They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[rwb]

Be careful. It's you who does not know where the Kingdom of God is. And it's you who does not understand what the eternal life is that Jesus and His apostles taught about, and why eternal life includes the human body.

And it's you who is the first to subtly imply that others (myself and David) are not saved.

And it's your doctrine which is false and a deception.

So you should be careful.

I don't know your hearts! I know only that you seem to deny what Scripture plainly tells us. That the Kingdom of God has come when Christ came to earth a man. You're looking for a physical Kingdom of God to be on this earth, and Scripture says the Kingdom of God is not observable because it is within you, and that the Kingdom of God is NOT now of this world, because the Kingdom of God is NOT now physical, but is a spiritual Kingdom of God that is only known and entered when man is born again of the Spirit within.

If the Kingdom of God has come, and it has, where is God's Kingdom that shall not end when our flesh has breathed its last? When Christ ascended to heaven "there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." Where is the Kingdom of God which shall not be destroyed if not in the realm of heaven? Since the Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom of heaven, why would anyone deny that after our body of flesh ceases to have life, believers live on in heaven a spiritual body of believers there? There is only one reason you and all Premillennialists refuse to accept this truth, that's because it destroys your doctrine of deception!

 

[Davidpt]

I don't know your hearts! I know only that you seem to deny what Scripture plainly tells us. That the Kingdom of God has come when Christ came to earth a man. You're looking for a physical Kingdom of God to be on this earth, and Scripture says the Kingdom of God is not observable because it is within you, and that the Kingdom of God is NOT now of this world, because the Kingdom of God is NOT now physical, but is a spiritual Kingdom of God that is only known and entered when man is born again of the Spirit within.

If the Kingdom of God has come, and it has, where is God's Kingdom that shall not end when our flesh has breathed its last? When Christ ascended to heaven "there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." Where is the Kingdom of God which shall not be destroyed if not in the realm of heaven? Since the Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom of heaven, why would anyone deny that after our body of flesh ceases to have life, believers live on in heaven a spiritual body of believers there? There is only one reason you and all Premillennialists refuse to accept this truth, that's because it destroys your doctrine of deception!

Unless you have been living in another universe, you should already know that a good majority of Premils already agree that when a saved person dies they enter heaven in disembodied state while awaiting a bodily resurrection. What exactly are you arguing against here? Are you arguing that every single Premil believes in soul sleep or something?

Just because the saved might go to heaven upon death and live in a disembodied state, that hardly equals what Amils take Revelation 20:4-6 to be involving. Amil has these reigning in a disembodied state in heaven rather than reigning in a bodily state upon the earth. As if heaven is in need of priests there, especially priests in a disembodied state---but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years(Revelation 20:6).

That has to be the most bizarre nonsense I have ever heard of, that while in a disembodied state, this is being applied to them---but they shall be priests of God and of Christ.


Edited to add. I meant to submit that per your post pertaining to #720 instead. Don't know why I did it per this post? Maybe because some of it relates to post #720, meaning this part---I don't know your hearts! ? Who knows? Oh well.

 

[rwb]

Unless you have been living in another universe, you should already know that a good majority of Premils already agree that when a saved person dies they enter heaven in disembodied state while awaiting a bodily resurrection. What exactly are you arguing against here? Are you arguing that every single Premil believes in soul sleep or something?

Just because the saved might go to heaven upon death and live in a disembodied state, that hardly equals what Amils take Revelation 20:4-6 to be involving. Amil has these reigning in a disembodied state in heaven rather than reigning in a bodily state upon the earth. As if heaven is in need of priests there, especially priests in a disembodied state---but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years(Revelation 20:6).

That has to be the most bizarre nonsense I have ever heard of, that while in a disembodied state, this is being applied to them---but they shall be priests of God and of Christ.


Edited to add. I meant to submit that per your post pertaining to #720 instead. Don't know why I did it per this post? Maybe because some of it relates to post #720, meaning this part---I don't know your hearts! ? Who knows? Oh well.

The FACT that John writes of faithful martyred saints alive after physical death proves Amillennialism, unless of course you are blinded by Premillennialism doctrine of deception. How can these martyred souls be physically alive during this time symbolized a thousand years, since none will be physically resurrected before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds that time/delay shall be no longer? You have them physically alive again after physically dying to fit your doctrine of deception.

You're too blinded by your doctrine of deception to understand what John has written. That's because you don't have a clue about specific times recorded in the Revelation, and ASSUME things about these times, like 42 months and 1260 days thinking they should be literal. You try to guess according to what you think might or could be.

John sees life where there should be none because before the died they lived and reigned with Christ during this time symbolized a thousand years. And according to what is written in vs 6 there will be others called "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." These are in addition to those martyred souls John says have already lived and died in faith during this same period of TIME, symbolized a thousand years.

None of these who have lived and reigned with Christ in TIME, nor those who shall reign with Christ in TIME shall be bodily raised to immortality and incorruptibility before an hour that is coming when the last/seventh trumpet sounds. Then they shall once again live with Christ a complete or whole human being with both body of flesh + breath of life through their eternal/everlasting spirit to once again be complete living souls to inhabit the NEW EARTH, not this earth destined to destruction.

 

[Timtofly]

A parable is a story intended to make an important point. In this case, Jesus told the Pharisees a fable intended to teach a moral lesson. We recognize it to be a fable based on the fact that it employs fabulous language.

The idea that Jesus was teaching human wisdom doesn't follow from his use of Hebrew mythology to tell a fable.


It is a fable, a tale with a moral lesson. There is nothing satirical about it.

How so?

You are mistaken to think that a parable needs to have a particular format. It doesn't. But all of Jesus' parables are fictional stories. And some fictional stories, such as fables, teach a moral lesson. I maintain that the story of Lazarus is a fable, teaching that the present life is the time to do business with God, and that the Law of Moses is fair warning.


Josephus wrote about Hades and the Hebrew belief in "Abraham's bosom," which had two compartments for the righteous and unrighteous dead. Jesus borrowed elements from that myth in order to tell a fable about a rich man and Lazarus. The fable is a fictional story. Jesus borrowed images from Hebrew mythology to create his fable.

I haven't denied the word of God. Jesus tells a fable to teach a moral principle. That fable is recorded in Luke 16, which is the word of God. But why don't you provide scripture to back up YOUR claims?

I reviewed all the places in the Bible where the term is used. And in every case, it refers to a room in the dirt motel. It is nothing more than the grave.

There is no Biblical evidence to support the idea that soul is eternal. The concept of an eternal soul came from Greek Philosophy -- not the Bible.

In Revelation 20 it says that Hades gave up the dead; it also says that the sea gave up the dead. Hades is dirt and the Sea is water. Those in Hades have been granted a dirt burial, while those in the Sea were granted a burial at sea. Neither Hades nor the Sea are places where people get up and walk around.


You might provide scripture where God actually says that the soul is eternal.

Fable:

"a short story, typically with animals as characters,"

Scripture stated Jesus spoke in parables, not fables.

Satire can be irony or reversal to show the inequality of the status quo. Satire was in use by the Greeks for hundreds of years before the first century.

This story that Jesus gave them was not called a parable so it could be non-fiction and Satire, as it shows both irony and reversal of life after death. Is it ironic or coincidence that Jesus then called Lazarus out of sheol and God did let Lazarus come back as a witness to this rich man's other brothers who were still alive and had authority with the religious leaders who later called for the crucifixion of Jesus. That is the implication of this account and the resurrection of Lazarus.

I already have shown where the soul is eternal and gets a totally different physical body. You denied that Scripture.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

The "we" in that whole chapter is interchangeable with soul. Why would a body have a body over it?

In Revelation, John uses the word soul as the individual not a body. The body only described how that individual physically died. The soul was slain, but still alive because John was saying they no longer had Adam's dead corruptible flesh. You cannot take Adam's body into heaven and the presence of God. Scripture constantly tells us this current flesh from Adam returns to dust, not the grave. The soul goes into the grave, as in sheol. Are you saying that all the dirt on earth is then cast into the LOF?

In this verse is all the dirt on earth riding a horse:

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth."

Did the dirt kill 2 billion people?

In Revelation 20 when the dead stand before the GWT that is only the soul. Because as you put it, the dirt emptied out the soul, and only the soul was cast into the LOF and then the dirt cast in after that point.

Paul says you are you with or without a physical body. But is better to be clothed with a body, than be found naked without a body. Paul said there was a temporal corruptible physical body. Paul said there was a permanent incorruptible physical body. To have the latter is the restoration as a son of God.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

So the soul is eternal with or without a body. Having an eternal physical body is preferable over going into the LOF with all the dirt.

You still seem to think dirt is eternal, but you as a soul are not eternal.

What do you mean by the concept of an eternal soul came from the Greeks? Did the Greeks write Genesis 2?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Even then, soul did not mean body. The body was the dust, and the body of death, returns to dust. But a living soul is defined in Scripture as distinct from both the body and spirit. Do you not think that God is capable at conception to create a soul into the physical shell that is the body formed from both parents? The body comes from Adam's flesh, not the soul. And the spirit is not just the same dust as the physical except with a slightly different composition we call gas. There is a difference between using Greek words and getting bogged down in Greek mythology.

 

[Timtofly]

Exactly! I'm certainly NOT going to agree with Premillennialists NONSENSE! Apparently, you do NOT believe Christ when He says the life we have when we live and believe in Him is FOREVER!

Apparently you don't believe Paul when he states the soul puts on a permanent incorruptible physical body that is eternal, meaning available at all times when the soul is in need of a physical body. Which means when the soul leaves this dead body of sin, we have a living permanent physical body in heaven without sin. Eternal means from any point in time. It does not mean eternal starting thousands of years from when Paul wrote the verse. Eternal from the point those who physically came out of their tombs in Matthew 27, already had that eternal body, and they all physically ascended with Jesus into Paradise.

In Revelation 20, those particular souls have a physical body on earth and they live for a thousand years in the camp of the saints, which is then attacked on earth by other humans living on the earth.

Time is up at the 7th Trumpet. The mark of the beast is an expiration date stamp, meaning those still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh are there after that flesh has expired.

 

[Zao is life]

John 11:26 (KJVSL) And καί whosoever πᾶς liveth ζάω and καί believeth πιστεύω in εἰς me ἐμέ shall ἀποθνήσκω never οὐ μή εἰς αἰών die ἀποθνήσκω. Believest thou πιστεύω this τοῦτο?

Whoso liveth (zao) AND believes in Me shall never die.

Zao means to be living in the body. You conveniently left it out of the emphasis you are making on "shall never die", exposing the fact that you want to hide the real meaning of what Jesus was saying in favor of your false doctrine that divorces the body and the resurrection of the body from death, from the eternal life Christ was talking about.

It's the mark you leave in all your posts talking about eternal life, the millennium, etc, doing what you did in that post.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't know your hearts! I know only that you seem to deny what Scripture plainly tells us.

It's you denying half of what scripture plainly tells us and then filling up that half with your own false doctrines.

 

[Zao is life]

Amil has these reigning in a disembodied state in heaven rather than reigning in a bodily state upon the earth. As if heaven is in need of priests there, especially priests in a disembodied state---but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years(Revelation 20:6).

That has to be the most bizarre nonsense I have ever heard of, that while in a disembodied state, this is being applied to them---but they shall be priests of God and of Christ.

That sums Amil up better than anything. No human being - son of Adam created as a body, mind/soul and spirit - can function as a whole human being without the human body, which is why eternal life (aiṓnios zōḗ) is linked to life in the body (záō) throughout the New Testament (without exception), and which is why the resurrection of the body is an integral part of the gospel. @rwb keeps talking about God needing to "build a Kingdom in heaven" as though heaven is part of His creation. The imagination of some Amils runs wild!​

 

[rwb]

Whoso liveth (zao) AND believes in Me shall never die.

Zao means to be living in the body. You conveniently left it out of the emphasis you are making on "shall never die", exposing the fact that you want to hide the real meaning of what Jesus was saying in favor of your false doctrine that divorces the body and the resurrection of the body from death, from the eternal life Christ was talking about.

It's the mark you leave in all your posts talking about eternal life, the millennium, etc, doing what you did in that post.

Yes, we must be physically alive to hear the Gospel of the Kingdom preached that we might believe. Those whom during their lives believe the Gospel shall NEVER die! Even though it is clear our flesh will die, believers have ETERNAL/EVERLASTING life (spiritually) through His Spirit within us.

John 11:25-26 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Christ says whoever lives and believes in Him should not perish. He says this knowing well that our flesh is destined to die and perish. But He still says they HAVE ETERNAL LIFE! Seems you're more concerned with the physical flesh than Christ is. Knowing death of our flesh cannot take us from the spiritual Kingdom of God we both know and have entered when we are born again.

John 3:15 (KJV) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[rwb]

That sums Amil up better than anything. No human being - son of Adam created as a body, mind/soul and spirit - can function as a whole human being without the human body, which is why eternal life (zoe) is linked to life in the body (zao) throughout the New Testament (without exception), and which is why the resurrection of the body is an integral part of the gospel. @rwb keeps talking about God needing to "build a Kingdom in heaven" as though heaven is part of His creation. The imagination of some Amils runs wild!

It's a good thing that I've never argued the spiritual body of believers that ascend to heaven after they physically die are still clothed in flesh! In fact for what its worth with Premillennialists, I argued repeatedly that believers shall not be whole living souls again after they physically die before an hour coming when the seventh/last trumpet sounds that time/delay shall be no longer.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't know your hearts! I know only that you seem to deny what Scripture plainly tells us. That the Kingdom of God has come when Christ came to earth a man. You're looking for a physical Kingdom of God to be on this earth, and Scripture says the Kingdom of God is not observable because it is within you, and that the Kingdom of God is NOT now of this world, because the Kingdom of God is NOT now physical, but is a spiritual Kingdom of God that is only known and entered when man is born again of the Spirit within.

If the Kingdom of God has come, and it has, where is God's Kingdom that shall not end when our flesh has breathed its last? When Christ ascended to heaven "there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." Where is the Kingdom of God which shall not be destroyed if not in the realm of heaven? Since the Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom of heaven, why would anyone deny that after our body of flesh ceases to have life, believers live on in heaven a spiritual body of believers there? There is only one reason you and all Premillennialists refuse to accept this truth, that's because it destroys your doctrine of deception!

Since the Kingdom of Christ is within you and me and @Davidpt and many others, it is indeed visible - if we do what He says:

By this shall all men know that all of you are my disciples, if all of you have love one to another.

You're a little early if you think all those who currently have the Kingdom of Christ within them are already all living in a disembodied state. That would mean the 7th trumpet is about to sound and the resurrection about to take place.

And the prophecy you quote from Daniel is talking about the kingdom on earth. Not in heaven.

You really need to get your head out of the clouds, brother. Christ has work for you here on earth.

 

[Timtofly]

David, this entire reply makes guesses, assumes and thinks maybe. That's called an opinion and assumption that may or may not be biblical truth.

That sounds like Amil to me.

 

[Zao is life]

It's a good thing that I've never argued the spiritual body of believers that ascend to heaven after they physically die are still clothed in flesh! In fact for what its worth with Premillennialists, I argued repeatedly that believers shall not be whole living souls again after they physically die before an hour coming when the seventh/last trumpet sounds that time/delay shall be no longer.

You will still be arguing with all spirits in heaven one day who tell you to stop behaving like you have a body, telling them you already have one, because the resurrection has already occurred, trust me. And the 7th trumpet won't have sounded yet.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This story that Jesus gave them was not called a parable so it could be non-fiction and Satire, as it shows both irony and reversal of life after death.

Not all parables are labeled as such.

I already have shown where the soul is eternal and gets a totally different physical body. You denied that Scripture.

I didn't see you present scripture to show that the soul is eternal. I think you assume it is in your argument.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

The "we" in that whole chapter is interchangeable with soul. Why would a body have a body over it?

In my view, yes, because in my view the "soul" is the entire person and not one part of a tripart being as some suppose.

In Revelation, John uses the word soul as the individual not a body.

In Revelation, John employs the term soul as a synonym for "life" in the form of blood.

The body only described how that individual physically died.

No. When a person dies the whole person dies. There is no such thing as a bodiless existence.

In this verse is all the dirt on earth riding a horse:

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth."

Did the dirt kill 2 billion people?

You are reading symbolic language. Don't interpret something literally if it was intended to be symbolic.

In Revelation 20 when the dead stand before the GWT that is only the soul.

Where does it say that?

Paul says you are you with or without a physical body.

Where?

What do you mean by the concept of an eternal soul came from the Greeks? Did the Greeks write Genesis 2?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

This passage proves that a "soul" is the whole person. The whole person is not eternal. Nothing about a human being is eternal. If we were eternal, then why do we need to be granted eternal life? Your position makes no sense.

 

[rwb]

Since the Kingdom of Christ is within you and me and @Davidpt and many others, it is indeed visible - if we do what He says:

By this shall all men know that all of you are my disciples, if all of you have love one to another.

You're a little early if you think all those who currently have the Kingdom of Christ within them are already all living in a disembodied state. That would mean the 7th trumpet is about to sound and the resurrection about to take place.

And the prophecy you quote from Daniel is talking about the kingdom on earth. Not in heaven.

You really need to get your head out of the clouds, brother. Christ has work for you here on earth.

Saying the Kingdom of God is within us does not make it a visible/physical Kingdom. Don't be obtuse, I've never argued being in the Kingdom of God is to physically live in a disembodied state. Those disembodied are a spiritual body of believers in heaven because they have physically died.

 

[Zao is life]

Saying the Kingdom of God is within us does not make it a visible/physical Kingdom. Don't be obtuse, I've never argued being in the Kingdom of God is to physically live in a disembodied state. Those disembodied are a spiritual body of believers in heaven because they have physically died.

Aah. How are those disembodied priests in heaven doing now? Had them offer you a wafer without limbs lately?

 

[Zao is life]

Saying the Kingdom of God is within us does not make it a visible/physical Kingdom. Don't be obtuse, I've never argued being in the Kingdom of God is to physically live in a disembodied state. Those disembodied are a spiritual body of believers in heaven because they have physically died.

If the Kingdom of God is not visible when those who have Christ dwelling in them are in physical bodies, how do all these people manage to make themselves invisible? Millions of invisible saints meeting in invisible buildings called "churches".

Once again, you show how you completely misunderstand what Jesus meant and had your imagination running away with you.

@rwb Not that you ever show that you place scripture above your false doctrines, but I'll try to help you:

[Strongs Greek] 05348 φθάνω phthánō, fthan'-o
apparently a primary verb;
to be beforehand, i.e. anticipate or precede; by extension, to have arrived at:--(already) attain, come, prevent.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not overtake [phthánō] those who have fallen asleep.

Romans 9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained [phthánō] to the law of righteousness.

It means the righteousness of God has overtaken them.

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken [phthánō] you.

Luke 17:20-21
Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst [entós]."

It means the Kingdom of God has already overtaken you.

The fact that the body of Christ is in the world means that the Kingdom of God is in the midst of all the unbelieving world.

That's what He means. And the reason is obvious when you do some proper biblical interpretation of scripture:

John 14:20
At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.​

Why do you take simple, biblical truth and twist its meaning? The Kingdom of God is as visible today as it was when Christ was walking among them - but only those with eyes to see, could see it. The rest were blinded, and so the Kingdom of God remained just as invisible to them as it does to all unbelievers today. That's all "the Kingdom of God is within you [phthánō] / in your midst / has overtaken you, means.

@Davidpt @rwb The Greek word in Luke 17:21 is actually entós (within you), not phthánō as in Matthew 12:28, but it's still obvious (or should be obvious) to all believers what Jesus meant, because to Pharisees and unbelivers Jesus says,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see [horáō] the kingdom of God." John 3:3.

[*StrongsGreek*]
03708
ὁράω horáō, hor-ah'-o
properly, to stare at (compare 3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally);
by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear:--behold, perceive, see, take heed.

To His apostles and disciples Jesus says,

"Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." Mark 4:11-12.

 

[Davidpt]

None....shall be bodily raised to immortality and incorruptibility before an hour that is coming when the last/seventh trumpet sounds.

I do at least agree with this part anyway.

Where we are not on the same page is this. You tend to think the 7th trumpet hasn't already sounded as of the thousand years, and that I do think it has already sounded as of the thousand years. And what leads to me to conclude that? For one, what I argued in post #702. How can Amil be the correct position when the 42 month reign of the beast needs to be after the thousand years in order for Amil to be plausible?

Clearly, if the 42 month reign could logically fit after the thousand years, it would be a no brainer in that case. Amil is the correct position, Premil isn't, thus the debate is over.

Obviously, the 42 month reign can't fit during the thousand years either if Amil has the beast in the pit during the thousand years. Therefore, if the 42 months can't fit during the thousand years nor after it, what does that leave as the only logical place it can fit if not before the thousand years begin?

How does the 42 month reign of the beast preceding the beginning of the thousand years even remotely support Amil? It doesn't. And that Amils are not claiming that the 42 month reign precedes the beginning of the thousand years. I get that. But that is beside the point if that is where Revelation 20:4 logically places the time of the 42 month reign of the beast.

 

[rwb]

If the Kingdom of God is not visible when those who have Christ dwelling in them are in physical bodies, how do all these people manage to make themselves invisible? Millions of invisible saints meeting in invisible buildings called "churches".

I do at least agree with this part anyway.

You're both obtuse beyond all reason! I wouldn't bother to reply to either of you at all if it weren't for others reading here.
For your benefit I've given a definition for 'obtuse' and highlighted that which clearly applies to your understanding of biblical doctrine, or rather the lacking thereof.

ob·tuse
[əbˈto͞os, äbˈto͞os]

ADJECTIVE

1. annoyingly slow to understand; dull-witted:
   "he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse" · "blame lies at the feet of obtuse senior leaders"
   
   difficult to understand; unclear:
   "some of the lyrics are a bit obtuse"
   

 

[Zao is life]

You're both obtuse beyond all reason! I wouldn't bother to reply to either of you at all if it weren't for others reading here.
For your benefit I've given a definition for 'obtuse' and highlighted that which clearly applies to your understanding of biblical doctrine.

ob·tuse
[əbˈto͞os, äbˈto͞os]

ADJECTIVE

1. annoyingly slow to understand; dull-witted:
   "he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse" · "blame lies at the feet of obtuse senior leaders"
   
   difficult to understand; unclear:
   "some of the lyrics are a bit obtuse"
   

Copy @Davidpt To His apostles and disciples Jesus says,

"Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive [horáō]; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." Mark 4:11-12.

But to to PHARISEES He said,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see [horáō] the kingdom of God." John 3:3.

[Strongs Greek] 03708 ὁράω horáō, hor-ah'-o
properly, to stare at (compare 3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally);
by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear:--behold, perceive, see, take heed.

In the case of today's Pharisees, reading the scriptures they see, but do not perceive, and hear, but do not understand.

[Strongs Greek] 05348 φθάνω phthánō, fthan'-o
apparently a primary verb;
to be beforehand, i.e. anticipate or precede; by extension, to have arrived at:--(already) attain, come, prevent.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not overtake [phthánō] those who have fallen asleep.

Romans 9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained [phthánō] to the law of righteousness.

It means the righteousness of God has overtaken them.

To Pharisees and unbelievers Jesus said,

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken [phthánō] you.

At one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered,

"The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is in [entós] your midst." Luke 17:20-21 (NETfree Version).

[*StrongsGreek*]
01787
ἐντός entós, en-tos'
from 1722;
inside (adverb or noun):--within.

It means "The Kingdom of God is in your midst but you do not see it, therefore it has already overtaken you".

The fact that the body of Christ is in the world means that the Kingdom of God is in the midst of all the unbelieving world, and the reason is obvious to all believers:

John 14:20
At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

The Kingdom of God is as visible today as it was when Christ was walking among them - but only those with eyes to see, could see it. The rest were blinded (as is the case today), and so the Kingdom of God remained just as invisible to them as it does to all unbelievers today.

But the Pharisees of today read the scriptures and seeing they do not perceive, and hearing they do not understand - because they do not hold scripture above their own doctrines so as to let scripture shape their doctrines, but instead, they hold their own doctrines above scripture and use their own doctrines to interpret all scripture.

Scripture and the real meaning of much of scripture remains obtuse to them.

Hope we all understand the meaning of the word obtuse by now.​