Did Jesus say that adultery is grounds for divorce? - Nope.

[Rita]

Too many posts to keep deleting, but I thought this thread was about ground for divorce ect, not about which Bible is correct ect.

 

[St. SteVen]

Too many posts to keep deleting, but I thought this thread was about ground for divorce ect, not about which Bible is correct ect.

Yes! Thank you.

Let's get back on topic folks. (read the OP)

/

 

[Jethro2]

The position of the church and society at large is mistaken as to what Jesus was quoted as saying in the gospels. IMHO
Let's discuss.

Questions:
1) What did Jesus actually say?
2) Why did he say it?
3) If we got this wrong, where do we go from here?

The position of the church and society at large is that adultery (sexual immorality) is grounds for divorce.
And they will quote Jesus as an authority on this. But is Jesus being misquoted? Yes, I believe so.
The biggest problem is the disconnect we have with the culture that Jesus was speaking to.

The church teaches that the only grounds for divorce is adultery. (sexual immorality)
But that is not what Jesus actually said.

The basis for this teaching is found in Matthew 19:9
See the NIV translation below, taking note of verse 10 as well as verse 9. (at the very bottom of this post)
Then compare the KJV below that. Note the use of the word "fornication" which matches the NT Greek.

This makes a HUGE difference, especially when considering the cultural setting of the Israelites under the law.
Jesus was saying that the only grounds for divorce is fornication, which is sexual intercourse before marriage. (not after)
What does this mean? Both in the historical context and to the misinterpretation assigned by the church today. ???

For the Israelites, a bride's parents presented her as a virgin to her husband-to-be. The law of Moses made a provision for this.
If the husband-to-be discovered that he had been given a bride that was not a virgin, he could divorce her. (for fornication)
Unfortunately, some new husbands were making false claims in order to divorce their new brides. The fornication loophole.
Parents were allowed to challenge this claim if it was false. See Deuteronomy 22:16-18

Therefore, the KJV translation is correct and the church got it wrong.
Jesus said there is no grounds for divorce except for fornication. Now read verse 10 again.
Better not to marry? Indeed. Not if you have ANY plans to divorce.

Matthew 19:8-10 NIV
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

--- COMPARE ---

Matthew 19:8-10 KJV
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:
but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

/

Good Truth is rare and precioius.
But will billions of people ever care ?

 

[Jethro2]

I've become rather frustrated (a bit stroppy, as Aunty would say) with trying to communicate the importance of what Jesus meant.

One group of students in similar fashion were stymied - unsuccessful - trying to save anyone on the campus where they tried and tried and tried daily with
a lot of prayer and Bible reading and 'sharing' of either Bible info OR tracts about the Bible and Salvation.
Week after week they had almost no one choose to be healed (saved), and they did not understand.

Finally, I don't remember why, they STOPPED.
No more trying to save the other students (or faculty or visitors).
No more giving out tracts or info or sharing constantly.
No more frustration at not reaching people with such an important message , with Truth.

Do you happen to know "the rest of their testimony" ?

....
....
.. they did not stop praying. .......... they started trusting Jesus....

They were available to students and others who asked questions ! Only those who asked them for info or for tracts or for Salvation/healing....

And God Who Gives Growth, Gave Success! His Success. Students and others converted/ saved/ healed.

 

[St. SteVen]

One group of students in similar fashion were stymied - unsuccessful - trying to save anyone on the campus where they tried and tried and tried daily with
a lot of prayer and Bible reading and 'sharing' of either Bible info OR tracts about the Bible and Salvation.
Week after week they had almost no one choose to be healed (saved), and they did not understand.

Finally, I don't remember why, they STOPPED.
No more trying to save the other students (or faculty or visitors).
No more giving out tracts or info or sharing constantly.
No more frustration at not reaching people with such an important message , with Truth.

Do you happen to know "the rest of their testimony" ?

....
....
.. they did not stop praying. .......... they started trusting Jesus....

They were available to students and others who asked questions ! Only those who asked them for info or for tracts or for Salvation/healing....

And God Who Gives Growth, Gave Success! His Success. Students and others converted/ saved/ healed.

Welcome to the forum.
That's a great testimony, thanks!

/

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The position of the church and society at large is mistaken as to what Jesus was quoted as saying in the gospels. IMHO
Let's discuss.

Questions:
1) What did Jesus actually say?
2) Why did he say it?
3) If we got this wrong, where do we go from here?

The position of the church and society at large is that adultery (sexual immorality) is grounds for divorce.
And they will quote Jesus as an authority on this. But is Jesus being misquoted? Yes, I believe so.
The biggest problem is the disconnect we have with the culture that Jesus was speaking to.

The church teaches that the only grounds for divorce is adultery. (sexual immorality)
But that is not what Jesus actually said.

The basis for this teaching is found in Matthew 19:9
See the NIV translation below, taking note of verse 10 as well as verse 9. (at the very bottom of this post)
Then compare the KJV below that. Note the use of the word "fornication" which matches the NT Greek.

This makes a HUGE difference, especially when considering the cultural setting of the Israelites under the law.
Jesus was saying that the only grounds for divorce is fornication, which is sexual intercourse before marriage. (not after)
What does this mean? Both in the historical context and to the misinterpretation assigned by the church today. ???

For the Israelites, a bride's parents presented her as a virgin to her husband-to-be. The law of Moses made a provision for this.
If the husband-to-be discovered that he had been given a bride that was not a virgin, he could divorce her. (for fornication)
Unfortunately, some new husbands were making false claims in order to divorce their new brides. The fornication loophole.
Parents were allowed to challenge this claim if it was false. See Deuteronomy 22:16-18

Therefore, the KJV translation is correct and the church got it wrong.
Jesus said there is no grounds for divorce except for fornication. Now read verse 10 again.
Better not to marry? Indeed. Not if you have ANY plans to divorce.

Matthew 19:8-10 NIV
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

--- COMPARE ---

Matthew 19:8-10 KJV
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:
but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

/

People can divorce for many reasons. It is divorce and remarriage that the bible gives only three reasons why one can do so.

1. Death of a spouse.
2. Repeated adultery in a marriage by one spouse (sexual sin)
3. An unbelieving spouse no longer wishes to remain with the believer for reasons of the faith.

 

[St. SteVen]

People can divorce for many reasons. It is divorce and remarriage that the bible gives only three reasons why one can do so.

1. Death of a spouse.
2. Repeated adultery in a marriage by one spouse (sexual sin)
3. An unbelieving spouse no longer wishes to remain with the believer for reasons of the faith.

I agree with "1. Death of a spouse."
The others I'm not sure about.

/

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I agree with "1. Death of a spouse."
The others I'm not sure about.

/

Matthew 19:9
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

1 Corinthians 7:10-16

King James Version

​

10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

δεδούλωμαι ἔν τινι, to be under bondage, held by constraint of law or necessity, in some matter, 1 Corinthians 7:15. [Compare: καταδουλόω.]
THAYER’S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com

Whewn an unbeliever departs because of the faith, the believer is no longer under the bonds of marriage. That is what "bondage" means in this passage.

 

[Marcipa]

I've become rather frustrated (a bit stroppy, as Aunty would say) with trying to communicate the importance of what Jesus meant.

The church says: Adultery is grounds for divorce.

Jesus says: I never said any such thing.

Divorce is a terribly damaging thing. Blessed by the church.

Yet ANOTHER good reason to DECONSTRUCT.

Working my way up to SPONTANEOUS deconstruction. - LOL

View attachment 39493

/

Actually if Jesus uses the term sexual immorality that means all sexual sin. Adultery would be included in that would it not?

 

[St. SteVen]

Actually if Jesus uses the term sexual immorality that means all sexual sin. Adultery would be included in that would it not?

Welcome to the forum.
Did you read the OP? (opening post - post #1)

The King James translation got this right.
Notice that two different NT Greek words are used, not just one.
Jesus is addressing both fornication and adultery.
Fornication (porneia) as a charge against the parents of the bride,
and adultery as relations between unmarried partners.




/

 

[St. SteVen]

The King James translation got this right.

Matthew 19:8-10 KJV
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:
but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

/

 

[Wynona]

The position of the church and society at large is mistaken as to what Jesus was quoted as saying in the gospels. IMHO
Let's discuss.

Questions:
1) What did Jesus actually say?
2) Why did he say it?
3) If we got this wrong, where do we go from here?

The position of the church and society at large is that adultery (sexual immorality) is grounds for divorce.
And they will quote Jesus as an authority on this. But is Jesus being misquoted? Yes, I believe so.
The biggest problem is the disconnect we have with the culture that Jesus was speaking to.

The church teaches that the only grounds for divorce is adultery. (sexual immorality)
But that is not what Jesus actually said.

The basis for this teaching is found in Matthew 19:9
See the NIV translation below, taking note of verse 10 as well as verse 9. (at the very bottom of this post)
Then compare the KJV below that. Note the use of the word "fornication" which matches the NT Greek.

This makes a HUGE difference, especially when considering the cultural setting of the Israelites under the law.
Jesus was saying that the only grounds for divorce is fornication, which is sexual intercourse before marriage. (not after)
What does this mean? Both in the historical context and to the misinterpretation assigned by the church today. ???

For the Israelites, a bride's parents presented her as a virgin to her husband-to-be. The law of Moses made a provision for this.
If the husband-to-be discovered that he had been given a bride that was not a virgin, he could divorce her. (for fornication)
Unfortunately, some new husbands were making false claims in order to divorce their new brides. The fornication loophole.
Parents were allowed to challenge this claim if it was false. See Deuteronomy 22:16-18

Therefore, the KJV translation is correct and the church got it wrong.
Jesus said there is no grounds for divorce except for fornication. Now read verse 10 again.
Better not to marry? Indeed. Not if you have ANY plans to divorce.

Matthew 19:8-10 NIV
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

--- COMPARE ---

Matthew 19:8-10 KJV
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:
but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

/

Really cool. My husband and I both changed our position on marriage permanence studying this. We see marriage as one flesh for life---meaning separation and divorce are options but Christians should not remarry if their first spouse is still alive.

I don't think it matters if they weren't Christian at the time. I think the church's compromise on marriage permanence has led to a lot of unlawful remarriages.

Because now people think of the divorcrd state as a relationship do-over rather than a state where you must remain by yourself.

I definitely think a lot of couples would stay put and not divorce is they believed remarriage was off the table for them.

 

[St. SteVen]

I definitely think a lot of couples would stay put and not divorce is they believed remarriage was off the table for them.

My parents generation used to joke that they "... would NEVER divorce their spouse, murder maybe, but never divorce!" - LOL

]

 

[St. SteVen]

Really cool. My husband and I both changed our position on marriage permanence studying this. We see marriage as one flesh for life---meaning separation and divorce are options but Christians should not remarry if their first spouse is still alive.

That's very good that you discussed it and came to an agreement about it.

My wife and I married for life. 44 years and still going strong.

/

 

[TLHKAJ]

Actually if Jesus uses the term sexual immorality that means all sexual sin. Adultery would be included in that would it not?

You are correct. It includes a broad range of sexual immorality including harlotry, adultery, incest, fornication, and idolatry. Just because King James used only one of those descriptions doesn't mean the others do not apply.

Greek: πορνεία
Transliteration: porneia
Pronunciation: por-ni'-ah
Definition: From G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.
KJV Usage: fornication (26x).
Occurs: 26
In verses: 25

I bring this out because I know many women who have been forced into marriages where they are being terribly abused (even trafficked) by their husbands. And when they come to Christ, they're told they cannot divorce this man who is subjecting them to such things. That isn't true.

 

[Wick Stick]

Yes, murder is the only socially acceptable solution. - LOL

In the age my parents grew up in, you would never dream of getting a divorce. Murder maybe, but NEVER divorce.

I realize this was tongue-in-cheek, but...

Under Moses' Law, the penalty for adultery (or whatever-name-we-want-to-call-it) was death. The husband had the right to drag his wife before the judge and if guilty she would be stoned to death.

Within that cultural context... divorce was meant to be a mercy. Divorce was meant to be 'we-can't-be-married-anymore-but-I-don't-want-you-killed' rather than 'I-liked-being-single-better.'

The intent behind the rule is important. Like all laws, the law for divorce is profitable when used lawfully... that is, when it is used to spare a life. And also like all laws, the law for divorce is destructive when used as a legal pre-text for misbehavior... that is, when it is used to steal dowries or womanize.

 

[Wick Stick]

I bring this out because I know many women who have been forced into marriages where they are being terribly abused (even trafficked) by their husbands. And when they come to Christ, they're told they cannot divorce this man who is subjecting them to such things. That isn't true.

In that particular case, perhaps the husband needs to be inserted into a wood-chipper. Feet first.

 

[St. SteVen]

Within that cultural context... divorce was meant to be a mercy.

Wow. That's a great cultural insight. I hope all readers got what you were writing. Thanks.

But... how do we balance that with this?

Matthew 19:8 NIV
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard.
But it was not this way from the beginning.

]

 

[BarneyFife]

Wow. That's a great cultural insight. I hope all readers got what you were writing. Thanks.

But... how do we balance that with this?

Matthew 19:8 NIV
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard.
But it was not this way from the beginning.

]

In the context of ancient culture, a female divorcee could conceivably have been a more cruel fate than being widowed, unless the hardness of heart produced quite considerable abuse.

Think about it. :)

.

 

[TLHKAJ]

In that particular case, perhaps the husband needs to be inserted into a wood-chipper. Feet first.

I appreciate the desire for justice .... in this case, I'd settle for divorce and handing them over to God.