them personally! So I would suggest to you quite the opposite as you suggested to me! I would suggest that you make knowing the Lord personal!
From the OP.
As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system.
Which had an odd antithetical twist. You can't DO evangelism without talking to the "lost". (those outside the closed system)
And only mature evangelicals were even allowed to do it, for fear you might be talked out of the system.
Evangelism was a "required" activity that involved talking AT the "lost", not talking WITH the "lost".
People became projects. And if the "project" seemed like a waste of time,
you could "shake the dust off your feet" and absolve yourself of any responsibility toward them.
(their blood not being on your hands)
In preparation for talking at the "lost" projects, we were armed with Christian Apologetics. (counter-arguments)
You were bound to encounter resistance to the "message" from the closed system.
The "success" of the evangelist depended on the strength of their counter-arguments.
Much more to say about this. Everyone and everything outside the closed system was held in suspicion.
Which required negative opinions about all of those things, so as to assure keeping a safe distance.
I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences
with church, or Christianity in general?
Or...
Thoughts from those who would defend Christianity,
or a church, as a closed system. Seeing value in it.
www.christianityboard.com
[
As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system.
Which had an odd antithetical twist. You can't DO evangelism without talking to the "lost". (those outside the closed system)
And only mature evangelicals were even allowed to do it, for fear you might be talked out of the system.
Evangelism was a "required" activity that involved talking AT the "lost", not talking WITH the "lost".
People became projects. And if the "project" seemed like a waste of time,
you could "shake the dust off your feet" and absolve yourself of any responsibility toward them.
(their blood not being on your hands)
In preparation for talking at the "lost" projects, we were armed with Christian Apologetics. (counter-arguments)
You were bound to encounter resistance to the "message" from the closed system.
The "success" of the evangelist depended on the strength of their counter-arguments.
Much more to say about this. Everyone and everything outside the closed system was held in suspicion.
Which required negative opinions about all of those things, so as to assure keeping a safe distance.
I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences
with church, or Christianity in general?
Or...
Thoughts from those who would defend Christianity,
or a church, as a closed system. Seeing value in it.
Theistic Agnosticism - The honesty to admit we don't know everything
This term came up this morning in a discussion over coffee. I thought it worth discussing further. Being raised in the church, I was held in a bubble of "we have all the answers." Now that I am an adult, I realize the reason for that. We DIDN'T have all the questions. I know, I know... (who...
www.christianityboard.com
[
From the OP.
As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system.
Which had an odd antithetical twist. You can't DO evangelism without talking to the "lost". (those outside the closed system)
And only mature evangelicals were even allowed to do it, for fear you might be talked out of the system.
Evangelism was a "required" activity that involved talking AT the "lost", not talking WITH the "lost".
People became projects. And if the "project" seemed like a waste of time,
you could "shake the dust off your feet" and absolve yourself of any responsibility toward them.
(their blood not being on your hands)
In preparation for talking at the "lost" projects, we were armed with Christian Apologetics. (counter-arguments)
You were bound to encounter resistance to the "message" from the closed system.
The "success" of the evangelist depended on the strength of their counter-arguments.
Much more to say about this. Everyone and everything outside the closed system was held in suspicion.
Which required negative opinions about all of those things, so as to assure keeping a safe distance.
I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences
with church, or Christianity in general?
Or...
Thoughts from those who would defend Christianity,
or a church, as a closed system. Seeing value in it.
Theistic Agnosticism - The honesty to admit we don't know everything
This term came up this morning in a discussion over coffee. I thought it worth discussing further. Being raised in the church, I was held in a bubble of "we have all the answers." Now that I am an adult, I realize the reason for that. We DIDN'T have all the questions. I know, I know... (who...
[
| Mt 5:48 | Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect (complete) Who among us, within or without, any 'closed system' is already there? That is... as perfect [or complete] as God is? |
Yes.
Love your enemies. (vs 44)
If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?
Even the tax collectors doing that? (vs 46)
And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others?
Do not even pagans do that? (vs 47)
[
MA2444
Well-Known Member
This is an extension of a previous topic.
Theistic Agnosticism - The honesty to admit we don't know everything
This term came up this morning in a discussion over coffee. I thought it worth discussing further. Being raised in the church, I was held in a bubble of "we have all the answers." Now that I am an adult, I realize the reason for that. We DIDN'T have all the questions. I know, I know... (who...
As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system.
Which had an odd antithetical twist. You can't DO evangelism without talking to the "lost". (those outside the closed system)
And only mature evangelicals were even allowed to do it, for fear you might be talked out of the system.
Evangelism was a "required" activity that involved talking AT the "lost", not talking WITH the "lost".
People became projects. And if the "project" seemed like a waste of time,
you could "shake the dust off your feet" and absolve yourself of any responsibility toward them.
(their blood not being on your hands)
In preparation for talking at the "lost" projects, we were armed with Christian Apologetics. (counter-arguments)
You were bound to encounter resistance to the "message" from the closed system.
The "success" of the evangelist depended on the strength of their counter-arguments.
Much more to say about this. Everyone and everything outside the closed system was held in suspicion.
Which required negative opinions about all of those things, so as to assure keeping a safe distance.
I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences with church, or Christianity in general?
Or...
Thoughts from those who would defend Christianity, or a church, as a closed system. Seeing value in it.
See this thread is a prime example of being too negative.
"Which required negative opinions about all those things, so as to assure keeping a safe distance..."
Do you keep a safe distance from the lost now? So have you given up on evangelism also? But that's our mission here! We have possession of the light because we are in Christ and all those lost souls need encouragment, not discouragement. Would you not help a fallen comrade?
Dont show up alone on the other side! Be able to say, Lord, look who I brought with me! Havent you read how all of Heaven rejoices when a single soul is saved? I dont want to show up alone. I'll talk with the lost. I'm willing to try at least. You dont know that because you gave up on the word too.
WHy dont you start a thread on...the Joy of the Lord sometime? Give it a real positive spin that will get people thinking about God, their Lord and how much praise He is worthy of!
MA2444
Well-Known Member
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