CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

[Big Boy Johnson]

ALL people that the Lord created... are predestined to conformed to the image of his Son be cause He sees then end from the beginning and has fore knowledge of all people that would be born into this world.

The obvious issue is the devil blinds the understanding of those that don't believe ( 2 Corinthians 4:4 ) therefore not many answer God's call and they are lost. It's NOT God's will that it be that way and He did not prevent people from getting saved.

Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Jesus has tasted of death for every man (Hebrews 2:9)

The Father sovereignly decided to make man in His own Image which is why all men have free will. He said in His Word than we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29), and we are to be followers of God as dear children (Ephesians 5:1)

God's Word says man is without excuse (Romans 1:20), the grace that brings salvation has come upon all men (Titus 2:11-13)

God's Word says it's not God's will that any perish and He wants all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and He has commanded men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), and has given every man faith (Romans 12:3)

Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw all men until Himself (John 12:32), and Jesus has tasted of death for every man (Hebrews 2:9)

In light of all these scriptures, we can say for sure that limited atonement taught by John Calvin is false doctrine and is in opposition to what God says.

Calvin's peoples have to ignore scripture to hold their position and twist other scripture to say things God never says.

One can never trust Calvin's peoples as they believe they are elect no matter how they live and they could bust out in to sinful behavior at any moment and in their mind it's all good cause they think they will still go to Heaven if if they live like the devil!

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Listen..I’ve already given my testimony.lines up with Gods word.


I’m not in the slightest bit interested in what you copied and pasted of John Calvin.

I have found most people who have no spiritual knowledge or understanding of being chosen/ predestined by God, to become his Born Again child.....they always play the John Calvin card...now, what that’s saying about their own eternal security with Christ....I have no idea...I just knew from day one of being Born Again, I was set free from all my sins, by the grace and mercy of God...that’s all I have to say on the matter.

You should like the following from the Bible. I wont provide the link as you do not like to read them therefore wont. Your bible says this...............

1 John 2:1-2 KJV
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

(Since the blood of Christ covers all sin, and he atoned for the whole world)

Ephesians 1: 9-10

9 Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

( then predestination, or election, in the sense of being chosen by God to be his people, applies to everyone through Christ)

( It is received and enjoyed only by those who accept it in faith, but it applies to everyone.) (BUT IT APPLIES TO EVERYONE)


Titus 2: 11-14 KJV 11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

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13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

(Some people are called to faith in Christ and experience his redemption before others do (verse 12). Those called to faith early are a living testament to the grace God has poured out on the world, a grace that will come fully into view at the appearing of Christ)

But that is not the end of the story, even for those who rejected Christ. Paul declares in verse 23, “And even those of Israel, if they do not persist in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.” These people rejected Christ, yet God does not abandon them. The God who is forever faithful to his covenant love is so powerful that he can and does provide opportunity for unbelievers to become believers, even dead unbelievers (many of the unbelieving Israelites were dead, but God’s work of mercy involves all of them, see 11:32). We aren’t told how or when God does it, only that it is so.

Paul continues:

So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, “Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; he will banish ungodliness from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” (verses 25-27)

God works in his own ways and in his own times, but his work is aimed toward one final outcome, his desire for all people to be saved:

God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all. O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! (verses 32-33)

Even if God were to predestine some to destruction and some to salvation, it would be his right; pots don’t tell the potter how to make them. But the good news, the gospel truth, is that even though God has every right to destroy us all, he instead takes our sins on himself in Christ and forgives us and saves us. The “objects of God’s wrath” who were “prepared for destruction” in Romans 9:22 are unbelieving Israel, the same unbelieving Israel who will be “grafted back in” if they don’t persist in unbelief (11:23). In other words, Romans 9:22 is not a proof that some people are predestined by God for damnation. We need to read the context to see Paul’s full teaching on it.

See, it does not matter if we believe we are predestined and chosen before creation began or not... most all are likely to be "saved", if they want to be.

 

[Ritajanice]

See, it does not matter if we believe we are predestined and chosen before creation began or not... most all are likely to be "saved", if they want to be.

In your opinion, not in mine...God has already spoken about vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath..

God chooses, not man, my opinion.

 

[Logikos]

I have many writings stored on my computer that I have written, that I can copy and paste, some a mixture from my notes over years from others~besides, if it is truth, who cares how one shares it with others. If it wrong then prove it.

I have no problem with copy/paste, per se. You'll do better though if you either make it way more obvious that you're copy/pasting stuff. The way you're doing it comes off as lazy, for one thing and since you copy/paste way more than anyone is going to read, you end up having even less of your post read at all.

Calvinism does have some flaws, but much less than Arminianism~you and I both belong to one of these camps, not totally but overall, it is the only two known by all who debates theology.

That's stupidity.

I am very definitely not either a Calvinist nor an Arminian. Calvinism is more logically consistent that Arminianism is but that is precisely what makes it worse, not better.

I reject any and all theological systems which are based on Augustinian dogma, which intentionally polluted the church with Greek ideas about the nature of God.

I do not believe that God predestined everything. That's just about the extent to which I agree with Arminian doctrine. I, for example, do not believe that one can lose their salvation but not for any reason that resembles anything a Calvinist would agree with.
I also disagree with both system's teaching in relation to God's existence outside of time which is self-defeating and wholly unbiblical bunch of irrational nonsense.

So, why do you not prove that you are not of the Arminian camp, pretty sure you are, most likely very deep into it.

I despise Arminianism! It is literally laughable that you're so ignorant as to believe that they are the only two options!

You are welcome to copy and paste you understanding, no problem with me.

If I were to do so, I would cite my source, even if I was that source so that everyone would know what I was doing and why. I would also use proper English sentence structure so that what I wrote was readable and the line of reasoning could be followed without have to read it four times.

I doubt that...but, if that is your method, which quite often it is with men like you, then I understand why you said what you did.

It isn't my method at all. I wasn't recommending it as a method, I was equating its effectiveness with that of your original post, which was minimal, at best.

 

[Logikos]

Quoting Ezekiel 18 along with Romans 5:18, shown just how incontinence men like you are and how confuse you are! Romans 5:18 should show you that a another sense must be put on Ezekiel 18 than the one you desired to put on those verses! You actually did my work for me~thank you !

You quoted Romans 7:8...why? what does that verse has to do with the doctrine of original sin? Let me tell you~Romans seven establishes original sin! Folks like you makes my job so much easier, you do the work for us to expose your ignorance.



Well, you do did a great job of proving it!

Btw, God is just, but what does this has to do with what you are attempting to prove?

You're a liar. Who is it exactly that you're trying to convince?

Good bye!

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Good bye!

Taking your toys and leaving so soon?

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

In your opinion, not in mine...God has already spoken about vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath..

God chooses, not man, my opinion.

And you my friend do not even believe what you read in the bible..... for there is not one thing in what I sent that suggests anything else. It merely explains another side of God's choosing.

 

[Ritajanice]

And you my friend do not even believe what you read in the bible.....

I believe what God brings me to my understanding of course.

I don’t believe man made religion. of what man has made up to say what God is saying, where they twist the word of God, certainty not....

This is where we need to listen and ask God for more discernment.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Greetings Ronald, how do you read 2nd Samuel 24:1? Any thoughts?

Just what it says. God got angry with Israel and God told David to number them.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Then I will ask God to show me my error, that he doesn’t harden believers hearts....I want his truth...I don’t want to be stubborn and not listen to what he’s saying...your post above did speak to my heart.

A few good verses to ponder is this:

Hebrews 4:7
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

1 Samuel 6:6
Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?

Believers can harden their own hearts. but God through the working of HIs Spirit will convict and urge the believer to forsake their hardening.

 

[Ritajanice]

Believers can harden their own hearts. but God through the working of HIs Spirit will convict and urge the believer to forsake their hardening.

Yes, this has happened to me..in my opinion.thanks.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I think I may have over reacted...where do we sin then?

If we have been Born Again of imperishable seed?

I want to hear God’s truth not my truth.

As Paul wrote in almost all his letters, we sin when we choose to walk after our own human nature and not the Spirit.

Paul had exhortations like these:

Romans 12

King James Version

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12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

We sin when we allow ourselves to allow ourselves to be conformed to this world.

As Paul also wrote anything outside of faith is sin. If we walk not in faith, we sin.

But as JOhn wrote:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2

King James Version

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2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

God forbid we sin, but we do. God knows we live in bodies of sin and death. That is why Jesus suffered the wrath of God for all our sins, not just most of them.

God is patient and loving and kind and merciful as well as holy and just and terrifyingly perfect. He forgives us because He punished Jesus as our sins.

 

[Red Baker]

You're a liar. Who is it exactly that you're trying to convince?

Good bye!

Oh, I see the third option~you truly do not believe the scriptures!

I will not even waste my time with folks like you, you do not deserve it. Have a nice life, it will be the only one you get get a little joy out of.

 

[Ritajanice]

As Paul wrote in almost all his letters, we sin when we choose to walk after our own human nature and not the Spirit.

Sorry, I can’t agree with this, I’m in the new nature, the day I became Born Again.

It’s my old mindset that I keep going in and out in..my mind is being renewed , which is a process.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sorry, I can’t agree with this, I’m in the new nature, the day I became Born Again.

It’s my old mindset that I keep going in and out in..my mind is being renewed , which is a process.

Absolutely right! but what you fail to accept is the fact that your old mindset is called biblically, the flesh and the natural man.

Paul said this about our flesh or natural man.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

You need to learn and understand that a believer has to perspectives which they exist in.

1. Our position- We are in christ, dead and hidden, seated in heavenly places, perfected forver etc.
2. Our experience or daily walk, unlearning the old sinful ways and learning th enew while we are fully placed in #1

 

[Ritajanice]

Absolutely right! but what you fail to accept is the fact that your old mindset is called biblically, the flesh and the natural man.

Paul said this about our flesh or natural man.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

You need to learn and understand that a believer has to perspectives which they exist in.

1. Our position- We are in christ, dead and hidden, seated in heavenly places, perfected forver etc.
2. Our experience or daily walk, unlearning the old sinful ways and learning th enew while we are fully placed in #1

Sorry I don’t agree...my old man was crucified with Christ..I’m in the new man..that new man is Christ..

I’m not in the natural man..or the flesh, I’m in the Spirit.

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◄ Romans 8:9 ►

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Verse (Click for Chapter) King James Bible But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. New King James Version But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. American Standard Version But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Berean Study Bible You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

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◄ Romans 6:6 ►

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Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— New Living Translation We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. English Standard Version We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Berean Standard Bible We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

 

[Robert Pate]

Sorry I don’t agree...my old man was crucified with Christ..I’m in the new man..that new man is Christ..

I’m not in the natural man..or the flesh, I’m in the Spirit.

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◄ Romans 8:9 ►

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Verse (Click for Chapter) King James Bible But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. New King James Version But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. American Standard Version But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Berean Study Bible You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

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◄ Romans 6:6 ►

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Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— New Living Translation We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. English Standard Version We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Berean Standard Bible We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

Many believe that our old sin nature has been destroyed and that they are as righteous as Christ. It sounds good, but it is not true. We are still sinners saved by grace, Ephesians 2:8. The grace is the grace of God. We don't have any grace, nor do we have a righteousness that God will accept. We are accepted only in Christ and because of Christ. Paul suffered with his sin nature, just like we do, See Romans 7:7-25.

 

[Logikos]

Oh, I see the third option~you truly do not believe the scriptures!

I will not even waste my time with folks like you, you do not deserve it. Have a nice life, it will be the only one you get get a little joy out of.

I don't understand what profit you derive from such blatant dishonesty. You aught to be embarrassed and ashamed of yourself.

One thing's for certain, you'd be a waste of my time.

Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

God got angry with Israel and God told David to number them.

And David got disciplined by the Lord for doing so.

 

[Red Baker]

Many believe that our old sin nature has been destroyed and that they are as righteous as Christ. It sounds good, but it is not true. We are still sinners saved by grace, Ephesians 2:8. The grace is the grace of God. We don't have any grace, nor do we have a righteousness that God will accept. We are accepted only in Christ and because of Christ. Paul suffered with his sin nature, just like we do, See Romans 7:7-25.

Robert, I agree with almost everything you said here, but one main thing which I highlighted.

All that are in Christ are as righteous as he is in their new man which has been created after the image of Jesus Christ. which man cannot sin!

1st John 3:3,9~And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure........................Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes, the old man (that is, our flesh) is still with us, that keeps us from perfectly doing the will of God even in our most holy duties, sin is mixed with all we do. Yet, it is not the new man but sin that liveth in us, that causes us to know that we are in ourselves by nature wretched sinners living in a body of sin and death. So then with the mind (the new man) I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh (the old man) the law of sin.