Waiting on him
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Yes they planted and watered, but just as Jesus told Peter it was God that gave the increase.
Peter the Rock?
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Got it. You want to go from our literal conversation to a figurative conversation just so you can, in your mind, be right. Dually noted.
Waiting on him
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It’s not about me being right. That gets no one anywhere!
I believe our thinks should be able to stand against a little scrutiny. I don’t want to be in a false dilemma fallacy.
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Nope, what Bernardine wrote is not "one of the writings of Catholicism". It is a writing of a member of the Catholic Church. You are confused as to what is a writing of The Church and a writing of an individual person.
Here are the writings of The Church: The Holy See
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2 Timothy is a letter from Paul to Timothy and Timothy only. It's called a pastoral letter.
Where it says, "Consider what I say" that is Paul telling Timothy to consider what he, Paul, is saying TO TIMOTHY.
Where it says, "and the Lord give thee understanding in all things" THEE is Timothy. NOT YOU. Not me. Not everyone on this forum. You are not Timothy, and you are not a pastor. The letter was not meant for YOU!
.If you really think that the Lord is giving YOU understanding in all things, then you have to agree that He is giving ME understanding in all things and everybody else on this forum.
Goodness gracious....
Taken
Well-Known Member
2 Timothy is a letter from Paul to Timothy and Timothy only. It's called a pastoral letter.
Where it says, "Consider what I say" that is Paul telling Timothy to consider what he, Paul, is saying TO TIMOTHY.
Where it says, "and the Lord give thee understanding in all things" THEE is Timothy. NOT YOU. Not me. Not everyone on this forum. You are not Timothy, and you are not a pastor. The letter was not meant for YOU!
.If you really think that the Lord is giving YOU understanding in all things, then you have to agree that He is giving ME understanding in all things and everybody else on this forum.
Goodness gracious....
Mary, I am NOT YOU, and YOU are not Me.
Scripture reveals many things, INCLUDING how to gain Gods Knowledge…..AND how to gain Gods Understanding “OF” His Knowledge.
You can not tell me WHAT an other’s words means.
It is “individuals” who have the answer to what “their” words. mean.
Same with God. God holds the “answer” to what His words mean.
Thus God offers an Avenue for “some” men to ASK God what His word (His approved Scriptural words) mean.
“Some” men is key. There is are many who are “called”….to Believe….FEW will “CONVERT” (which is to say, FEW WILL continue believing…and FEW CONFESS their their True BELIEF (IN God AND Christ being the Son of God). Some people Just can NOT truly believe that.
It is the CONVERTED that have the “direct prayer line” to ASKING God, His meanings (His Understanding) of His word.
There are scriptures about ASKING foolish questions….There are scriptures about ASKING spiritual questions….AND…Here…
Matt 7:
[7] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matt 7:
[9] Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
A converted person, IS a “son of God” born of Gods seed.
Jesus is revealed, the Life, the Bread of (spiritual) Life, the Rock of His Church.
Peter is revealed, a stone, as are all individuals one atop another, building Christ’s Church.
I have NO clue, what you or anyone else reads, studies, or who is or is not Converted, or who does or does not ASK God for His Understanding….I only surely Know, what I do.
God is Spirit, so also is His word, His power, and His understanding.
The Apostles knew that, and even mention in their own words, their desire that other men would have the same “spiritual understanding”.
Col 1:
[9] For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Two fold….Gods Knowledge AND Gods Understanding of His Knowledge.
I seriously and repeatedly SEEK after ^ that.
Again, I can only know the extent of my own efforts, not what anyone else does or doesn’t do.
BreadOfLife
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I don't really know what you're talking about. I’m not “contradicting” anything.
First of all - there is NO such thing as the "Roman Catholic Church".
“Roman” or “Latin” refers to a Liturgical Rite. There are some TWENTY Liturgical Rites that comprise the ONE Catholic Church. There is the Byzantine, Melkite, Maronite, Ruthenian, Alexandrian, etc. – and they are not “Roman” Catholics. However, we are in full communion with each other.
As for your false claim above in RED – I would LOVE for you to provide documented evidence that the Catholic Church was formed in 590 and that the first Pope was Gregory 1. He was, in fact, the 64th Pope.
As to your problems with the doctrine of Transubstantiation – I was wasn’t discussing that, so I don’t know WHY you even brought this up. However, I would be more than happy tu to discuss it with you as another topic . . .
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Dear Taken,
The FACT is that 2 Timothy was a letter from Paul to Timothy and he was speaking to Timothy and Timothy only. NOTHING in your diatribe proved that FACT wrong. ;)
Also, Colossians 1 is a letter from Paul and Timothy to the church in Colossae. I that letter to their "brothers and sisters" Paul and Timothy say that they are praying for them and desire that THEY (the brothers and sisters in Colossae) might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding! How does it say they got that wisdom and spiritual understanding, Taken???? Start out at vs1 taken and read all the way thru to vs9 and put it all in CONTEXT!!
IN CONTEXT, Paul is saying he and Timothy have heard about their brothers and sisters in Colossae faith in Christ Jesus and that they, the Church in Colossae, are bearing fruit from the day they HEARD it (the Gospel) and that they truly comprehended the grace of God. Who did Paul hear this from Taken???????????? EPAPHRAS???? Paul says, since the day we heard it, we have not ceased praying for you and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of God’s will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding. They, the brothers and sisters in Colossae, are being filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding by Epaphras teaching them.
That passage had NOTHING to do with your theory that the Apostles "desire that other men would have the same “spiritual understanding” as them.
Goodness gracious....you are wearing this teacher out!
Taken
Well-Known Member
Dear Taken,
The FACT is that 2 Timothy was a letter from Paul to Timothy and he was speaking to Timothy and Timothy only. NOTHING in your diatribe proved that FACT wrong. ;)
Also, Colossians 1 is a letter from Paul and Timothy to the church in Colossae. I that letter to their "brothers and sisters" Paul and Timothy say that they are praying for them and desire that THEY (the brothers and sisters in Colossae) might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding! How does it say they got that wisdom and spiritual understanding, Taken???? Start out at vs1 taken and read all the way thru to vs9 and put it all in CONTEXT!!
IN CONTEXT, Paul is saying he and Timothy have heard about their brothers and sisters in Colossae faith in Christ Jesus and that they, the Church in Colossae, are bearing fruit from the day they HEARD it (the Gospel) and that they truly comprehended the grace of God. Who did Paul hear this from Taken???????????? EPAPHRAS???? Paul says, since the day we heard it, we have not ceased praying for you and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of God’s will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding. They, the brothers and sisters in Colossae, are being filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding by Epaphras teaching them.
That passage had NOTHING to do with your theory that the Apostles "desire that other men would have the same “spiritual understanding” as them.
Goodness gracious....you are wearing this teacher out!
I do not agree with your conclusion.
The Colossians were primarily Gentiles.
Timothy like Paul was of a Gentile father and Jew mother, Timothy himself becoming a student and disciple of Paul, aiding Paul in his ministry, that the Lord had separated Paul to do works for the Lord.
Be it Paul or Timothy under the guidance of Paul….both were teachers to the Gentiles…
I am a Gentile, and accept their teaching, preaching of Scripture to Gentiles as applicable to me.
No different than a Jew accepting the teaching of the Jewish Apostles regarding Scripture…
Or you accepting the teachings of catholic men.
Freewill.
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Dear, dear Taken,
I would like to think you are joking...... but I don't think you are. Our disagreement isn't about "their teaching". It is about CONTEXT!!
The opening of the letter says: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,2 To the saints and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ in Colossae:
The letter, TO THE COLLASIANS, goes on to say Paul and Timothy are praying for them!!! Paul is acknowledging their accomplishments and encouraging them. Paul is praying and asking that they may be filled with the knowledge of God’s will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding. He desires, thru his prayers, that they lead lives worthy of the Lord so that they will bear fruit in every good work, and they grow in the knowledge of God.
NOTHING, ZILCH, NADDA, ZERO, NONE OF IT from vs 1 to vs 14 has to do with any TEACHINGS. It is pure recognition and encouragement of the Colossian church with a dash of recognizing their fellow servant and faithful minister of Christ, Epaphras, who told Paul and Timothy about the Colossians love in the Spirit.
Sooooooooo I don't care if you "agree" with my conclusion. Twist those passages all you want. I DON'T CARE!! This has NOTHING to do with the teachings of Catholic men. It has to do with CONTEXT of vs 1-14. How BIZARRE for you even to say that it has something to do with Catholic men...... goodnes gracious.
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ScottA
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Yes, then Peter told the church "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction." Then under those "false teachers" the so called Catholic church was formed separating itself from the full leading of the Holy Spirit sent by Jesus who then went against Peter's further warning, and adopted their own "private interpretation" of the scriptures.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Because "false teachers" were foretold by Peter to enter the church, thereby reverting authority over the church back to the Holy Spirit where it was supposed to be in the first place and forever. Which is exactly what also occurred with Israel--authority was taken from them.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Acts 2:5-12
And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”
14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
Not just upon the eleven, nor even just upon men.
Taken
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I don’t twist Scriptures….Gentiles being address IN Christ…applies to me.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
"OR'??? "Catholic men" don't accept "the teaching of the Jewish Apostles regarding Scripture"??? That's what you are saying.
Your little dig is a false dichotomy; another stupid insult based on prejudice and ignorance.
CATHOLIC comes from the Greek word Katholikos, which was later Latinized into Catholicus.
It means 'Universal', which in itself means, 'of or relating to, or affecting the entire world and ALL peoples therein'. It means, ALL encompassing, comprehensibly broad, general, and containing ALL that is necessary. In summation, it means ALL people in ALL places, having ALL that is necessary, and for ALL time.
It is inferred in Matthew 28:19-20, "Go, therefore and make disciples of ALL nations...teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded you; And behold, I am with you ALL days, even unto the consummation of the world."
That is a statement of Universality, Katholicos, Catholicus, Catholic.
Rom. 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
….and you belong to that Church whose faith St. Paul describes as being "proclaimed (KATAnggeletai) in the whole universe (en HOLO to kosmo)”
Thus the word KATAHOLOS or Catholic in English originated from Scriptures - Romans 1:8
"So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Sama'ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied." [Acts 9:31 RSV]
There the words "church throughout all" is translated from the Greek words "Ecclesia kata holis" But it was after Ignatius that the term Catholic Church became used more and more to designate the true church. For example the Martyrdom of Polycarp of 155AD states:
"And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled"
(Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).
Written records of the term "CATHOLIC" describing a character of the Christian Church:
Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrneans 110AD;
Martyrdom of St. Polycarp 155AD;
Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 202AD;
Cyprian, Unity of the Catholic Church 251AD;
Cyprian, Letter to Florentius, 254AD
"Christian is my name, and Catholic my surname. The one designates me, while the other makes me specific. Thus am I attested and set apart... When we are called Catholics it is by this appellation that our people are kept apart from any heretical name."
Saint Pacian of Barcelona, Letter to Sympronian, 375 A.D.
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Truthnightmare
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Oh really, so who are these writings from?
The 'Queen of Heaven': Pope Pius XII (1939-58), a Pope many today still remember, described Mary as 'Queen of Heaven'. It was he, on November 1st 1950, who proclaimed ex-Cathedra 'from the seat' (infallibly) that Mary's body was raised from the grave shortly after she died, and she was taken up and enthroned as 'Queen of Heaven.' At St. Peter Square on Easter Day 1988, Pope John Paul II's message included a prayer "to the Queen of Heaven for protection and peace in the world." The only references to be found in Scripture of the 'Queen of Heaven' relate to the Canaanite pagan goddess to whom the Israelites burned incense, made cakes and poured out drink offerings, and who was detestable and wicked in the eyes of the Lord:
CC (Catechism) 966: "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as QUEEN over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.' [LG 59; cf. Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus (1950): DS 3903; cf. Rev 19:16.] The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death." [Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.]
The Catholic Pope says through it's Catechism (teaching):
In the Catholic Catechism, Mary is placed on par with Jesus Christ:
The Catholic dogma even claims that the Commandment prohibiting the use of the lord's name in vain is extended to the name of Mary:
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
Fair enough…
The church is built on Christ…
What is the church? It is a body of believers who believe in Christ… The rock that the church is built on is a spiritual rock… so what spiritual rock do you drink from? Christ or Peter?
1 Cor 10:4
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock [petra] that followed them: and that Rock [petra] was Christ. KJV
Peace to you.
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
There is clear documentation to the contrary of this statement.
Constantine:
His conversion: In the course of his wars with competitors, to establish himself on the throne, on the eve of the battle of Milvain Bridge, just outside Rome (October 27, AD. 312), he saw in the sky, just above the setting sun, a vision of the Cross, and above it the words: "In This Sign Conquer." He decided to fight under the banner of Christ, and he Won the Battle, a Turning Point in the history of Christianity.
His Edict of Toleration (A.D. 313): By this Edict, Constantine granted to "Christians and to all others Full Liberty of following that Religion which each may choose," the first edict of its kind in history. He went further. He favored Christians in every way: filled chief offices with them: exempted Christian ministers from taxes and military service; encouraged and helped in building Churches: made Christianity the Religion of his Court: issued a general exhortation (A.D. 325), to all his subjects, to embrace Christianity: and, because the Roman Aristocracy persisted in adhering to their Pagan Religions, Constantine moved his Capitol to Byzantium, and called it Constantinople, "New Rome," Capital of the New Christian Empire.
Constantine and the Bible: He ordered, for the Churches of Constantinople, 50 Bibles, to be prepared under the direction of Eusebius, on the finest vellum, by skillful artists; and he commissioned two Public Carriages for their speedy conveyance to the Emperor. It is possible that the Sinaitic and Vatican Manuscripts are of this group.
Constantine and Sunday: He made the Christians day of Assembly, Sunday, a Rest Day; forbidding ordinary work; permitting Christian soldiers to attend Church services, This Rest for One Day a week meant much for slaves.
Houses of Worship: The First Church Building was erected in the reign of Alexander Severus (A.D. 222--235). After the edict of Constantine they began to be built everywhere.
Reforms: Slavery, Gladiatorial Fights, Killing of Unwelcome Children, and Crucifixion as a form of execution, were abolished with the Christianization of the Roman Empire.
Paganization of the Church:
Emperor Constantine (A.D. 306-337), when he became a Christian, issued an Edict granting Everybody the right to choose his own Religion.
Emperor Theodosius (AD. 378-398), made Christianity the State Religion of the Roman Empire, and made Church Membership Compulsory. This was the Worst Calamity that has ever befallen the Church. This Forced Conversion filled the Churches with Unregenerate People.
By "Roman Catholic Church" is normally meant the denomination headquartered in Vatican City and led by the Pope. These days, and indeed for over a thousand years, dropping the "Roman" would have deceived nobody, as everyone understood the phrase "Catholic Church" to refer to that same Vatican-based church.
But it was not always so. Whether in Latin or Greek or Syriac or Coptic, the phrase "Catholic Church" in the first three centuries of Christendom would have been understood as a reference to the universal, consensus set of doctrines held not only by the Roman See but by Sees throughout the Mediterranean world that recognized themselves as autonomous within their own episcopates, owing no obeisance or deference to the Pope in Rome, and not recognizing the Pope's authority over them. The "Catholic Church" in that era was far more than the faith led by the Roman See.
For example, what became the Eastern Orthodox Church of today, just as is true with the Roman Catholic Church, would rightly have been part of the third-century or fourth-century "Catholic" Church. The Eastern Orthodox Church sees in Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Antioch didn't "break away" from the Roman Catholic Church. They were always part of what was originally called the Catholic Church (just as Rome was) and simply maintained their historical autonomy, refusing -- as they had from the beginning -- to recognize Rome's hegemony.
But it was not always so. Whether in Latin or Greek or Syriac or Coptic, the phrase "Catholic Church" in the first three centuries of Christendom would have been understood as a reference to the universal, consensus set of doctrines held not only by the Roman See but by Sees throughout the Mediterranean world that recognized themselves as autonomous within their own episcopates, owing no obeisance or deference to the Pope in Rome, and not recognizing the Pope's authority over them. The "Catholic Church" in that era was far more than the faith led by the Roman See.
For example, what became the Eastern Orthodox Church of today, just as is true with the Roman Catholic Church, would rightly have been part of the third-century or fourth-century "Catholic" Church. The Eastern Orthodox Church sees in Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Antioch didn't "break away" from the Roman Catholic Church. They were always part of what was originally called the Catholic Church (just as Rome was) and simply maintained their historical autonomy, refusing -- as they had from the beginning -- to recognize Rome's hegemony.
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