Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

[Hillsage]

Bibliolatry is my pet peeve in my interaction with the evangelical community. Mine is not a popular position, but I have said that my advice to a new Christian would be to read the Bible three times and forget about it. The gospel message is not that complicated. Walking the walk does not require constant reference to the Bible. I personally do not find large portions of the Bible edifying or instructive in the slightest, and I don't know how many times I am supposed to need to read Romans to "get it."

Jack Taylor , now deceased, was considered 'a pastor to pastors' and our pastor met him at a conference, years ago, where Pastor Kent invited him to come speak at our little church in western Kansas. He did, 3 times over several years, every time a delight. A small group of us were invited to a small group session with him. In that small group he said; "I tell young believers to not even study the OT for 10 years. He says too often people read the OT and hit the NT so screwed up as to how evil God is telling the Jews to even slaughter children etc. etc. Then they often never have the 'better view' of the "Most High God" of the NT whose character/nature is represented by God's son...Jesus. God BTW at that time was not 'just the Father' IMO, and I agree with you that Jesus wasn't 'GOD the SON'.

As for your 'read it through 3 times and quit permanently', that's a new one for me. I have heard that you should consecutively read it 3 times and that there seems to be something that really clicks (spiritually?) for a person on that last reading. But, my experience was never read it straight through 1 time until a believer many years. And that 1 time was many years back. I see you are new, and welcome you, but; I am curious as to what you're doing here on a 'Christian Forum' and especially in a 'Christian Debate Forum'. Can you say, or should I just hold on to my hat? I just checked and you are hitting a lot of threads. Sure you know what you're doing here? ;) I'm 2 years older than you, and I haven't got that much time.

Actual communion, in the sense described by the anonymous medieval author of The Cloud of Unknowing, is far more important to me than reading the Bible for the umpteenth time. Bibliolatry strikes me as part of what I call pretend Christianity - things we think we are supposed to say and do because "that's what Christians do" as opposed to having any reality to them.

Curious again, just exactly what does "opposed to having any reality to them." mean?

 

[St. SteVen]

Bibliolatry is my pet peeve in my interaction with the evangelical community. Mine is not a popular position, but I have said that my advice to a new Christian would be to read the Bible three times and forget about it. The gospel message is not that complicated. Walking the walk does not require constant reference to the Bible.

Great post, thanks.
Welcome to the forum.

Yes, after three reading the Holy Spirit should be able to remind us of it.
And it seems that many Christians study the Bible to use as a weapon against other believers.
This forum is a good example of that.
They seem to believe that they are saved by their own doctrine.
And others are damned by the same.

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[O'Darby]

Jack Taylor , now deceased, was considered 'a pastor to pastors' and our pastor met him at a conference, years ago, where Pastor Kent invited him to come speak at our little church in western Kansas. He did, 3 times over several years, every time a delight. A small group of us were invited to a small group session with him. In that small group he said; "I tell young believers to not even study the OT for 10 years. He says too often people read the OT and hit the NT so screwed up as to how evil God is telling the Jews to even slaughter children etc. etc. Then they often never have the 'better view' of the "Most High God" of the NT whose character/nature is represented by God's son...Jesus. God BTW at that time was not 'just the Father' IMO, and I agree with you that Jesus wasn't 'GOD the SON'.

As for your 'read it through 3 times and quit permanently', that's a new one for me. I have heard that you should consecutively read it 3 times and that there seems to be something that really clicks (spiritually?) for a person on that last reading. But, my experience was never read it straight through 1 time until a believer many years. And that 1 time was many years back. I see you are new, and welcome you, but; I am curious as to what you're doing here on a 'Christian Forum' and especially in a 'Christian Debate Forum'. Can you say, or should I just hold on to my hat? I just checked and you are hitting a lot of threads. Sure you know what you're doing here? ;) I'm 2 years older than you, and I haven't got that much time.



Curious again, just exactly what does "opposed to having any reality to them." mean?

I'm a veteran of many, many forums of diverse types over the past 30 years. I think I've particpated on almost every Christian forum over those years and have seen a couple of them evolve in some weird directions. I wrote and edited professionally for almost 40 years before I retired, so now I participate at places such as this mostly just to stay mentally active. I hit several threads today because all I really look at is the New Posts section and then jump to anything that looks halfway interesting. I didn't even notice this was the Christian Debate Forum, but that is in fact right up my alley since I'm something of a Christian iconoclast.

By "any reality" to them, I simply meant practices and exercises that many Christians seem to go through just because they believe it's expected. Do people actually read the Bible every day and get something from it? Do they get anything from their 163rd reading of Genesis? Maybe some do, but I just reached the point of feeling I was just going through the motions.

I, of course, didn't follow my own advice to read the Bible three times and forget about it. I'd been a Christian for many years before I realized how prevalent Bibiolatry is and how much damage (IMO) it does.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Do people actually read the Bible every day and get something from it?

Precious friend, for 44 years I have read it through once an year, and since it is An
Inexhaustible Mine Of Precious Gems, I believe I do get something from digging in it,
especially the last couple of years, reading two of my four daily chapters backwards.

Amen.

 

[O'Darby]

Precious friend, for 44 years I have read it through once an year, and since it is An
Inexhaustible Mine Of Precious Gems, I believe I do get something from digging in it,
especially the last couple of years, reading two of my four daily chapters backwards.

Amen.

Cool! What does reading them backwards mean? Maybe that's the key! :)

 

[Wynona]

I have encountered some that I thought had fallen into this trap.

I asked them, "What would become of your faith if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day?"
The guilty are left mostly speechless. Or, alternatively VERY angry. How come?

To be clear, I love the Bible and use it every day. But I know the difference between the book and the author.
In my experience, my relationship with the author is much more important than my relationship with the book.
Appropriate scriptures come to my mind all day long. Due to the work of the Spirit to quicken these things to my memory.

The Bible is not omniscient. (all knowing)
The Bible is not omnipresent. (everywhere present)
The Bible is not omnipotent. (all powerful)

The Bible does NOT love me.
It's paper and ink, maybe a leather cover. (or digital info)
That cow didn't die to pay my sin debt.

A true Bibliolator will demand chapter and verse to support my premise. - LOL

The bottom line:
Let's use the Bible to grow closer to God and each other, rather than as a weapon to destroy each other.

John 13:35 NIV
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Revelation 13:19 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


The Lord and His Word aren't separate. If you revere and honor the Word, you are honoring Jesus.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Cool! What does reading them backwards mean? Maybe that's the key! :)

On January 1, the schedule looks like:

Forwards Gen 1:1, and Psa 118:1-15 [middle], and then backwards Psa 118:29-15, and Rev 22;21​

Day 2: ............ Gen 2:1 .......... Psa 119:1 ......................................................... Psa 117:2 ......................... Rev 21:27
and so forth and so on until about mid Dec.

I think it's great that most people "can get it" with just 3 readings, but it usually takes
me at least 10! [ triple S-l-o-w? ], So:

At my old age, I think this backwards reading keeps my brain stimulated, reading the last first,
and then trying to think ahead of what I previously read forwards, and The Spirit Giving me one
of those "Aha moments" = "NOW I remember!" Along with other Precious Gems I've Never
"dug up" before!! Did I mention Inexhaustible? ;)

Cool "key for me", eh?

Thanks for asking....

Be Blessed.

 

[St. SteVen]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Revelation 13:19 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


The Lord and His Word aren't separate. If you revere and honor the Word, you are honoring Jesus.

Are you claiming that Jesus is the Bible?

In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God? ??? (Bibliolatry)

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called the Bible ? ???

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[Rella ~ I am a woman]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Revelation 13:19 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


The Lord and His Word aren't separate. If you revere and honor the Word, you are honoring Jesus.

Yes, but the Word is not the written Holy Bible. The Word is Christ Jesus and unless you are so new to the Christian religion that you basically do not even know what the 10 commandments say, or the fact that the veil tore at the temple when Christ was crucified and need that as part of your growth because they no longer permit the 10 commandments on display in schools even and I absolutely do not recall of any "Easter" services where the crucifixion is talked about there ever being a mention of the veil

That kind of thing, then it is imperative to get your basics... and I say... reading as often as needed until you know what is in the book, even if you cannot cite specific chapter and verse.

The title of this thread....

Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author​

This is pertaining to a book. The Holy Bible.

I use the 4 corners of the Holy Bible.... generally with multiple translations... Interlinears and Peshitta and Septuagin lxx as explanation of my points.

Do I need the Holy Bible to say what I want to say.... not exactly.... but there always enters those who
need proof .... or who twist what they think they remember to make no sense at all.

Why do I go to so many sources. Because even the very translators of the original texts down through the ages
kept needing... so they thought... to reword some verses that would carry a slightly differing thought or meaning....

1 example.... DO NOT start a debate on this.... it has over kill elsewhere here.

Matt 1:25
King James Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
New American Standard Bible
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he named Him Jesus.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
but did not know her intimately until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus.
Good News Translation
But he had no sexual relations with her before she gave birth to her son. And Joseph named him Jesus.
Weymouth New Testament
but did not live with her until she had given birth to a son. The child's name he called JESUS.
If you look for a definition....

A mere handful of the legions of translations on the subject.

OR

example #2...
How many people do you know that do not know the meaning of household?

No, I wont post the 4 or 5 biblical examples... you ALL know them.... yet deny that anyone under the age of understanding lived with these people... Such weird households... unless they were selected because of the age factor by God. Perhaps Paul was put in jail and under the jailor of the night because it was predetermined who would be sitting at the desk????? Just sayin....

bibliolatry /bĭb″lē-ŏl′ə-trē/

noun​

1. Excessive adherence to a literal interpretation of the Bible.
2. Extreme devotion to or concern with books.
3. Book worship, esp. of the Bible; -- applied by Roman Catholic divines to the exaltation of the authority of the Bible over that of the pope or the church, and by Protestants to an excessive regard to the letter of the Scriptures.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • More at Wordnik

So... I would say we ALL are guilty to one extent or the other. Not of book worshipping, but what we have understood from the book as applicable to our lives and faith... and will use those verses to shore up our beliefs.

 

[Spyder]

Bibliology is Dangerous

The problem with Bibliology is that the questions it asks are loaded questions. There is an agenda behind the theology.

redeeminggod.com

Compare his statements to what you see occurring here.

 

[St. SteVen]

I use the 4 corners of the Holy Bible.... generally with multiple translations... Interlinears and Peshitta and Septuagin lxx as explanation of my points.

Very interesting. Thanks.
I had not heard of Peshitta before. Very interesting. An Aramaic New Testament?
Do you have a recommended online source? (worth a topic?)

/

 

[St. SteVen]

So... I would say we ALL are guilty to one extent or the other. Not of book worshipping, but what we have understood from the book as applicable to our lives and faith... and will use those verses to shore up our beliefs.

That's a good summary.
This topic is intended to be cautionary, not accusatory.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Bibliology is Dangerous

The problem with Bibliology is that the questions it asks are loaded questions. There is an agenda behind the theology.

redeeminggod.com

Compare his statements to what you see occurring here.

Wow!
That's a great article.
Might be worth a topic? (your turn) - LOL

I read down to the bullet points on Bibliology.

• Toward a New View on Biblical Inerrancy
• Bibliology is Dangerous
• Hearing from God
• Dueling Revelations
• Scripture vs. Science - Who Wins?
• Revelation is like a Bouquet of Roses
• Seminary Class Notes on Revelation
• Seminary Class Notes on Special Revelation
• How You Can Know the Bible is Divine Revelation

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[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Very interesting. Thanks.
I had not heard of Peshitta before. Very interesting. An Aramaic New Testament?
Do you have a recommended online source? (worth a topic?)

/

Kind of and Possibly

It also has old in it

I had a great Peshitta online source that was on a laptop that went belly up, literally.

I had to get a new one and the harddrive was DOA when they tried to transfer it.

Now, I have bits and pieces that when I find I book mark for ease. Some from Bible Hub

But the irony is that there are differing translations:

Example :

The Holy Peshitta Bible Translated ("God Is Love" Edition)

This is the complete Bible translated entirely from the Aramaic text of the 1st century Peshitta Bible. Aramaic was the native tongue of Jesus, the Jewish people and the Middle East in the 1st century. The Peshitta New Testament is the original inspired writing of The Spirit of Holiness in the...

books.google.com

The Holy Peshitta Bible Translated ("God Is Love" Edition)​

By Rev. David Bauscher

Starts off with....

Gen 1:1 In the beginning LOVE created the Heavens and the Earth. (ummmm... well, he is/was a minister... certain his flock hung on his every word)

SOOOOOOOOOO

I lock onto something from a Bible Hub Translation and go with it and then slowly make my way through to book, chapter and verse I want to compare.

Example: Mathew 28...https://biblehub.com/hpbt/matthew/28.htm

1But on the eve of the Sabbath, when the first of the week was dawning, Maryam Magdalitha and the other Maryam came to see the tomb. 2And behold there was a great earthquake, for The Angel of THE LORD JEHOVAH descended from Heaven, and he came, he rolled the stone from the entrance and sat upon it. 3And his appearance was like lightning and his clothing was white as snow. 4And from dread of him, those who were keeping watch were shaken, and they became like dead men. 5But the Angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are seeking Yeshua, who was crucified.” 6“He is not here, for he is raised just as he said; come see the place in which our Lord was laid.” 7“And go quickly; say to his disciples that he has risen from the grave, and behold, he goes before you to Galilee; there you will see him; behold I have told you.”

AND my favorite read in the Peshitta is Mathew 1, vs 18-25 esp. vs 25

Matthew 1 Peshitta Holy Bible Translated

18The birth of Yeshua The Messiah was thus: when Maryam his mother was engaged to Yoseph before they would have a conjugal relation she was found pregnant from The Spirit of Holiness. 19But Yoseph her lord was righteous and did not want to expose her, and he was considering divorcing her secretly. 20But as he considered these things, The Angel of THE LORD JEHOVAH appeared to him in a dream and said unto him, “Yoseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Maryam your woman, for he who is begotten in her is from The Spirit of Holiness.” 21“And she shall bring forth a Son, and she shall call his name Yeshua, for he shall save his people from their sins.” 22Now all this happened, that the thing which was spoken from THE LORD JEHOVAH by the Prophet would be fulfilled: 23“Behold the virgin shall conceive, and she shall bear a son, and they shall call his Name Emmanuail, which is translated, 'Our God is with us'“. 24And when Yoseph arose from his sleep, he did according to that which The Angel of THE LORD JEHOVAH had commanded him, and he took his wife. 25And he did not know her sexually until she delivered her firstborn son, and she called his name Yeshua.

If I am successful in finding the entire thing for easy reference... even an interlinear version, I will post it.

But in the meantime... have some fun... cause it truly is interesting.

 

[O'Darby]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Revelation 13:19 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


The Lord and His Word aren't separate. If you revere and honor the Word, you are honoring Jesus.

This seems to conflate the Bible as the Word of God with Jesus as the Logos. John is talking about Jesus as the Logos - both a Greek concept and to some extent an OT one (Sophia being the OT personfication of God's Wisdom). When John says the Word became flesh, he is talking about God's Logos (in Trinitarian terms, the Second Person of the Trinity). So I think you're mixing apples and oranges.

 

[O'Darby]

Bibliology is Dangerous

The problem with Bibliology is that the questions it asks are loaded questions. There is an agenda behind the theology.

redeeminggod.com

Compare his statements to what you see occurring here.

Perhaps slightly off-topic, but it seems to me that the Eastern Orthodox make a valid point. They maintain that their church has kept a consistent interpretation of the Bible since apostolic times and that all theology is measured against what the earliest Christians believed - and from my reading of Eastern Orthodox theology this is pretty much true. They say that the Reformation, while theoretically being about sola scriptura, actually opened the door to hundreds or thousands of Protestant battles of "my interpretation of Scripture" versus "your interpretation of Scripture." Sola scriptura ends up being pretty much the antithesis of sola scriptura!

I suppose that to some extent Bibliolatry is in the eye of the beholder. I conceive of it mostly in terms of a wooden, one-dimensional view of the Bible as being not only inerrant in some wooden, one-dimensional sense but also as being some sort of historical and scientific treatise that no archaeology or science can be allowed to challenge or contradict. It is a worship of the Bible - or, more accurately, "my interpretation of the Bible" - as though the book itself were a Fourth Person of the Trinity or something like that. One can certainly have a high regard for the Bible without descending into Bibliolatry.

 

[amigo de christo]

Are you claiming that Jesus is the Bible?

In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God? ??? (Bibliolatry)

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called the Bible ? ???

/

No He is NOT the bible . BUT HE DID INSPIRED THEM WORDS of LOVELY TRUTH .
IF a man says He loves GOD and yet denies JESUS , does that man really love GOD . NOPE .
if a man claims HE loves JESUS and yet loves not , does not HIS sayings , DOES that man really love CHRIST . NOPE .
IF a man says He loves GOD , CHRIST and yet loves NOT TRUTH , does HE love GOD , CHRIST WHO IS TRUTH . NOPE
IF a man says HE has the love of GOD and yet his love rejoices not in TRUTH
but rather in some inquity , THAT MAN HAS NOT CHARITY
SEE the problem yet .
MANY are lipping the name o GOD of CHRIST and yet they sur dont seem to be liking
that which THE HOLY SPIRIT inspired , THE SCRIPTURES very much .
Can a man be decieved into following another jesus , another god, OH YES .
can satan and his ministirs appear as men of righteousness , come within christendom
be teachingand instructing many, oH YES and marvel not eithier . THIS GENERATION is in dire trouble .
TIME we BIBLE UP and learn for ourselves by the power of the SPIRIT .

 

[St. SteVen]

Example: Mathew 28...https://biblehub.com/hpbt/matthew/28.htm

Great post. Very informative, thanks!
I followed your link to Biblehub to see where the Peshitta was in the list of translations there.

Matthew 28 Peshitta Holy Bible Translated

One of the translation choices (the blue bar near the top) is abbreviated ARA = Aramaic Bible translated.
Aha! Perfect. Got it. :)

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Great post, thanks.
I'm less concerned about going off topic than I am about squelching great dialog. (within reason)

Perhaps slightly off-topic, but it seems to me that the Eastern Orthodox make a valid point. They maintain that their church has kept a consistent interpretation of the Bible since apostolic times and that all theology is measured against what the earliest Christians believed - and from my reading of Eastern Orthodox theology this is pretty much true. They say that the Reformation, while theoretically being about sola scriptura, actually opened the door to hundreds or thousands of Protestant battles of "my interpretation of Scripture" versus "your interpretation of Scripture." Sola scriptura ends up being pretty much the antithesis of sola scriptura!

I think there is something to that. The Greek speaking church of the east (Orthodox)
had/has a definite advantage over the western Latin speaking Church.

They were still living in the land of the birth of Christianity and
spoke the language of the New Testament writings.

I suppose that to some extent Bibliolatry is in the eye of the beholder. I conceive of it mostly in terms of a wooden, one-dimensional view of the Bible as being not only inerrant in some wooden, one-dimensional sense but also as being some sort of historical and scientific treatise that no archaeology or science can be allowed to challenge or contradict. It is a worship of the Bible - or, more accurately, "my interpretation of the Bible" - as though the book itself were a Fourth Person of the Trinity or something like that. One can certainly have a high regard for the Bible without descending into Bibliolatry.

Well said. You clearly understand where I am coming from on this topic. Thanks.

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[St. SteVen]

New forum topic.

The Peshitta - the Aramaic Bible translation

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