Irrefutable biblical proof that death is not abolished at the second coming

[Zao is life]

Once Again, It's Not Changing

A plain fact that (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory) at the Lord's return

The complete chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 is dedicated to the second coming and resurrection, at this time the (Last Enemy Death) is destroyed (The End)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

When Jesus Christ returns as seen in verse 23 above, the resurrection takes place, in verse 52 below it gives a "Detailed" description of how long this takes place (In The Twinkling Of An Eye) in verse 54 below in "Detail" it shows the (Last Enemy Death) is destroyed (The End)

When Jesus returns the resurrection takes place in the twinkling of an eye, when the last enemy death is destroyed (The End) its that simple, why do you resist the simple words of God's truth before your eyes?

1 Corinthians 15:51-54KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Why will anyone be resurrected? What's the purpose?

Does it have anything to do with God's purpose when He created the heavens and the earth?

 

[Truth7t7]

Why will anyone be resurrected? What's the purpose?

Does it have anything to do with God's purpose when He created the heavens and the earth?

The future glorified bodily resurrection of the saved believers is a foundational doctrine in the Christian faith, read 1 Corinthians chapter 15 and perhaps you can figure it out

 

[Randy Kluth]

That is the problem, that bodies are glorified.

The soul puts on both a physical body and a spirit. The new physical body put on is incorruptible without sin.

The soul doesn't "put on" a spirit. It *is* a spirit. When a human spirit is joined to a body, that spirit becomes a "soul." That soul is a human spirit indwelling a human body. One day that soul will put off the mortal human body and put on a brand new immortal body. The Bible calls this "glorification." It is *not* a problem. It's what the Bible says.

You may be confusing "putting on the Spirit" with defining a "soul" or a "human spirit?" Your terms and definitions are so confusing it's difficult to respond.

Adam changed bodies the instant he disobeyed God.

Adam did not "change bodies" when he sinned. The same body continued, but was infected with sin. The same body was contaminated by sin.

The result was a decaying body, an infection, if you will. DNA began to break down, beginning the aging process which we now know as a gradual movement towards death.

Adam lost his spirit that was the image of God and was now naked in the image of death.

No, Adam still has the body and the spirit that was made in the image of God. But Man's ability to cooperate with God's Word has marred that image.

The Biblical definition of immortality is putting on the spirit and becoming a complete son of God: soul, body, and spirit.

Nowhere in the Bible is "immortality" defined as "putting on the Spirit. 1st we're talking about Man's constituent parts, and now you seem to be talking about putting on God's Spirit. You seem to confuse our human spirit with God's Spirit in this discussion?

We may choose to walk in the Spirit, and "put on Christ's righteousness," but this is not necessarily "immortality." According to the Bible, Eternal Life begins with a true conversion and regeneration because at that point we already have our legal Salvation, even though our bodies have not yet been redeemed from death. We become "immortal" when the new glorified body is received. Our redemption is completed at our physical redemption.

You call the spirit a body. The spirit is not a body but a spiritual covering over the body.

Where did I call the spirit a "body?" The body and the human spirit are distinct and separate components of a human being. When a human spirit joins the human body, a human soul is created. The soul can lose the body without being annihilated, but it was designed to be encased in a body. And even though all experience physical death due to sin, all will be resurrected in new bodies that will be unable to manifest sin in acts of injustice and lawlessness.

Paul is saying that the corruptible body is removed and the incorruptible body is put on like a change of clothes. You don't have a spirit to take off, because being mortal is being spiritually dead. Putting on the spirit over the physical body is putting on life.

Again, you seem to confuse the human spirit with the Holy Spirit. Are we talking about Man's constituent parts, body, soul, and spirit, or are we talking about putting on the Spirit of Christ? Please be clear about it!

Being glorified is the entire process, not just putting on a "glorified body". A "glorified body" is your definition of putting on immortality.

Yes, it is. And I have biblical evidence for stating this. Where is your evidence for stating that our "glorification" is a different thing, a "complete process?" Obviously, glorification requires a renewing of the whole person, body, soul, and spirit. But when Paul speaks of our hope for glorification, most often he is speaking of our hope in the resurrection to immortality. Since you have no proof otherwise, I cannot accept your claim that I'm wrong. But I'm open....

The sheep (Israel) and wheat (all the Gentile nations) of the final harvest are not glorified. They only exchange physical bodies. They are the first generation tasked to be fruitful, multiply, and subdue the earth. This will be under the iron rod rule of Jesus as King over every nation per the 7th Trumpet.

This sounds like pure fantasy, the product of your imagination? Where are these distinctions being made in the Scriptures--not just in your own thinking?

The church on earth, currently, still live in the body of death right now. The term church or Christian will not apply during the Millennium. No one will have on a corruptible sin nature physical body.

Where do you get this from? A future Millennium is a speculative subject because it isn't where we're at today. So why even guess whether the word "church" will be used?

Theology has taken 1 Corinthians 15 and wrongly claimed there is a single physical resurrection for those in Christ. The physical resurrection into a new permanent body for the OT redeemed happened at the Cross. As the firstfruits, they already have a physical body in Paradise.

Christ was resurrected after the cross--not OT saints! They have not yet obtained their glorified bodies. Nobody but Christ has! Where is your evidence otherwise?

Being glorified at the Second Coming is putting on the spirit for them. But they have not been procreating in Paradise because Paradise continued to fill with new arrivals daily since the Cross. Once a church ambassador has finished their earthly task, they return home into God's permanent incorruptible physical body. At the Second Coming, Jesus brings them with Him to meet those rising from the earth in new bodies and the entire church body is given a white robe, the spirit to put on, as symbolized in the 5th Seal. The Second Coming is not just about redeeming Israel and destroying the wicked instantly. The 5th and 6th Seals are the only time the Second Coming is mentioned in Revelation. Jesus and the angels carry out the final harvest after the church is glorified and told to wait until the rest of the redeemed are gathered out of their bodies of death.

You may deny explicitly using Greek mythology. However you still use Theology of pagan Greek philosophers converted to Christianity. And Paul as a Jew still had to use Greek words with their Greek associations. We can interpret Paul with what Jesus taught as recorded in the Gospels.

Your beliefs sound very much like Greek mythology. Why don't you base your claims on Scriptural statements, rather than by inventing your own scenarios about them?

 

[ewq1938]

Not correct.
Rev 20:3-6 clearly states whose souls Jesus will bring with Him and resurrect.
The rest of the dead must wait for the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.
1 Thess 4:16 does NOT say 'all' the dead in Christ.

Doesn't need to. It says the dead in Christ will rise first. There are more dead in Christ than just those killed in the trib.

 

[ewq1938]

The result was a decaying body, an infection, if you will. DNA began to break down, beginning the aging process which we now know as a gradual movement towards death.

No, the death he experienced was immediate, not over a long period according to Hebrew grammar related to the infinitive absolute verb pairing in Gen 2:17.

Simplified version:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When the Hebrew uses this same verb twice in a row one of the words will be spelled slightly different. One will be the infinitive absolute verb and the other is called the conjugated/inflected verb.

They can mean two different things but not both at the same time:

1. "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process because the verb means death. "dying thou shalt die".

OR

2. "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" re-enforcing the fact that he would definitely/surely die the literal day he sinned.

It all depends on if the infinitive absolute verb is first and the conjugated/inflected verb is last, or vice versa.

In the manuscripts the infinitive absolute verb is first and the conjugated/inflected verb is last so the meaning of the verb is "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" and NOT "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process.

In order for the verb to mean "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process it would have to have been the conjugated/inflected verb first and the infinitive absolute verb last but that is not how it appears in the manuscripts. Number 2 is the way the verb paring appears in Gen 2:17.



When it comes second as here: "t'muth muth" then it can only mean "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process because the verb means death.

When the infinitive absolute verb comes first as it does here: "muth t'muth" it can only mean "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" and that is the order of the verb pairing in Gen 2:17.


I should explain what I mean by, "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" because I am aware the conjugated/inflected verb is in the imperfect which means an uncompleted action. God spoke these words before Adam sinned which is why the death is not a completed action yet when God spoke those words but the use of the infinitive absolute verb pairing supports the fact that Adam would indeed die the day he sinned as opposed to an incomplete death ie: begin to die. God said he would die the day he sinned and he definitely did. God simply never explained what type of death it would be.

 

[Keraz]

Doesn't need to. It says the dead in Christ will rise first. There are more dead in Christ than just those killed in the trib.

So then, you are happy to make a Biblical contradiction. You make 1 Thess 4:16 mean every dead Christian person, but Revelation 20:4 specifically says the only the GT martyrs will be raised when Jesus Returns.

The false idea of every dead Christian person being raised when Jesus Returns, is refuted by Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead await the GWT Judgment.....
Which is logical, as only those who get killed for refusing to take the mark of the beast, have qualified for resurrection at the Return.

I realize that it is Church doctrine that dead Christians get raised when Jesus Returns, but a doctrine that is unsupported and contradicted by plain Words of scripture, is a false doctrine.
What is even worse and a gross error, is the idea of living Christians being raptured to heaven. This Satanic lie has been accepted by millions, to their ultimate chagrin and loss. That belief has led to much complacency and carelessness. They will be shocked and terrified when they remain on earth as disaster strikes around the world. Zephaniah 3:8

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, the death he experienced was immediate, not over a long period according to Hebrew grammar related to the infinitive absolute verb pairing in Gen 2:17.

Simplified version:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When the Hebrew uses this same verb twice in a row one of the words will be spelled slightly different. One will be the infinitive absolute verb and the other is called the conjugated/inflected verb.

They can mean two different things but not both at the same time:

1. "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process because the verb means death. "dying thou shalt die".

OR

2. "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" re-enforcing the fact that he would definitely/surely die the literal day he sinned.

It all depends on if the infinitive absolute verb is first and the conjugated/inflected verb is last, or vice versa.

In the manuscripts the infinitive absolute verb is first and the conjugated/inflected verb is last so the meaning of the verb is "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" and NOT "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process.

In order for the verb to mean "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process it would have to have been the conjugated/inflected verb first and the infinitive absolute verb last but that is not how it appears in the manuscripts. Number 2 is the way the verb paring appears in Gen 2:17.



When it comes second as here: "t'muth muth" then it can only mean "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process because the verb means death.

When the infinitive absolute verb comes first as it does here: "muth t'muth" it can only mean "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" and that is the order of the verb pairing in Gen 2:17.


I should explain what I mean by, "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" because I am aware the conjugated/inflected verb is in the imperfect which means an uncompleted action. God spoke these words before Adam sinned which is why the death is not a completed action yet when God spoke those words but the use of the infinitive absolute verb pairing supports the fact that Adam would indeed die the day he sinned as opposed to an incomplete death ie: begin to die. God said he would die the day he sinned and he definitely did. God simply never explained what type of death it would be.

The problem I have with that is, the context for this instant death spans the entirety of our lives. In the day, in which we live out our lives, we will die...instantly. That is, when it comes our time, we will immediately die.

I did not mean to suggest that the pronouncement of death was a declaration that death would be perenially long, gradual, and a matter of aging over a person's lifetime. That is just the reality we face since death has entered into our bodies.

The passage is indeed talking about instant death, but not saying what will precede it, nor when, in the course of a lifetime it will hit us. When it does hit us, it will be immediate. Once our brain is dead, we're gone.

 

[Timtofly]

The soul doesn't "put on" a spirit. It *is* a spirit. When a human spirit is joined to a body, that spirit becomes a "soul." That soul is a human spirit indwelling a human body. One day that soul will put off the mortal human body and put on a brand new immortal body. The Bible calls this "glorification." It is *not* a problem. It's what the Bible says.

You may be confusing "putting on the Spirit" with defining a "soul" or a "human spirit?" Your terms and definitions are so confusing it's difficult to respond.

Adam did not "change bodies" when he sinned. The same body continued, but was infected with sin. The same body was contaminated by sin.

The result was a decaying body, an infection, if you will. DNA began to break down, beginning the aging process which we now know as a gradual movement towards death.

No, Adam still has the body and the spirit that was made in the image of God. But Man's ability to cooperate with God's Word has marred that image.

Nowhere in the Bible is "immortality" defined as "putting on the Spirit. 1st we're talking about Man's constituent parts, and now you seem to be talking about putting on God's Spirit. You seem to confuse our human spirit with God's Spirit in this discussion?

We may choose to walk in the Spirit, and "put on Christ's righteousness," but this is not necessarily "immortality." According to the Bible, Eternal Life begins with a true conversion and regeneration because at that point we already have our legal Salvation, even though our bodies have not yet been redeemed from death. We become "immortal" when the new glorified body is received. Our redemption is completed at our physical redemption.

Where did I call the spirit a "body?" The body and the human spirit are distinct and separate components of a human being. When a human spirit joins the human body, a human soul is created. The soul can lose the body without being annihilated, but it was designed to be encased in a body. And even though all experience physical death due to sin, all will be resurrected in new bodies that will be unable to manifest sin in acts of injustice and lawlessness.

Again, you seem to confuse the human spirit with the Holy Spirit. Are we talking about Man's constituent parts, body, soul, and spirit, or are we talking about putting on the Spirit of Christ? Please be clear about it!

Yes, it is. And I have biblical evidence for stating this. Where is your evidence for stating that our "glorification" is a different thing, a "complete process?" Obviously, glorification requires a renewing of the whole person, body, soul, and spirit. But when Paul speaks of our hope for glorification, most often he is speaking of our hope in the resurrection to immortality. Since you have no proof otherwise, I cannot accept your claim that I'm wrong. But I'm open....

This sounds like pure fantasy, the product of your imagination? Where are these distinctions being made in the Scriptures--not just in your own thinking?

Where do you get this from? A future Millennium is a speculative subject because it isn't where we're at today. So why even guess whether the word "church" will be used?

Christ was resurrected after the cross--not OT saints! They have not yet obtained their glorified bodies. Nobody but Christ has! Where is your evidence otherwise?

Your beliefs sound very much like Greek mythology. Why don't you base your claims on Scriptural statements, rather than by inventing your own scenarios about them?

The mythology you post about is that you are not a soul. You claim you are a spirit inside a body and together they create a soul. That is not found anywhere in Scripture.


A son of God became a living soul because of God's Holy Spirit. But your spirit is not even mentioned in those verses.

The air you breath into your lungs is not your spirit.

Adam did change bodies, because that change is reversed per 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Two bodies. Paul does not say one body morphs into the new body. That is your Greek mythology talking again.

Adam lost that permanent incorruptible physical body we have from God. And was given the temporal corruptible physical body we currently possess.

Genesis 5 even states Seth was born in Adam's dead corruptible image. Not in God's image that is permanent and incorruptible.

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:"

Yes we are still in the same likeness soul and body, but the body was swapped out. Adam had life and was given death. We have death and will be given life.

We are spiritually dead, lacking our own spirit and have been given the Holy Spirit as a substitute until the Second Coming.

You keep mixing up air with the robe of white given in the 5th Seal, which is John's symbolism of our own spirit. And it is put on over the body. Jesus showed Peter, James and John what that spirit entailed on the mount of Transfiguration. Jesus did not show them the air in His lungs. He started to shine like the sun. Putting on the spirit will be what makes the righteous shine like the stars.

The spirit was never explicitly defined in Scripture because that is still part of the mystery of becoming sons of God. 1 John 3:2

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

We are sons of God, but we don't appear having on our spirit as no one can see it around us, because it cannot go on over this body of death. At the Second Coming we shall appear with our spirit on, because that is when we put on the robe of white. We will appear like Jesus did on the mount of Transfiguration, and the entire world will see Jesus as He is, and every member of the church as they should be in their robe of white.

It is all there in the Bible if one bothered to study Scripture instead of human theology.

Sin and this body of death does stop at the Second Coming. Neither can be found in the Millennium. The only thing left of this current life is death. The first time a soul disobeys, that soul will be removed from life snd placed in death. That is why this body of death and sin cannot enter the Millennium. It would not last one second. The first thought would be a direct violation of the law. Because sin is an enemy of God, and the Law.

No one is going to slip past God and allow sin to enter back into creation. Especially not like Adam did. Even at the end, sin does not return. Those deceived by Satan are consumed by fire before they can act on their determined thoughts planted in their minds by Satan. If they were already sinners, they would already be dead, nor could Satan decieve them. Satan will deceive perfect law abiding citizens, just like he deceived Eve, who was a perfect law abiding citizen of the Garden of Eden.

 

[ewq1938]

So then, you are happy to make a Biblical contradiction. You make 1 Thess 4:16 mean every dead Christian person, but Revelation 20:4 specifically says the only the GT martyrs will be raised when Jesus Returns.

It doesn't say that. It never in any sense says or implies the beheaded are the only ones to resurrect. That is your own personal misinterpretation.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"


Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

First group resurrection: "the just"
Second group resurrection: the "unjust"

Take note that in every passage where the resurrection of the saved and unsaved are mentioned that the saved or just is always mentioned first. That's important because it is they that resurrect first! Scripture never deviates in this order. Revelation, John, Daniel and Acts all say the saved first, then the unsaved in that exact order.


Luk 14:12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
Luk 14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

He did not say the resurrection of the just and unjust. He said only the just. Again, this is evidence of two separate resurrections. The resurrection of the just is only of the just, no one else.

What we learn from these verses is that there are two resurrections. One resurrection is to life and the other resurrection is to damnation and contempt. Two resurrections! Never is there a single resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous at the same time.

 

[ewq1938]

The problem I have with that is, the context for this instant death spans the entirety of our lives. In the day, in which we live out our lives, we will die...instantly. That is, when it comes our time, we will immediately die.

You are confusing death of a mortal being with the instantaneous spiritual death Adam experienced.

The Hebrew specifically forbids the concept that Adam died a long slow death as result of his first sin.

 

[Keraz]

It doesn't say that. It never in any sense says or implies the beheaded are the only ones to resurrect

Revelation 20:4-5 does say the beheaded are the only ones resurrected and the rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over. You are wrong, plain and simple!

First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"

Acts 24:13 and John 5:29 are prophecies about the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Proved by John 5:28.....all those in their graves shall hear His voice and come out. Paralleled by Revelation 20:13

Never is there a single resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous at the same time.

A false statement and an obvious error. ALL will stand before God on His Great White Throne and be Judged.

 

[Zao is life]

The future glorified bodily resurrection of the saved believers is a foundational doctrine in the Christian faith, read 1 Corinthians chapter 15 and perhaps you can figure it out

You never answered the second question. Why not?

 

[Randy Kluth]

The mythology you post about is that you are not a soul.

This is an abuse of the word "mythology." We apparently use different definitions of the word "soul." This is not a "myth."

Furthermore, it is a falsehood. I never said I am not a soul. If I did you could quote me on this and prove it. But you can't. So you just twist my words and make up what you "conclude" that I mean.

You claim you are a spirit inside a body and together they create a soul. That is not found anywhere in Scripture.

I didn't say this either. Again, you just make up things, or are unable to read things properly. I said the joining of a human spirit with a human body creates a "soul," which I've said is a *spirit.* The soul is a spirit encased in a body, but a spirit that can live without a body, as well.

This is said directly in the Creation account. Saying it is not found in Scripture is a failure on your part to see that my statement is based on the Creation account.

The air you breath into your lungs is not your spirit.

I never said "air" is my "spirit." God breathed "life" into a human body, giving it life. (God was not rendering First Aid to someone not breathing!)

He did not put His own Spirit into the man, or he would be Jesus. Since our life was given a spiritual source, namely God, we are spiritual creatures. But we are not God.

God did not breath "air" into Man. He breathed a *spirit* into the man. That made him a soul, the fact that he was made to be a spiritual entity, and was designed to dwell inside a human body.

Adam did change bodies, because that change is reversed per 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Paul is speaking, in 2 Cor 5.1 about our Hope--not about anything we presently have other than "hope." Christ reserves the "documents" guaranteeing our legal right to resurrection. Since Christ is presently in heaven, that is where our Hope is presently focused. This is not something we have yet.

That is your Greek mythology talking again.

If you can't argue without insult, you have a low threshold of pain. Do you have to inflict others with what you perceive to be affliction from them?

I'm not insulting you--I'm disagreeing with you. That's how we learn, through a measure of conflict. It isn't a bad thing, when tempered by Christian love.

We are spiritually dead, lacking our own spirit and have been given the Holy Spirit as a substitute until the Second Coming.

"Spiritual Death" is a term used to express a spiritual condition, and certainly does not mean we are completely separate from God as mortal human beings. But Spiritual Life can indeed be restored to us in the form of a continuous relationship with God if we meet the conditions set forth by God's Word.

This covenant relationship in the NT is called being "Reborn" or being "Regenerated." We are then called "sons of God."

I don't quite agree with your language, swapping spiritual death for the Holy Spirit. But there is certainly some truth in it.

We are sons of God, but we don't appear having on our spirit as no one can see it around us, because it cannot go on over this body of death.

We are already sons of God when we are regenerated. And so, we already are wearing our "robe of righteousness," We are immediately able to "put on Christ" the moment we are converted to Christ. It is a free gift, both the right to Eternal Life and the right to live in his Righteousness.

At the Second Coming we shall appear with our spirit on, because that is when we put on the robe of white. We will appear like Jesus did on the mount of Transfiguration, and the entire world will see Jesus as He is, and every member of the church as they should be in their robe of white.

When we put on our immortal bodies we will indeed improve our appearance! ;)

The first time a soul disobeys, that soul will be removed from life snd placed in death. That is why this body of death and sin cannot enter the Millennium. It would not last one second.

You are assuming that the Millennium is less tolerant of fallen mankind than the present era is. While it's true that the Millennium will be an improvement in society, it does not preclude there being sin in mankind.

Satan is bound--not sinful mankind. Mankind is ruled, but that doesn't mean Man is perfect.

 

[Timtofly]

This is an abuse of the word "mythology." We apparently use different definitions of the word "soul." This is not a "myth."

Furthermore, it is a falsehood. I never said I am not a soul. If I did you could quote me on this and prove it. But you can't. So you just twist my words and make up what you "conclude" that I mean.

I didn't say this either. Again, you just make up things, or are unable to read things properly. I said the joining of a human spirit with a human body creates a "soul," which I've said is a *spirit.* The soul is a spirit encased in a body, but a spirit that can live without a body, as well.

This is said directly in the Creation account. Saying it is not found in Scripture is a failure on your part to see that my statement is based on the Creation account.

I never said "air" is my "spirit." God breathed "life" into a human body, giving it life. (God was not rendering First Aid to someone not breathing!)

He did not put His own Spirit into the man, or he would be Jesus. Since our life was given a spiritual source, namely God, we are spiritual creatures. But we are not God.

God did not breath "air" into Man. He breathed a *spirit* into the man. That made him a soul, the fact that he was made to be a spiritual entity, and was designed to dwell inside a human body.

Paul is speaking, in 2 Cor 5.1 about our Hope--not about anything we presently have other than "hope." Christ reserves the "documents" guaranteeing our legal right to resurrection. Since Christ is presently in heaven, that is where our Hope is presently focused. This is not something we have yet.

If you can't argue without insult, you have a low threshold of pain. Do you have to inflict others with what you perceive to be affliction from them?

I'm not insulting you--I'm disagreeing with you. That's how we learn, through a measure of conflict. It isn't a bad thing, when tempered by Christian love.

"Spiritual Death" is a term used to express a spiritual condition, and certainly does not mean we are completely separate from God as mortal human beings. But Spiritual Life can indeed be restored to us in the form of a continuous relationship with God if we meet the conditions set forth by God's Word.

This covenant relationship in the NT is called being "Reborn" or being "Regenerated." We are then called "sons of God."

I don't quite agree with your language, swapping spiritual death for the Holy Spirit. But there is certainly some truth in it.

We are already sons of God when we are regenerated. And so, we already are wearing our "robe of righteousness," We are immediately able to "put on Christ" the moment we are converted to Christ. It is a free gift, both the right to Eternal Life and the right to live in his Righteousness.

When we put on our immortal bodies we will indeed improve our appearance! ;)

You are assuming that the Millennium is less tolerant of fallen mankind than the present era is. While it's true that the Millennium will be an improvement in society, it does not preclude there being sin in mankind.

Satan is bound--not sinful mankind. Mankind is ruled, but that doesn't mean Man is perfect.

Your mythology:

The soul doesn't "put on" a spirit. It *is* a spirit. When a human spirit is joined to a body, that spirit becomes a "soul." That soul is a human spirit indwelling a human body. One day that soul will put off the mortal human body and put on a brand new immortal body. The Bible calls this "glorification." It is *not* a problem. It's what the Bible says.

You may be confusing "putting on the Spirit" with defining a "soul" or a "human spirit?" Your terms and definitions are so confusing it's difficult to respond.

The soul is not a spirit. You are not a spirit.

Your own words:

"The soul doesn't "put on" a spirit. It *is* a spirit. When a human spirit is joined to a body, that spirit becomes a "soul." That soul is a human spirit indwelling a human body."

Of course the soul puts on a physical body, and then puts on the spirit. Two things just as Paul wrote: corruption (physical) puts on incorruption (physical). Mortal (spirit that you don't have thus you are dead) puts on immortality (the spirit given back making you alive)

You equate spirit with soul. You have stated that God put your spirit inside you, and thus making you a soul. That is not found anywhere in Scripture. God never put a spirit at all in a person, other than the Holy Spirit. If you don't think any one can have the Holy Spirit inside, that is a totally different topic. The breath of life is only air. It was not a resuscitation. They had never had life prior to that moment. The spirit that makes a person a trinity as a soul, body, and spirit is not even mentioned in Genesis 2:7.

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

The breadth of life is not your spirit. You don't have any other verses in Scripture directly addressing that point for that verse.

Now other places point out one giving up their spirit, which is that last breadth of air, but air is not part of the image of God. The Holy Spirit is part of the image of God. The Holy Spirit is not air. That word for air is used for spirit throughout Scripture. Still not your spirit that you are separated from because you are spiritually dead without that spirit. You are not spiritually dead because you breathed your last breadth. That would make you physically dead. Your spirit is not dead. A demon is not a dead spirit. It is a person's spirit that can possess another soul, but a spirit does not possess you. The spirit is put on over the physical body.

The spirit or robe of white in Revelation 6 is not robes of righteousness. Why would Jesus Himself need "robes of righteousness"?

You have yet to address the Mount of Transfiguration.

I am not insulting you either. Just pointing out your reliance on Greek mythology based on how you retain mortal and immortal as a state of being. Some don't like it when I call it Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Obviously "mortal" sounds better, but Greek mythology is also pointless entertainment.

God's body given to mankind is not immortal. It is permanent and incorruptible. Putting on the spirit gives us back our life in the image of God.

Do you think Daniel is only being symbolic?

"And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

"Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father."

"And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light."

Putting on the spirit obviously changes our appearance. Sure the light could come out of you. Seems to make more sense having on that light over the physical body. Also makes more sense, that when Adam and Eve lost their spirit, they saw their actual physical body underneath. Putting on clothes is just not the same as putting on the spirit.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

We will see Him shining like the sun. We shall then be like Him, also shining like the sun. All because we put on the robe of white over God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

Paul called that mortal putting on immortality. No longer dead but alive.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your mythology:
The soul is not a spirit. You are not a spirit.

Again, Timothy, this is *not* a "mythology." It is a definition--a reasonable one. It isn't a legend or a fable or a lie. It is a standard definition. Do you define any belief you don't agree with as a "mythology?"

Your own words:

"The soul doesn't "put on" a spirit. It *is* a spirit. When a human spirit is joined to a body, that spirit becomes a "soul." That soul is a human spirit indwelling a human body."

Of course the soul puts on a physical body, and then puts on the spirit.

So now you're agreeing with my "mythology?" That's precisely what I was saying, that a soul puts on a physical human body. It is encased by its body.

But it does not "put on the spirit." It *is* a spirit!

Perhaps you're talking about putting on the Holy Spirit? You seem to be confusing the fact that we are a spirit with our need, as Christians, to "put on Christ?" In doing so, we choose to follow after the Spirit of Christ, to be indwelt by Him, to be led by Him. We put on the mind of Christ so as to be led by his Spirit.

This is distinct from defining who we are, as spirits, or how we were created, to be human spirits encased in human bodies. As I said, the soul is a human spirit, which was created when God breathed life into our human bodies.

He did not breath "air" into our lungs. Typologically, it did look like this. However, He created a human spirit by breathing life into a lifeless body.

He undoubtedly put life into animal bodies, as well. But He uniquely indicates He breathed life into human bodies to show that we are unique from the animals. Humans are to reflect the likeness of God.

Two things just as Paul wrote: corruption (physical) puts on incorruption (physical).

This is the resurrection, and is not in question.

You equate spirit with soul. You have stated that God put your spirit inside you, and thus making you a soul.

God makes me a soul by putting a spirit inside my lifeless body, to fashion me a "soul." A soul is a spiritual entity, or person, designed to inhabit a body.

That is not found anywhere in Scripture. God never put a spirit at all in a person, other than the Holy Spirit.

You are confusing the human spirit with the Holy Spirit. No, God does not put a human spirit in a living person. Rather, He puts a human spirit in a lifeless body to make him a living person.

God does not put the Holy Spirit in a person to make him a living person. He puts the Holy Spirit in a person to enable him to conform regularly to Christ. This has nothing to do with making him into a living person.

If you don't think any one can have the Holy Spirit inside, that is a totally different topic.

As I've told you, you're confusing the Holy Spirit with the human spirit. We are to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But we are human spirits, whether the Holy Spirit fills us or not.

The breath of life is only air.

God's breath is not air.

Genesis 2:7.
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Yes, that's what I've been saying. You're misconstruing God's breath for "air," and you're misconstruing our human spirits for God's Holy Spirit. The Scriptures do describe our soul as human spirits.

The breadth of life is not your spirit.

That's exactly what the quote says, that God breathed life into Adam and he became a living soul. God's breath was "life"--not "air."

The Holy Spirit is not air. That word for air is used for spirit throughout Scripture.

Yes, if it is God's breath it would represent God's ability to create spiritual existence inside a human body, making or creating a Man.

The spirit is put on over the physical body.

The spirit is not like putting on clothing at all. It may have an effervescence--but it is not clothing. Righteousness is clothing--not the Spirit.

The spirit or robe of white in Revelation 6 is not robes of righteousness. Why would Jesus Himself need "robes of righteousness"?

Jesus would not be dressed in robes of un-righteousness! Of course Jesus wears his righteousness because that's who he is. What he wears, body or metaphorical "clothing," it is representative of his righteousness. (Post is too long.)

 

[Timtofly]

Again, Timothy, this is *not* a "mythology." It is a definition--a reasonable one. It isn't a legend or a fable or a lie. It is a standard definition. Do you define any belief you don't agree with as a "mythology?"

So now you're agreeing with my "mythology?" That's precisely what I was saying, that a soul puts on a physical human body. It is encased by its body.

But it does not "put on the spirit." It *is* a spirit!

Perhaps you're talking about putting on the Holy Spirit? You seem to be confusing the fact that we are a spirit with our need, as Christians, to "put on Christ?" In doing so, we choose to follow after the Spirit of Christ, to be indwelt by Him, to be led by Him. We put on the mind of Christ so as to be led by his Spirit.

This is distinct from defining who we are, as spirits, or how we were created, to be human spirits encased in human bodies. As I said, the soul is a human spirit, which was created when God breathed life into our human bodies.

He did not breath "air" into our lungs. Typologically, it did look like this. However, He created a human spirit by breathing life into a lifeless body.

He undoubtedly put life into animal bodies, as well. But He uniquely indicates He breathed life into human bodies to show that we are unique from the animals. Humans are to reflect the likeness of God.

This is the resurrection, and is not in question.


God makes me a soul by putting a spirit inside my lifeless body, to fashion me a "soul." A soul is a spiritual entity, or person, designed to inhabit a body.

You are confusing the human spirit with the Holy Spirit. No, God does not put a human spirit in a living person. Rather, He puts a human spirit in a lifeless body to make him a living person.

God does not put the Holy Spirit in a person to make him a living person. He puts the Holy Spirit in a person to enable him to conform regularly to Christ. This has nothing to do with making him into a living person.

As I've told you, you're confusing the Holy Spirit with the human spirit. We are to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But we are human spirits, whether the Holy Spirit fills us or not.

God's breath is not air.

Yes, that's what I've been saying. You're misconstruing God's breath for "air," and you're misconstruing our human spirits for God's Holy Spirit. The Scriptures do describe our soul as human spirits.

That's exactly what the quote says, that God breathed life into Adam and he became a living soul. God's breath was "life"--not "air."

Yes, if it is God's breath it would represent God's ability to create spiritual existence inside a human body, making or creating a Man.

The spirit is not like putting on clothing at all. It may have an effervescence--but it is not clothing. Righteousness is clothing--not the Spirit.

Jesus would not be dressed in robes of un-righteousness! Of course Jesus wears his righteousness because that's who he is. What he wears, body or metaphorical "clothing," it is representative of his righteousness. (Post is too long.)

Now all you are saying is that you are life, when you say God breathed life into you. You call the term "spirit" just "life".

God did not breath you into you.

The breadth of life is what gives us life, and it is more than air, but certainly not you being "slipped into" the physical body.

At what point in one's life do you think the Holy Spirit starts to work? Why would God not start in the womb like He did with John the Baptist, or was John the Baptist a special and unique person?

Being a son of God is not metaphorical. Sons of God have always existed since the 6th Day of creation. We are just not told that much about them, because the Bible is centered around Adam and Jesus Christ. We are told even less about our actual spirit that makes up the third part of who we are: soul, body, and spirit.

We are certainly not the same spirit make up as the angels. But obviously there are verses in Scripture that likened us united with our spirit to the angels in heaven. When we finally do put on the spirit, we will shine like the sun. Our spirit is not exactly righteousness, it is eternal life as having the spirit restores us back into the image of God as sons of God, thus life.

I do not see how me saying we put on the spirit at the Second Coming agrees with your point our spirit is inside of us from birth. If we have our spirit we would not be spiritually dead. We would not even need redemption. You have us as sons of God in the womb. You have us as spirit a single form inside a single body, making us a single soul.

The image of God is three distinct and separate parts. We are a soul that needs an incorruptible physical body, and needs to put on a spirit to make us whole again. If you already are spirit and soul, you don't need life, all you need is a better body.

 

[Zao is life]

No, the death he experienced was immediate, not over a long period according to Hebrew grammar related to the infinitive absolute verb pairing in Gen 2:17.

Simplified version:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When the Hebrew uses this same verb twice in a row one of the words will be spelled slightly different. One will be the infinitive absolute verb and the other is called the conjugated/inflected verb.

They can mean two different things but not both at the same time:

1. "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process because the verb means death. "dying thou shalt die".

OR

2. "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" re-enforcing the fact that he would definitely/surely die the literal day he sinned.

It all depends on if the infinitive absolute verb is first and the conjugated/inflected verb is last, or vice versa.

In the manuscripts the infinitive absolute verb is first and the conjugated/inflected verb is last so the meaning of the verb is "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" and NOT "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process.

In order for the verb to mean "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process it would have to have been the conjugated/inflected verb first and the infinitive absolute verb last but that is not how it appears in the manuscripts. Number 2 is the way the verb paring appears in Gen 2:17.



When it comes second as here: "t'muth muth" then it can only mean "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning death is a long process because the verb means death.

When the infinitive absolute verb comes first as it does here: "muth t'muth" it can only mean "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" and that is the order of the verb pairing in Gen 2:17.


I should explain what I mean by, "a future completed death spoken in an emphatic way" because I am aware the conjugated/inflected verb is in the imperfect which means an uncompleted action. God spoke these words before Adam sinned which is why the death is not a completed action yet when God spoke those words but the use of the infinitive absolute verb pairing supports the fact that Adam would indeed die the day he sinned as opposed to an incomplete death ie: begin to die. God said he would die the day he sinned and he definitely did. God simply never explained what type of death it would be.

Yes. The reason why his body began to die slowly is because he had died.

"And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you." --- Romans 8:10-11.

Our bodies are already dead because of sin but the reason our bodies have not died yet is because the process is not complete. The above verse tells us how God in Christ through the Spirit will reverse the process in the resurrection of our bodies.

 

[Zao is life]

The future glorified bodily resurrection of the saved believers is a foundational doctrine in the Christian faith, read 1 Corinthians chapter 15 and perhaps you can figure it out

No need to quote 1 Corinthians 15. We believe in the resurrection of the body from the dead.

Is God going to completely destroy His creation? How can 1 Corinthians 15:44 be true then, since it is the body that died that became the seed of the body that will be resurrected? How can it not be a completely newly created body, and how will you not be destroyed with the creation that you say is going to be completely destroyed, since you are a created being, and part of His creation?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Now all you are saying is that you are life, when you say God breathed life into you. You call the term "spirit" just "life".
God did not breath you into you.

We were talking about Adam and how God created him. God breathed *life* into his lifeless body, yes. In doing so, in putting life into a human body, He created a Man! He created a living soul, or a human spirit.

I'm not just saying that God animated a lifeless body or put the essence of life into him like plugging a cord into the wall. Rather, I'm saying that in energizing the lifeless body He was in this act *creating a living soul.*

The breadth of life is what gives us life, and it is more than air, but certainly not you being "slipped into" the physical body.

I did not say God "slipped a spirit into a body!"

God *breathed* a spirit of life into a lifeless body, and in this act created a human soul.

He didn't just breath life into a human body. Much more, He *created* a living soul.

At what point in one's life do you think the Holy Spirit starts to work? Why would God not start in the womb like He did with John the Baptist, or was John the Baptist a special and unique person?

I'm not even trying to determine *when* the Holy Spirit can begin to work in a person's life. That is another subject.

I'm saying that you should not confuse the work of the Spirit with the creation of Man as a living soul, or spirit. The spirit of Man and the Spirit of God are two very different things!

Being a son of God is not metaphorical.

I never said being a "son of God" is metaphorical!

Sons of God have always existed since the 6th Day of creation. We are just not told that much about them, because the Bible is centered around Adam and Jesus Christ.

Adam was a son of God. You make the "sons of God" to be a race of some kind? Sons of God are a class of people who follow God by faith, as opposed to those who choose to go their own way, living apart from God and His Spirit.

We are told even less about our actual spirit that makes up the third part of who we are: soul, body, and spirit.

There is a lot in the Bible about the constituent parts of a Man if you will just accept that our human soul is a spiritual entity, a human spirit.

We are certainly not the same spirit make up as the angels. But obviously there are verses in Scripture that likened us united with our spirit to the angels in heaven. When we finally do put on the spirit, we will shine like the sun. Our spirit is not exactly righteousness, it is eternal life as having the spirit restores us back into the image of God as sons of God, thus life.

I think you are overthinking this. If personal entities are not made up of the physical earth, then they are "spirits." Our physical bodies are not our personal entities, or they would cease to exist their bodies are dead.

I do not see how me saying we put on the spirit at the Second Coming agrees with your point our spirit is inside of us from birth.

You are confusing the Holy Spirit with the human spirit. We are created human spirits. We are empowered to consistently live the life of a Christian when we are filled with the Holy Spirit.

We put on Christ. We put on the mind of Christ. We do not put on and wear the Holy Spirit. We put on and wear Christ's righteousness. I'm just trying to get the biblical language right.

If we have our spirit we would not be spiritually dead. We would not even need redemption. You have us as sons of God in the womb. You have us as spirit a single form inside a single body, making us a single soul.

You seem terribly confused about what I believe. The more we discuss this the more confused you seem to get over what I believe. I tried....

 

[Timtofly]

He created a living soul, or a human spirit.

God created a soul with a body, and a spirit.

Not "or".

"And".

Being spiritually dead means we lack access to our spirit.

Sons of God are a class of people who follow God

Sons of God is the entire human race.

Unfortunately most of the human race remained in Adam's dead corruptible image.