Typical questions people ask about the Olivet Discourse.

[3 Resurrections]

The apostate papacy is a clear fulfillment of both a substitute Christ, and a denied Christ.

You still refuse to admit that 1 & 2 John's given definition of what an antichrist is does not match the papacy. Show me proof that the papacy has denied that Jesus was the Messiah that came in the flesh in fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy. Show me proof that the papacy has denied the existence of both the Father and the Son. The papacy is messed up on many, many fronts, but this particular accusation is not something they can be charged with.

They simply don't fit the description for an antichrist as given by 1 and 2 John.

 

[3 Resurrections]

This is a good point, but this was Barabbas, the other two who were on either side of Jesus are identified as thieves, not insurrectionists and murderers. I'd have to say that this isn't stated in Scripture, though I understand your reason for thinking so.

Barabbas had operated in conjunction with the two thieves being held by the Romans. All of them had participated in the insurrection, with Barabbas having additionally murdered someone in that insurrection. All of them were Zealots, called "the lawless". Thievery was only one of their practices to support their cause. They preyed upon their own people as well as the Romans.

The Zealot element in Israel was well-defined as expressing "lawlessness". The "Man of Lawlessness" was also called "the son of destruction", because Menahem descended from Judas the Galilean who had also been a Zealot insurrectionist in Acts 5:37. Menahem was just following in the family footsteps of rebellion against Rome, and he would be destroyed for it in AD 66 just as his ancestors and relatives had been before then.

 

[covenantee]

You still refuse to admit that 1 & 2 John's given definition of what an antichrist is does not match the papacy. Show me proof that the papacy has denied that Jesus was the Messiah that came in the flesh in fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy. Show me proof that the papacy has denied the existence of both the Father and the Son. The papacy is messed up on many, many fronts, but this particular accusation is not something they can be charged with.

They simply don't fit the description for an antichrist as given by 1 and 2 John.

It's time for you to provide credible independent historical proof of "Menahem the Antichrist".

Name, date, source, verbatim quote; please.

 

[marks]

Barabbas had operated in conjunction with the two thieves being held by the Romans. All of them had participated in the insurrection, with Barabbas having additionally murdered someone in that insurrection. All of them were Zealots, called "the lawless". Thievery was only one of their practices to support their cause. They preyed upon their own people as well as the Romans.

I'd have to say this is an argument from silence. You are essentially saying that all of Rome's prisoners were these zealots, but the text does not tell us that.

Much love!

 

[3 Resurrections]

I'd have to say this is an argument from silence. You are essentially saying that all of Rome's prisoners were these zealots, but the text does not tell us that.

Of course not all Rome's prisoners were accused of being a Zealot. But this is not an argument from silence that I am making. I quoted Mark 15:7 which spoke of Barabbas being held along with the others guilty of insurrection along WITH HIM. Barabbas was the only one in this group said to have committed murder in that insurrection, but in spite of that, he was the only one of that group who was released. The others in league with Barabbas were crucified along with Christ. Josephus continually referred to the Zealots as "thieves" in his account of the Roman Jewish war.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Name, date, source, verbatim quote; please.

I just gave you the proof taken from Josephus Wars 2.17.8-9 of Menahem's actions which duplicated that of Paul's Man of Lawlessness in 2 Thess. 2. And I quoted the 1 & 2 John texts which give you a specific definition of what an antichrist was. The Zealot ideology in first-century Israel matches this. It matters not to me if your Google search doesn't yield the particular phrase "Menahem the Antichrist". By scripture's definition of what an antichrist is, the Zealots' mentality and beliefs matched the antichrist description exactly.

If you feel led to do battle with Catholicism, then at least do it without having to resort to invented labels such as "Antichrist". They have plenty of other corrupted teachings and a horrendous history of oppression which can be legitimately opposed. You are thinking of this Antichrist term with a 21st century mindset - not one in which Christ's generation was operating, and in which John gave his description of that single Antichrist individual that was then alive at the time.

That first-century generation was the one in which Daniel's 70-week prophecy was all fulfilled. The "false christs" in that generation were a twisted substitute for the real Messiah the Prince, Christ Jesus, who had already come in the flesh, a fact which the Zealots were then denying. The "false christs" were linked in time to Daniel's prophesied year for the coming of that Messiah - in AD 30. This puts a time limitation to the phenomena of the "false christs" which would arise, attempting to be that AD 30 fulfillment (or as close as they could get to that year so that their deception would sound plausible to their fellow Israelites).

 

[CadyandZoe]

Show where faith and obedience aren't in the Scriptures.

First let's discuss Deuteronomy 7:6

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.​

I maintain that within the context of the Olivet Discourse we derive our understanding of "the elect" from the passage above.

 

[covenantee]

First let's discuss Deuteronomy 7:6

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.​

I maintain that within the context of the Olivet Discourse we derive our understanding of "the elect" from the passage above.

No, we derive our understanding of the NT elect from the entirety of NT Scripture that identifies it.

Not from the OT.

Here it is again:

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

The Church.

 

[grafted branch]

IOW, one can't exclude that from this---till all be fulfilled. It says all things not just some things, have to be fulfilled before this generation can pass away.

In Revelation 21 the first heaven and earth were passed away, then John sees New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. If all things need to be fulfilled (meaning absolutely everything) prior to “this generation” passing away then you have heaven and earth passing away while “this generation” continues on.

When do you think “ this generation” finally passes away? When does everything get fulfilled, at the end of forever?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Sorry, I think you are inserting ideas that aren't in the scriptures.

Your haven’t post a single verse in many of your latest posts. Nothing but purely personal opinions and speculations on your part about the elect and the generation. You are very wrong on both counts.

 

[ewq1938]

The term "elect" means different things according to the context. Matthew 24 records Jesus' information concerning the disposition of the temple, the Jewish nation, and Jesus' kinsmen. The "elect" in that context refers to the Jewish people whom God chose to be his people. Deuteronomy 7:6

The elect in the OD are Christians, the ones being persecuted in the trib who are of all races of people (gentiles and Jew etc)

 

[ewq1938]

Who is persecuted in the great Tribulation? Jews or Christians?

The Olivet Discourse (Matthew):

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

False Christ's are warned about.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you". He was also speaking to his Christian disciples.


Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, ( whoso readeth, let him understand: )

"Ye" are Christians.

So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

"Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


And here is the second coming. The gathering of the elect by angels is another way to speak of the rapture and the rapture is only for Christians. Christians are the body of Christ, are the Church of Christ, and are the bride of Christ, targeted by the enemy during the Great Tribulation of Christian persecution.

Again, nothing about Jews in the religion of Judaism at all because they are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, we derive our understanding of the NT elect from the entirety of NT Scripture that identifies it.

I disagree. God's choice is based on context. The OT is talking about God's choice of a holy people. The Apostles are talking about God's choice of individuals for salvation.

Both are true. The second doesn't replace the first.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your haven’t post a single verse in many of your latest posts. Nothing but purely personal opinions and speculations on your part about the elect and the generation. You are very wrong on both counts.

According to Deuteronomy 7:4 God chose a people for himself. He did this, according to God, so that he might have a holy people for his own possession.

Covenantee claims that the OT term "Elect" refers to faithful obedient Israelites within Israel, which is not true. The OT term refers to the descendants of the Patriarchs.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The elect in the OD are Christians, the ones being persecuted in the trib who are of all races of people (gentiles and Jew etc)

I grant you that both Jews and Christians are persecuted. Nonetheless, the GT refers to Jewish persecution in the Olivet Discourse. Gentiles have nothing to do with the Temple, Jerusalem, or Israel.

 

[Davidpt]

In Revelation 21 the first heaven and earth were passed away, then John sees New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. If all things need to be fulfilled (meaning absolutely everything) prior to “this generation” passing away then you have heaven and earth passing away while “this generation” continues on.

When do you think “ this generation” finally passes away? When does everything get fulfilled, at the end of forever?

It's not clear to me what all you are saying here. Can you perhaps expand on this so that I can at least get on the same page with you? Until I'm on the same page with you first, I have no clue how to address your post in the meantime.

 

[grafted branch]

It's not clear to me what all you are saying here. Can you perhaps expand on this so that I can at least get on the same page with you? Until I'm on the same page with you first, I have no clue how to address your post in the meantime.

Luke 21:22 has the phrase “that all things written may be fulfilled”.

If it means absolutely everything written in the entire Bible, including everything in the New Testament, then there’s a problem.

If it means all things written about the times of the Gentiles or the Jews or something like that then it can work.

I thought you were saying that Luke 21:22 is referring to everything in the entire Bible getting fulfilled. Is that what you meant?

 

[Davidpt]

Luke 21:22 has the phrase “that all things written may be fulfilled”.

If it means absolutely everything written in the entire Bible, including everything in the New Testament, then there’s a problem.

If it means all things written about the times of the Gentiles or the Jews or something like that then it can work.

I thought you were saying that Luke 21:22 is referring to everything in the entire Bible getting fulfilled. Is that what you meant?

Per the Discourse it would be pertaining to everything Jesus said that gets fulfilled. Which includes numerous things, and that this generation cannot pass way until all of these things are fulfilled first.

For example.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


This desolation in question, since it appears to be meaning what eventually happened in 70 AD, can this generation pass away once that was fulfilled? Not if there are other events that are not fulfilled by the time 70 AD happened.

I already brought up the times of the Gentiles. But let's try something different here, keeping in mind that for something to have been fulfilled means that it doesn't continue to get fulfilled once it has been fulfilled. For example, 70 AD. Once that was fulfilled, does it continue to get fulfilled even after 70 AD? No. Keep that logic in mind since it is relevant for my next point.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Has what is recorded here already been fulfilled? As in, like 70 AD was fulfilled, that once it was fulfilled, it no longer continued to be fulfilled. The point being, unless Matthew 24:23-26 can only mean up until 70 AD, but not post 70 AD as well, obviously then, even this part has to be included in the 'all things' that have to be fulfilled before this generation can pass away.

Look at it like this maybe. Once Christ bodily returns in the end of this age, will what is recorded in verses 23-26 still be something that is happening on the earth? Of course not. And why? Because verses 23-26 will have been fulfilled at this point.

Clearly then, since Jesus mentioned verses 23-26 before He ever said anything about this generation not passing away, till all things are fulfilled first, it would be ludicrous to argue that this does not also include what is recorded in verse 23-26. Even if verses 23-26 are applicable to events prior to 70 AD, one can't insist this was fulfilled if these things are also applicable to post 70 AD as well.

Until verses 23-26 can no longer be fulfilled, as in something preventing it from happening any longer, in this case, the events involving Christ's return in the end of this age, it is then not fulfilled in the meantime if it is still being fulfilled. Once again, meaning like when 70 AD was fulfilled, it no longer continued to get fulfilled, that part of history was over and in the past at that point.

Obviously, once 70 AD happened, verses 23-26 were not over yet since they are still applicable post 70 AD.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled(including what is recorded in Matthew 24:23-26).

The same logic used here can also be applied in the same manner per other things Jesus said in the Discourse, that if any of those things are also applicable post 70 AD, one then can't argue and expect to be taken serious by any of us using good common sense here, that this generation already passed away 2000 years ago.

 

[Davidpt]

I grant you that both Jews and Christians are persecuted. Nonetheless, the GT refers to Jewish persecution in the Olivet Discourse. Gentiles have nothing to do with the Temple, Jerusalem, or Israel.

As far as Great Tribulation in particular, that phrase is only mentioned in the following verses.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Good luck making your interpretation of Matthew 24:21 square with that of what is recorded in Revelation 7:14. As if what is really meant in Revelation 7:14 is this---These are unbelieving Jews which came out of great tribulation during the period of time involving what eventually happened in 70 AD, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Except the idea is this, though. Scripture is supposed to interpret Scripture. Except i is impossible to interpret Scripture with Scripture in this case if one is interpreting Matthew 24:21 in such a manner that it is then making nonsense, rather than sense, out of what is recorded in Revelation 7:14.

 

[grafted branch]

Look at it like this maybe. Once Christ bodily returns in the end of this age, will what is recorded in verses 23-26 still be something that is happening on the earth? Of course not. And why? Because verses 23-26 will have been fulfilled at this point.

So you’re saying nobody will be able to say the phrase “lo, here is Christ, or there” during the millennium? Won’t people be able to say “lo, here is Christ” when they talk about Him on David’s throne in Jerusalem during the millennium, or will there be no free will for people to use those words?