Christianity as a Closed System

[St. SteVen]

This is an extension of a previous topic.

Theistic Agnosticism - The honesty to admit we don't know everything

This term came up this morning in a discussion over coffee. I thought it worth discussing further. Being raised in the church, I was held in a bubble of "we have all the answers." Now that I am an adult, I realize the reason for that. We DIDN'T have all the questions. I know, I know... (who...

www.christianityboard.com

As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system.
Which had an odd antithetical twist. You can't DO evangelism without talking to the "lost". (those outside the closed system)
And only mature evangelicals were even allowed to do it, for fear you might be talked out of the system.

Evangelism was a "required" activity that involved talking AT the "lost", not talking WITH the "lost".
People became projects. And if the "project" seemed like a waste of time,
you could "shake the dust off your feet" and absolve yourself of any responsibility toward them.
(their blood not being on your hands)

In preparation for talking at the "lost" projects, we were armed with Christian Apologetics. (counter-arguments)
You were bound to encounter resistance to the "message" from the closed system.
The "success" of the evangelist depended on the strength of their counter-arguments.

Much more to say about this. Everyone and everything outside the closed system was held in suspicion.
Which required negative opinions about all of those things, so as to assure keeping a safe distance.

I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences with church, or Christianity in general?

Or...

Thoughts from those who would defend Christianity, or a church, as a closed system. Seeing value in it.

 

[Lambano]

I see the tension between the calls to be "salt and light" and to be "not of the world", the former being an open system; the latter being closed. I can see the necessity for both, and the hazards of accentuating one while neglecting the other. If we are too open, we lose our identity and get subsumed into the world. If we're too closed, we neglect God's calling to be light to a dark world and we grow old and useless and die in our self-contained isolation.

What is the proper balance between those tensions? It may come down to individual calling. But of course, birds of a feather tend to flock together...

 

[Wrangler]

You can't DO evangelism without talking to the "lost". (those outside the closed system)

Wrong dichotomy.

It’s not that Christianity is closed; it’s that Christianity is exclusive. And this naturally offends those indoctrinated with false equality and false inclusiveness.

 

[Wrangler]

I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences with church, or Christianity in general?

Totally relate, being raised RCC. Everyone outside the authority of Rome - Peter’s successors - was under the influence of Satan.

Being the scientist, I saw evidence to the contrary.

 

[St. SteVen]

I see the tension between the calls to be "salt and light" and to be "not of the world", the former being an open system; the latter being closed

Interesting thing about the "not of the world" directive, it begins with "we are in the world..."
Most Christians block the world out, if they can do it.

Jesus died to save the world, so He must have seen SOME value in it. Even known as a friend of sinners and tax collectors. (traitors)

I can see the necessity for both, and the hazards of accentuating one while neglecting the other. If we are too open, we lose our identity and get subsumed into the world. If we're too closed, we neglect God's calling to be light to a dark world and we grow old and useless and die in our self-contained isolation.

Good points.
Does being "too open" put us at risk? If so, why?
Is our faith really so tenuous that a light breeze will blow it away?

What is the proper balance between those tensions? It may come down to individual calling. But of course, birds of a feather tend to flock together...

YES! Balance.
Being IN the world, but not OF the world.

 

[St. SteVen]

It’s not that Christianity is closed; it’s that Christianity is exclusive.

Sounds like hairsplitting.

Visitor: "Is this an open church?"
Doorkeeper: "Yes."
Visitor: "May I enter?"
Doorkeeper: "No."
Visitor: "Why not?"
Doorkeeper: "It's exclusive."

And this naturally offends those indoctrinated with false equality and false inclusiveness.

Equality and inclusiveness are false?
(not what you wrote, I know)
Please explain, thanks.

 

[St. SteVen]

Totally relate, being raised RCC. Everyone outside the authority of Rome - Peter’s successors - was under the influence of Satan.

Perfect example, thanks.

Being the scientist, I saw evidence to the contrary.

Scientific evidence? Tell us more.

 

[Lambano]

Does being "too open" put us at risk? If so, why?
Is our faith really so tenuous that a light breeze will blow it away?

It's not about faith. It's about our identity.

 

[Wrangler]

Does being "too open" put us at risk? If so, why?
Is our faith really so tenuous that a light breeze will blow it away?

Yes, there is such a thing as healthy boundaries.

Christ, himself, often left to pray in solitude.

The goal is for us to attract those in the dark. When we start being tempted by the dark, we are ‘too open.’

Also, guard yourself against pride. Evil and sin is not to be trifled with. Categorizing it as a ‘ light breeze’ and presuming our faith is so much greater than the Evil One is folly. Better to always be prudent.

 

[St. SteVen]

It's not about faith. It's about our identity.

That's interesting. Could you unwrap that?
How do identity and open/closed systems work with, or against each other?

Identity is important, though most evangelicals don't want to see it, in a little ironic twist.

Yes. I suppose most evangelicals might be offended in you called them that. (evangelicals)

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes, there is such a thing as healthy boundaries.

Christ, himself, often left to pray in solitude.

The same Christ that socialized with sinners and tax collectors?

The goal is for us to attract those in the dark. When we start being tempted by the dark, we are ‘too open.’

Also, guard yourself against pride. Evil and sin is not to be trifled with. Categorizing it as a ‘ light breeze’ and presuming our faith is so much greater than the Evil One is folly. Better to always be prudent.

Good advice.

 

[Wrangler]

Scientific evidence? Tell us more.

People use science as capital-S, a new age idol.

I use science in the generic sense of study and observe. No denomination has exclusive access to Christ - even though some make that claim.

For instance, last year there were 2 miracles at my church, which is non-denominational.

 

[Lambano]

That's interesting. Could you unwrap that?
How do identity and open/closed systems work with, or against each other?

I don't have any formal education in psychology or sociology, so I don't know if I can unwrap that. I do understand at a gut level that how a person or group defines themselves is important, and I strongly suspect that maintaining group identity has a lot to do with the closed-system nature of the church. Look at how the Bible defines identity markers for God’s people, most notably circumcision, Sabbath observance, and kosher diet. The group identity markers for Christians are less well-defined, which is probably why we fight amongst ourselves so much and have splintered into a myriad of denominations.

Group self-preservation. If how a group defines itself changes, does the group as we know it cease to exist?

Who are we?

 

[Wrangler]

The same Christ that socialized with sinners and tax collectors?

Yes, the very same! Jesus never socialized with unrepentant sinners AND he often took a break to pray in solitude. Why don’t you get the 2nd part of Jesus ministry?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

This is an extension of a previous topic.

Theistic Agnosticism - The honesty to admit we don't know everything

This term came up this morning in a discussion over coffee. I thought it worth discussing further. Being raised in the church, I was held in a bubble of "we have all the answers." Now that I am an adult, I realize the reason for that. We DIDN'T have all the questions. I know, I know... (who...

www.christianityboard.com

As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system.
Which had an odd antithetical twist. You can't DO evangelism without talking to the "lost". (those outside the closed system)
And only mature evangelicals were even allowed to do it, for fear you might be talked out of the system.

Evangelism was a "required" activity that involved talking AT the "lost", not talking WITH the "lost".
People became projects. And if the "project" seemed like a waste of time,
you could "shake the dust off your feet" and absolve yourself of any responsibility toward them.
(their blood not being on your hands)

In preparation for talking at the "lost" projects, we were armed with Christian Apologetics. (counter-arguments)
You were bound to encounter resistance to the "message" from the closed system.
The "success" of the evangelist depended on the strength of their counter-arguments.

Much more to say about this. Everyone and everything outside the closed system was held in suspicion.
Which required negative opinions about all of those things, so as to assure keeping a safe distance.

I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences with church, or Christianity in general?

Or...

Thoughts from those who would defend Christianity, or a church, as a closed system. Seeing value in it.

One can say life itself is a closed system controled by God. He is sovereign. He ordains who will and won't be His sheep, He prepares the heart to receive light and He converts the the dead spirit into a living spirit.
The system is set up for us to know good and evil, (light and darkness). We need to know evil to really appreciate what good is. So it is all ordained by God. Sin and evil is factored into His overall plan.
Apologetics and basic evangelism helps to prepare the heart by breaking down objections and planting seeds, the gospel, the Word.
For instance, I studied the TOE, wrote a 30 page thesis on it and gave it to unvelieving associates at work and my Dad, nrother amd Mom. Years later I received a phone call from the son of a man who just passed away thanking me for the thesis I gave to his father, who after reading it realized it made sense - more than the superficial understanding of Evolution that he had followed all his life. Before death, he received the Lord.
My Dad was a harder nut to crack, though whatever false beliefs from the Discovery Channel that he adopted began to dissolve. Prior to his death, he came to Jesus for forgiveness.
I chipped away at my Mom's smorgsbord of false beliefs for 30 years: reincarnation, Astrology, the Universal Energy Force and her prideful position that she was could attain salvation by her own good works. She reject the concept of Jesus dying for our sins, rejected the idea that she ever sinned herself. She basically glorfied herself - all her life. A bit narcistic. But days before her death, she was singing praises to Jesus! Wow, I just about gave up hope, but miracles do happen.
All these efforts are like seeds planted. They may remain dormant until God's perfect timing, until the person is ready. Sometimes it takes a lifetime, or a loss, sickness, or total bankruptsy on your death bed. Some people need to be stripped of everything before God gets their attention. Others are less rebellious.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks for weighing in on this topic.

One can say life itself is a closed system controled by God. He is sovereign.

In defense of the church/Christianity as a closed system?
I'm objecting to the echo chamber that the church has become. The information that was kept from us, in order to keep us.

He is sovereign. He ordains who will and won't be His sheep, He prepares the heart to receive light and He converts the the dead spirit into a living spirit.

So, he predestines who will be "saved", and who will remain "lost"?

The system is set up for us to know good and evil, (light and darkness). We need to know evil to really appreciate what good is. So it is all ordained by God. Sin and evil is factored into His overall plan.

As in, Christianity is "good" and everything outside is "evil"?
That's a great example of closed system thinking. But is it true?

 

[St. SteVen]

Apologetics and basic evangelism helps to prepare the heart by breaking down objections and planting seeds, the gospel, the Word.
For instance, I studied the TOE, wrote a 30 page thesis on it and gave it to unvelieving associates at work and my Dad, nrother amd Mom. Years later I received a phone call from the son of a man who just passed away thanking me for the thesis I gave to his father, who after reading it realized it made sense - more than the superficial understanding of Evolution that he had followed all his life. Before death, he received the Lord.
My Dad was a harder nut to crack, though whatever false beliefs from the Discovery Channel that he adopted began to dissolve. Prior to his death, he came to Jesus for forgiveness.
I chipped away at my Mom's smorgsbord of false beliefs for 30 years: reincarnation, Astrology, the Universal Energy Force and her prideful position that she was could attain salvation by her own good works. She reject the concept of Jesus dying for our sins, rejected the idea that she ever sinned herself. She basically glorfied herself - all her life. A bit narcistic. But days before her death, she was singing praises to Jesus! Wow, I just about gave up hope, but miracles do happen.
All these efforts are like seeds planted. They may remain dormant until God's perfect timing, until the person is ready. Sometimes it takes a lifetime, or a loss, sickness, or total bankruptsy on your death bed. Some people need to be stripped of everything before God gets their attention. Others are less rebellious.

Thanks for sharing this personal testimony. I always respect and appreciate that.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I'm objecting to the echo chamber that the church has become. The information that was kept from us, in order to keep us

Okay, nit I am not sure what part of God's plan you are objecting to? Everyrhing happens for a reason. ( Romans 8:28)

So, he predestines who will be "saved", and who will remain "lost"?

Well let's see:

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" Romans 9:21

“The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied." 1 Peter 1, 2

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.”
“In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:3-4

“Also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:11-12

“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30

“Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” 2 Timothy 1:9

“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.” John 15:16

“So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.” Colossians 3:12-13

“Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness.” Titus 1:1

“But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.” 2 Thessalonians 2:13

“For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.” Deuteronomy 7:7

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44

God's whole plan was predestined. All details need to work together. Romans 8:28 could not mran anything if this were not true. All historical events have fallen exactly in place precisely at the time He ordained them to happen. Nothing can thwart His plan, otherwise He would have to continually reconfogure every moment in time - which would not look like a reliable plan at all.
The Book of Life had all who were chosen/ elect written in it before the foundation of the world.

As in, Christianity is "good" and everything outside is "evil"?
That's a great example of closed system thinking. But is it true?

No, almost everyone on earth is exposed to both good and evil. Sadly some children are born into poverty and statve to death. But maybe they see their Mommy holding them, trying to comfort them, showing them they are not alone, doing all they can?
My parents had goodness in them, yet they weren't Christians until just before they died in their 80's. God guided them to that point and since I was to become a Christian at age 35, I needed to see both good and evil in them and the world to realize and appreciate all that God has done for us.

 

[Karl Peters]

What a sad thread!! Does anyone here even know Him?

The Lord asked me to come and post this morning, which fortunately is not something I have been asked to do for a bit, but since HE asked me, ok.

First of all, while the Lord may know which people are going to come and get to know Him, that does not mean knowing Him is closed to anyone!!!!! Or have not you even read:

Rev 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Do you see the "anyone" in the above veres???? That means ANYONE!! AS IN NOT EXCLUSIVE OR A CLOSED SYSTEM!!!

Now religious people who are depending on their place in an organization, will want it to be an exclusive of closed system, but that just shows they don't know Him who is called the Lord of lords and King of kings!!!!!

I was walking with Him the other day and He was making a big deal about Him "ALWAYS BEING THE LORD OR LORDS", as He put it. I was wondering why He seemed to be making such a big deal about this issue, because I don't doubt it. After reading this thread this morning, I now know why. Obviously, a large number of people called "Christians", fail to understand that all things were created by through Him and for Him. They fail badly to understand that He is Lord over ALL THINGS!!! So not exclusive or a closed system!! That is what people make Christianity to be, NOT HIM!! Or do you never listen to Him???

For example:

Yes, the very same! Jesus never socialized with unrepentant sinners AND he often took a break to pray in solitude. Why don’t you get the 2nd part of Jesus ministry?

The above is sooooooo completly wrong, except for one little detail.

Jn 4:7 There *came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus *said to her, “Give Me a drink.”

There were a couple of major problems with Jesus talking to this lady, from other people's point of view. First, He was talking to a lady alone, and second He was talking to a Samaritan sinner, according to the thinking at the time.

Jn 4:27 At this point His disciples came, and they were amazed that He had been speaking with a woman, yet no one said, “What do You seek?” or, “Why do You speak with her?”

Now read closely, His disciple were even amazed - that He was not exclusive and just abiding in a closed system, and this proves Wranlger to be WRONG, in the thread!!

There is though one thing that is needed for anyone to listen to Him, and that is they have to be open to listening to Him!!!!

That was the case then, and is absolutely the case now!! That lady could have ignored Jesus, and not listened to Him. Which is to say the she too could have been exclusive and wanting to stay in her own little closed system of Samaria people.

That is where repentance comes in!! If a person is not going to repent, be stubborn, and not willing to seek what He has to say to them, then they will live in a closed system of their own making, and it will not include Jesus Christ. Now they can call that closed system of theirs anything they want, like My Church, but Jesus Christ is not going to be part of their life. They have to include Him, the Lord of lords and King of kings in their life, and if they do they will discover quickly that He is willing to talk to "ANYONE" who decides they want to talk to Him!!

This brings us to evangelism, as it is supposed to be!!! It is supposed to be to "ANYONE" like we read in the writings of John and heard from Jesus Christ Himself!!! And it is for anyone who know Jesus Christ as the Word of God - meaning Him who comes and talks with them by using the words of God, which He owns!!

He you really know Him, you know that He want that none should perish!!! That none means none!! But people will perish if they don't believe in Him, and believing in Him means believing He is who His is - The Word of God who speaks to us via His Holy Spirit and who is the King of kings and Lord or lords!! And as He personally told me - He is always the King of kings and Lord of lords!!!

Still, He made us and gave us free will to not listen to Him or to listen to Him. It is not all that hard to tell who does and who does not listen to Him. Those people declaring themselves to be an exclusive group don't listen to Him, no matter what they want to tell you.

Yeah, He has His sheep!!! They are those who listen to Him!! Any person can become part of His flock, not that all will listen to Him. The Pharisees didn't, but even they could have and Jesus told them that they need to, and today they have been told the same thing!

Rev 3:19,20 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

People, God is love and He loves His creation, all of it! Yet people have been given free will to really seek Him or not. He has put before you good and evil, choose good and only God is good. Not that He didn't create us good, but we have all sinned and fallen short. So anyone posting here is a sinner. That is what you are included in!! So repent and seek Him for what He has to personally tell you!! And that is available to "ANYONE", even all us sinners!

 

[Wrangler]

What a sad thread!!

The above is sooooooo completly wrong,

Very judgmental post. Claiming God told you to write so hardly holds up to scrutiny.