Well, I was afraid that if I said less than three typed pages, someone would say "OK, smartass, let's see you do it!"
Does God care more for himself than he cares for us?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
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That would make an interesting topic. (hint, hint)Just reading, in the 'Concordant Literal Translation' Appendix concerning 'Figures of Speech'. Which was something I thought I knew a little about.....Oh my...how little I did understood is becoming very apparent. I am on page 4 of 15 pages on FIGURES OF SPEECH. The second paragraph of page one says "It is startling to realize that much of God's Word is not literally true." At page 4 I'm seeing just what they're saying. Interesting for sure.
/ cc: @Lambano
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
The Scriptures are a record. Jesus is the Word of God. Keeping this clear in our understanding will ease confusion.I 'THINK' there was a recent thread as to whether 'the WHOLE BOOK' was the infallible , inerrant, straight from the mouth of God, inspired, word for word...."WORD of GOD". Or something to that effect. So now does 20% really make a ripple in the water?
Agree.
But I would say...
Jesus is the Word of God made flesh.
The Logos/logic/idea/reason was God and was with God.
The Logos BECAME flesh.
Sorry, I'm nitpicking.
And... not everyone sees it the way I do.
Which is fine...
John 1:14 NRSVue
And the Word became flesh and lived among us,
and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son,[a]
full of grace and truth.
/
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
I don't have enough command of this to do anything IMO.
I will say/type this, from page 2 of the topic in the BOOK; "Of the vast importance of figure of speech in interpretation, there can be no question. In the Reformation a single metaphor, "this is My body," led to conflicts and divisions which would never have arisen if there had been even an elementary knowledge of figurative language.....When figure is recognized, the conflict vanishes."
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
You are speaking of a 'FIGURE OF SPEECH', mentioned in the book; I thought Jesus was the LIGHT of the world.
JOH 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Now I find He is just the biggest Maglight, sitting next to my 'religious geography' book.
Here's a step by step, if you want to brave the wilds of topic creation at some point.I don't have enough command of this to do anything IMO.
1) Decide what the topic should be about and collect your materials. (content)
2) Choose the appropriate forum area.
3) Click the
button in the upper right page top.
4) Fill in the topic title in the space provided. (you can edit it later if need be)
5) A list will pop up with the title: Is this already being discussed?
6) Consider whether your topic is already over-discussed.
7) Click the x in the far right of that list window to get rid of it.
8) Write your Opening Post (OP) text in post #1.
9) Hit the Post Thread button at the bottom of the page to publish.
You can enter key words and other data at the bottom if you wish.
Don't forget to cc me on the topic. - LOL
/
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
I wasn’t referring to the ‘mechanics’ of a thread, although you are right about that too. I have never started a thread on any of the Christian forums. But even the content of the subject I mentioned is a weak one for me. So please feel free to do what you are so good at with my blessing Steve.
From the OP.
The way some Christians talk about God, you would think so.
They tell us we are unacceptable to God. That it is only with great difficulty that God loves and tolerates us.
The image of a God that is disappointed with us, because we don't measure up. Shakes His head when he sees us.
An unreasonable expectation that we can never meet. Not accepted for who we are, or where we are at.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is not what I see in God. I see a loving heavenly Father.
His kids are always welcome in his lap. He's intensely interested in them.
He puts everything aside to listen to them. He glories in their presence.
Can hardly wait to see them again when they return. Delights in them.
There is a line down the center of this post,
Which side of the line are you on? Top, or bottom?
[
The way some Christians talk about God, you would think so.
They tell us we are unacceptable to God. That it is only with great difficulty that God loves and tolerates us.
The image of a God that is disappointed with us, because we don't measure up. Shakes His head when he sees us.
An unreasonable expectation that we can never meet. Not accepted for who we are, or where we are at.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is not what I see in God. I see a loving heavenly Father.
His kids are always welcome in his lap. He's intensely interested in them.
He puts everything aside to listen to them. He glories in their presence.
Can hardly wait to see them again when they return. Delights in them.
There is a line down the center of this post,
Which side of the line are you on? Top, or bottom?
[
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Both! Apart from Jesus' perfection in his life, death, and resurrection, we would be lost forever, because of God's perfect justice. It's only his grace that accepts us at all based on Jesus' as our Substitute.
Furthermore, God is both our just Judge and our ready Rescuer through Jesus by the Holy Spirit's power. He is both loving and just. Please erase your dividing line. God is both just in condemning our sinful self-centeredness and loving in receiving us as his adopted children.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Why are you so angry at Calvinists and John Calvin? I suggest that you read Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. Perhaps, someone has led you wrong in your evaluation of the subject. Maybe, it's a lot more biblical than you were told.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
So, based on this one verse, do you believe that God will save everyone, regardless of many other verses saying otherwise?
Welcome to the Forum @Bruce-Leiter and be prepared to defend for what you believe is biblically correct.
Johann.
St. SteVen said:
Yup, that is the question few want to consider.
The flip side to the predestination coin. If God elected some to life, then he elected everyone else to destruction.
At least according to mainline Christianity. There is a better view.
Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
But notice the past tense statement in this one above. Salvation for has already appeared for all people.
The acts of two men were all that was needed to secure salvation for all people. Guess who. ???
Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
[
Yup, that is the question few want to consider.
The flip side to the predestination coin. If God elected some to life, then he elected everyone else to destruction.
At least according to mainline Christianity. There is a better view.
Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
There is much more than this one verse.
But notice the past tense statement in this one above. Salvation for has already appeared for all people.
The acts of two men were all that was needed to secure salvation for all people. Guess who. ???
Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
[
He is going to make a distinction between the "all" and "the many" when there is none.
Not speaking ill of this brother.
Shalom
J.
Yes, thanks.
A common response is to point to the word "many". (= not all)
But as you noted. It doesn't say "many", it says "the many".
The many were made sinners. (the many = all)
And the many will be made righteous. (the many = all)
Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
[
Correct-
1) "But not as the offence," (all' ouch hos to paraptoma) "But not as the offence;" Every person born inherits the sin and death nature of his parents as a fruit of Adam's sin, but one does not inherit Salvation as the result of a foreparent's Salvation, Joh_1:11-12; Act_10:43; Rom_14:11-12.
2) "So also is the free gift," (houtos kai to charisma) "So also (even) the (free) gift;" The free gift of Salvation from sin is available to all without partiality, but it is not inherited, nor may it be received by works, Joh_3:16; Rom_6:23; Eph_2:8-9.
3) "For if through the offence of one," (ei gar to tou henos paraptomati) "For if by the offence of one person," by the offence of Adam, who offended God, disobeyed God, stirred the enmity and wrath of God, Rom_1:18; 1Co_15:21-22.
4) "Many be dead," (hoi polloi apethanon) "the many (Masses) died; Ecc_9:5; Rom_5:12; 1Co_15:22; 1Co_15:56. The masses of living human beings "be" or exist in a death state, Jas_1:15; 1Co_15:55-56.
5) "Much more the grace of God," (polio mallon he Charis tou theou) "By much more the grace of God;" The grace of God universally covers man's need for release from sins' consequences, but man must personally receive that grace to be saved from Spiritual death by it, Tit_2:11.
6) "And the gift by grace," (kai he dorea en Chariti) "And the gift in (by) grace;" 2Co_8:9; Eph_2:8-9; Rom_11:6.
7) "Which is by one man, Jesus Christ," (te tou henos anthropou lesou Christou) "Which (exists) of the one man, Jesus Christ;" Grace, the unmerited favor of God to Salvation, came by and in Jesus Christ, Joh_1:17; Rom_3:24.
8) "Hath abounded unto many," (eis tous pollous eperisseusen) "Abounded toward the masses;" to the many, or the masses, Tit_2:11; Eph_2:7; 2Pe_3:18.
J.
While your explanation follows the common understanding on the subject,
it loses the cause and effect structure presented in the scripture in question.
1) Two men. The first Adam and the last Adam. (whose actions effect all of humankind)
2) Just as (in the same way) one trespass = condemnation for all people. (the sin of Adam)
3) So also (in the same way) one righteous act = justification and life for all people. (the atonement of Christ)
4) [said another way]
Just as (in the same way) the disobedience of the one man = the many were made sinners (the many = all)
5) So also (in the same way) the obedience of the one man = the many will be made righteous. (the many = all)
Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
[
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