Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[Marty fox]

One issue with your paradox.

One can still reign even after a thousand years. But one cannot keep being bound once the thousand years ends. That is the difference. Binding is something that is prohibiting for a period of time. Reigning is not a prohibition. So reigning does not have to end to make the thousand year reign true. A false statement would include they only reigned 900 years instead of 1,000. Cutting the reign short would nullify the thousand years. Ruling longer would not nullify the thousand years. Satan was loosed after the thousand years. Nothing in the chapter that states the reigning ends.

Yes exactly you get what I’m saying I fully agree thus it’s not a literal thousand year reign.

The binding and the reigning started at the same time but they end at different times

 

[Marty fox]

Not only does it not make sense, it would mean the camp of the saints that satan and his followers attack after the thousand years, they are actually attacking them during the thousand years. After all, it is not reasonable that the camp of saints attacked after the thousand years are not present during the thousand years. And if these same camp of saints are still reigning for a thousand years after satan's little season begins, that obviously, like I already pointed out, means that satan is attacking the camp of the saints during the thousand years rather than after. This is such an obvious contradiction that it's hard to believe anyone could think this is logical.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


When does the text indicate verse 9 takes place? After the thousand years are finished? Or before the thousand years are finished? Undeniably, the former. The camp of saints being attacked here, if they weren't bodily alive during the thousand years, where did they come from all of a sudden then? And if they were bodily alive during the thousand years, where is the text that states they are attacked during the thousand years?

It makes sense if my view of what reigning is is different than what your view of reigning is

 

[Timtofly]

I don’t want to debate on this thread why the destruction of Jerusalem could be seen as something coming upon the whole world so I’ll just give you this snippet to chew on.



Jews did not always mean “the physical universe” when they spoke of heaven and earth together. In Jewish literature, the Temple was a portal connecting heaven and earth. They called it the “navel of the earth” and the “gateway to heaven” (Jub 8:19; 1 Enoch 26:1). Just like the Mesopotamian Tower in Genesis 11, the Temple connected God’s realm to where humans lived.

To reflect this belief, the Jerusalem Temple had been built to look like a microcosm of the universe. We typically overlook how literally true the Temple hymn preserved in Psalm 78:69 is: "He built his sanctuary like the high heavens, like the earth, which he has founded for ever." The actual holy place and most holy place inside the Temple building were constructed like earth and heaven. The courts outside represented the sea.

Then why bring up the Greek church found in Philadelphia? That church has nothing to do with Jerusalem nor the Jews of that day you think means 70AD.

There is no debate as the church is neither about Israel nor about Gentiles. Neither is the New Jerusalem.

The only thing we have on 70AD is from sources other than Scripture.

Revelation covers the Second Coming, not 70AD.

I doubt you even understand what heaven and earth entail, as this earth is all there is of this universe, and what is directly above the earth. At least according to Genesis 1. In today's view there cannot be a single directly above the earth view.

Only the baptism of fire at the Second Coming will remove all the deception and blindness placed on humanity.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes exactly you get what I’m saying I fully agree thus it’s not a literal thousand year reign.

The binding and the reigning started at the same time but they end at different times

Yes, I guess. To a degree I understand.

No one should limit the reigning because that is not the point. The reigning does not have to end. The binding does.

You just have the wrong millennium in mind.

During the Millennium Satan is bound, there is no deception period, literally, none!

No one is even in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. No dead walking around on the earth bound in sin and the bondage of decay, pain, and suffering. It is literally eternal life, without suffering. The problem is no one treats Revelation 20 as being physical, and that is why both Amil and Preterist are as blind as bats on that chapter. Satan has always been limited, even in Jobs day. That limitation is not what Revelation 20 is talking about. Deception is the key word. Many think the Godpel is hindered merely because of deception. No, a thousand times no. The Gospel is in direct competition with Adam's sin nature. That is why humans reject the Gospel, not because they are deceieved by Satan. The deception of Satan is the basis for so many different and conflicting interpretations of Scripture, and not necessarily about redemption from sin. Even when Eve was deceived it was over the interpretation of God's Word. Eve was not deceieved about her soteriology.

Even the parable about binding the strong man was not about the Gospel nor Revelation 20. Jesus was referring to the casting out of devils or demonic forces using the power of Satan. No doubt, even those who follow Satan, could cast out demons, because even that is part of Satan's deception over humans. Jesus even talked about these spirits leaving and later coming back with even more spirits to the same individual.

Some Amil point out that Satan was only bound to prevent war or even persecution of the church, yet have not explained how we still have wars, and still have persecution. The only reason Satan will be bound, is because it will by earth like it was before Adam disobeyed and brought sin into the world. And Satan is not loosed to allow sin, death, and destruction to return.

No, Satan is loosed to give those humans on earth a choice between serving God or disobedience on a massive scale. This deception incorporates a massive protest where those who choose to listen to Satan tend to do harm to the camp of the saints and Jerusalem. But that never happens, because they are consumed by fire before they can act on their deception.

People currently are free to sin all the time and seemingly get away with it. Not in the Millennium where Satan is bound. Revelation 20 cannot describe what happened on the Cross. This millennium can only happen after the Second Coming when Jesus has removed all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Then those, Jesus chooses as the firstfruits, will be redeemed out of Adam's corruption and placed back into Adam's pre-disobedience physical body. These live on the earth for a thousand years. They do physically reign over their offspring for dozens of generations. Nations will be spread across the earth. That is the purpose of humanity as given in Genesis 1.

That certainly is not describing the last 2 millennia.

 

[rwb]

I believe that for the same reason you do you even said it yourself

The binding ends when satan is released and the reigning ends at the end of our world

Because as I have said repeatedly it’s not one time but two times

I guess I'm just not explaining myself very well Marty. Saints won't be able to reign with Christ AFTER this symbolic time is over, but we still reign with Him during Satan's little season as long as we are alive on the earth. Satan's binding and our reigning with Christ a thousand years end because TIME, symbolized a thousand years will have ended. Then while Satan is free to gather together Gog & Magog, not during this TIME (a thousand years) that has expired, but during Satan's little season saints reign with Christ until we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[Davidpt]

This would seem to mean that the gospel no longer has the power to save people once Satan is loosed.

With that in mind, let's assume the thousand years and satan's little season does occur before the 2nd coming.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

It seems to me that what God is doing in verse 9, until He decides to no longer keep doing that, that that is what is preventing verse 10 from occurring in the meantime. That should at least tell us that He continues to do what is recorded in verse 9 until the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. Which BTW, undeniably destroys the Preterist interpretation of the day of Lord since it would mean God is no longer doing what He is doing in verse 9 if He instead has shifted gears and is doing what is recorded in verse 10. It's a no brainer then, the day of the Lord has absolutely zero to do with anything involving the first century, and verse 9 proves it.

Which then brings us to, assuming the thousand years and satan's little does occur before the 2nd coming, when would God no longer be doing what He is doing in verse 9, but is doing what is recorded in verse 10 instead?

Most Amils, and a lot of us Premils as well, except for maybe Pretribbers, take the day of the Lord to be meaning the 2nd coming. Obviously, the 2nd coming can't happen at the beginning of satan's little season though, which means God is still doing what He is doing in verse 9 during satan's little season rather than doing what He is doing in verse 10 during satan's little season.

Yet, some Amils argue that the doors of salvation are closed once the thousand years end. Which would have to mean the beginning of satan's little season is the beginning of the day of the Lord. Which would then have to mean Christ doesn't return like a thief in the night after all, if one is applying the beginning of the day of the Lord to the beginning of satan's little season since it is not reasonable that Christ returns at the beginning of satan's little season rather than at the end of it, assuming his little season happens in this age.

 

[Davidpt]

The only reason Satan will be bound, is because it will by earth like it was before Adam disobeyed and brought sin into the world. And Satan is not loosed to allow sin, death, and destruction to return.

No, Satan is loosed to give those humans on earth a choice between serving God or disobedience on a massive scale.

For the most part, I would say you and I are probably on the same page here then. To add to that, what it basically boils down to is this. Humans end up doing what satan and the angels ended up doing ages ago, that though they were in God's presence, thus couldn't deny He exists, they rebelled regardless. And not one person alive during the thousand years will not know God exists, the fact His presence will be on the earth , thus everyone will know that Jesus is God, yet, just like satan and his angels, they too will rebel against God in the end, even after they can't deny He exists, the fact He has been dwelling among them on the earth a thousand years. IOW, history repeats itself, so to speak.

BTW, this can work with Amil as well, like such. Towards the end of the thousand years the ones that attack the camp of the saints, they have been saved, thus can't deny God exists. But when satan is loosed, they are then tested, and they fall away and end worshiping the beast instead.

 

[PinSeeker]

Interesting. Wonder if that could be what is meant in Revelation 21:1 when the text indicates--and there was no more sea? After all, according to Revelation 11:1-2, there is trouble involving the court without, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The sea is symbolic of evil and trouble and sin. Remember, the beast comes up out of the sea (Revelation 13:1). There will be no more sin, and... I quote Isaiah 35 often because I love it so much... "everlasting joy shall be upon (our) heads; (we) shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away" (Isaiah 35:10).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[grafted branch]

Then why bring up the Greek church found in Philadelphia? That church has nothing to do with Jerusalem nor the Jews of that day you think means 70AD.

There is no debate as the church is neither about Israel nor about Gentiles. Neither is the New Jerusalem.

The only thing we have on 70AD is from sources other than Scripture.

Revelation covers the Second Coming, not 70AD.

I doubt you even understand what heaven and earth entail, as this earth is all there is of this universe, and what is directly above the earth. At least according to Genesis 1. In today's view there cannot be a single directly above the earth view.

Only the baptism of fire at the Second Coming will remove all the deception and blindness placed on humanity.

Three days before Passover in 70AD the Roman army started besieging Jerusalem. This could’ve been the hour of temptation that they were kept from, the temptation to travel to Jerusalem as many Jews did in 70AD before becoming trapped in the city.



Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.



John’s primary audience was Jews not Gentiles so we have to keep this in mind when reading Revelation.

 

[grafted branch]

Yet, some Amils argue that the doors of salvation are closed once the thousand years end. Which would have to mean the beginning of satan's little season is the beginning of the day of the Lord. Which would then have to mean Christ doesn't return like a thief in the night after all, if one is applying the beginning of the day of the Lord to the beginning of satan's little season since it is not reasonable that Christ returns at the beginning of satan's little season rather than at the end of it, assuming his little season happens in this age.

Yes, I realize some Amill think salvation ends when the thousand years ends and that would be consistent with the idea of Satan being bound from allowing the gospel to spread or do its work, but as you point out that idea creates other problems that are left unsolved.

 

[PinSeeker]

No that's not what I'm saying what i'm saying is

1. The thousand year binding started at the cross and resurrection and ends when satan is released.

2. The thousand year reigning started at the cross and resurrection and ends at the end of our world

Hmmm... The thousand year thousand year (millennial) reign of Christ and the thousand year (millennial) binding of Satan, during which he is not able to keep the Gospel from being spread to all nations (tongues, tribes, and nations) starts ~ started ~ at the same time... about two millennia ago. It will end, be brought to a close, when God completes His construction of Israel ~ bringing all Gentile elect in and then removing the partial hardening that is on Israel at present; in this way all Israel will be saved (as Paul says in Romans 11:25-26). This is the one millennium.

Grace and peace to you, Marty!

 

[Davidpt]

It makes sense if my view of what reigning is is different than what your view of reigning is

For what it's worth, I do grasp why you conclude what you do. Yet, you don't deal with other issues that this causes, such as the camp of the saints being surrounded after the thousand years. Obviously, if they are alive after the thousand years, they are alive during it as well. Except you have them still reigning a thousand years when the thousand years have already expired. Which then contradicts that it after the thousand years expire, that that is when the camp of the saints are attacked. Try looking at it like this. 2023 equals the thousand years. The beginning of 2024 equals satan's little season. How can they still be reigning in 2023 when it is now 2024 instead? When it is 2024, 2023 is in the past. Or maybe a better example might be this. In the US a President can only serve two 4 year terms at most. Once these 8 years are finished, how is it that this person can still be serving as President? In the same way, this thousand years equals an era of time, and once it is fulfilled, it is in the past at that point, not just for some, but for everyone.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, I realize some Amill think salvation ends when the thousand years ends and that would be consistent with the idea of Satan being bound from allowing the gospel to spread or do its work, but as you point out that idea creates other problems that are left unsolved.

It's not a matter of "salvation ending," really, it's just that at that time, God will have brought all His elect ~ Jew and Gentile, people of every tongue, tribe and nation ~ into His Israel, as I have said. I would like to know what other "problems" you or anyone else thinks it creates or leaves unsolved. I'll look back a bit at David's posts; maybe he does this.

Grace and peace to you, GB.

 

[grafted branch]

It's not a matter of "salvation ending," really, it's just that at that time, God will have brought all His elect ~ Jew and Gentile, people of every tongue, tribe and nation ~ into His Israel, as I have said. I would like to know what other "problems" you or anyone else thinks it creates or leaves unsolved. I'll look back a bit at David's posts; maybe he does this.

Grace and peace to you, GB.

I posted this previously to Marty, maybe you can comment on this.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come … 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.



The power of the gospel cannot be what binds Satan in the first place if denying that power is something to turn away from. Also the gospel itself is seen as everlasting in Revelation 14:6, which one would think includes the power of it.

 

[PinSeeker]

Okay, I'm not sure if this post presents the "unsolved problems" that Grafted Branch was speaking of above, but I'm going to speak to this anyway, if you don't mind.

With that in mind, let's assume the thousand years and satan's little season does occur before the 2nd coming.

Okay, well, I would submit that it can't really be otherwise.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

It seems to me that what God is doing in verse 9, until He decides to no longer keep doing that, that that is what is preventing verse 10 from occurring in the meantime. That should at least tell us that He continues to do what is recorded in verse 9 until the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night.

Well, yes, except I might change the wording of "until He decides to no longer keep doing that, that that is what is preventing verse 10 from occurring" a bit. Maybe this is synonymous with what you're saying, but God is well aware of the time ~ our time ~ that He has allotted for all these things to take place. If you understand it that way, then yes, we're right together on this. Verse 10 will occur when He has finished with what God is doing behind what is in verse 9: keeping His promise of calling and saving all of Israel. And when He has finished that work, then Satan will be released for his little season, and then the day of the Lord will come. And this will all happen at the times appointed by God. Using a good concordance, a good exercise would be to do a word search on 'appointed.' Maybe all this is in line with your thinking. If so, then great!

Which BTW, undeniably destroys the Preterist interpretation of the day of Lord since it would mean God is no longer doing what He is doing in verse 9 if He instead has shifted gears and is doing what is recorded in verse 10. It's a no brainer then, the day of the Lord has absolutely zero to do with anything involving the first century, and verse 9 proves it.

Right. Preterism... Yeah, stay away from that. :)

Which then brings us to, assuming the thousand years and satan's little does occur before the 2nd coming, when would God no longer be doing what He is doing in verse 9, but is doing what is recorded in verse 10 instead?

Hm. Not sure if I'm answering this or not, really; the question is a bit confusing. But God will "no longer be doing what He is doing in verse 9" before ~ this is what actually brings on ~ Satan's little season; God will have completed His Israel and brought the millennium to a close. And then... the day of the Lord will come.

Most Amils, and a lot of us Premils as well, except for maybe Pretribbers, take the day of the Lord to be meaning the 2nd coming. Obviously, the 2nd coming can't happen at the beginning of satan's little season though...

Exactly...

...which means God is still doing what He is doing in verse 9 during satan's little season...

No, before Satan's little season. God finishes His execution of what He's doing in verse 9, and then... Maybe the best way to say it most simply is that Satan's little season is... between verse 9 and 10. See above.

Yet, some Amils argue that the doors of salvation are closed once the thousand years end.

As I said to Grafted Branch above, David, it's not really a matter of "salvation ending," really, it's just that at that time, God will have brought all His elect ~ Jew and Gentile, people of every tongue, tribe and nation ~ into His Israel. In other words, I guess we could put it this way, that the salvation of the Lord will be complete. He will have saved all that He has purposed to save ~ all that were chosen before the foundation of the world, as Paul puts it in Ephesians 1. God's purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Which would have to mean the beginning of satan's little season is the beginning of the day of the Lord.

Ah, well, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe. :) I guess it depends on what is really meant by the day of the Lord; the day of the Lord doesn't have to be the day He returns; 'day' can refer to a time period, or a season, a span of literal days or some period of time. So, "the day of the Lord" could refer to Satan's little season and Jesus's actual return, which together could actually be some short period of time. I don't think this is very important, to be honest. Satan's little season "will be cut short for the sake of the elect" (Jesus, Matthew 24:22, Mark 13:20), and then He will return. In my opinion, whether this is all the day of the Lord or the day of the Lord refers specifically to the day of His return is... not important; it seems to me unimportant to make that distinction.

Which would then have to mean Christ doesn't return like a thief in the night after all, if one is applying the beginning of the day of the Lord to the beginning of satan's little season since it is not reasonable that Christ returns at the beginning of satan's little season rather than at the end of it, assuming his little season happens in this age.

Okay, well, I guess what I'm saying is, this seems a bit over-analytical to me. :)

Grace and peace to you, David!

 

[PinSeeker]

I posted this previously to Marty, maybe you can comment on this.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come … 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.



The power of the gospel cannot be what binds Satan in the first place if denying that power is something to turn away from.

It's... not the power of the Gospel that binds Satan. I mean, not to sound offensive, but I've heard a lot in my day, and I don't think I've ever heard anything from anybody proposing that it's the power of the Gospel that binds Satan. I would point out ~ again ~ what Jesus says in Matthew 12:29... "how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." Jesus is speaking of Himself, there. In the very next verse, He says, "Whoever is not with Me is against me, and whoever does not gather with Me scatters."

Also the gospel itself is seen as everlasting in Revelation 14:6, which one would think includes the power of it.

Agree; the Gospel will always be what it is. :) Even in eternity, though of course no one will need to be convinced of it anymore at that point. :) But yes, the power of the Gospel will never fade. The Word of our God remains/endures forever (Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 1:25).

Grace and peace to you, GB.

 

[grafted branch]

It's... not the power of the Gospel that binds Satan. I mean, not to sound offensive, but I've heard a lot in my day, and I don't think I've ever heard anything from anybody proposing that it's the power of the Gospel that binds Satan. I would point out ~ again ~ what Jesus says in Matthew 12:29... "how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." Jesus is speaking of Himself, there. In the very next verse, He says, "Whoever is not with Me is against me, and whoever does not gather with Me scatters."


Agree; the Gospel will always be what it is. :) Even in eternity, though of course no one will need to be convinced of it anymore at that point. :) But yes, the power of the Gospel will never fade. The Word of our God remains/endures forever (Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 1:25).

Grace and peace to you, GB.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.



Well the power of the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Yet once the strong man is loosed the gospel can no longer spoil his house, it won’t have the power to save any longer.

 

[Marty fox]

I posted this previously to Marty, maybe you can comment on this.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come … 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.



The power of the gospel cannot be what binds Satan in the first place if denying that power is something to turn away from. Also the gospel itself is seen as everlasting in Revelation 14:6, which one would think includes the power of it.

I did answer this before what it is saying is that these false Christians seam godly but they really deny the power so the faithful saints are to stay away from them and yes it is everlasting

 

[Marty fox]

Hmmm... The thousand year thousand year (millennial) reign of Christ and the thousand year (millennial) binding of Satan, during which he is not able to keep the Gospel from being spread to all nations (tongues, tribes, and nations) starts ~ started ~ at the same time... about two millennia ago. It will end, be brought to a close, when God completes His construction of Israel ~ bringing all Gentile elect in and then removing the partial hardening that is on Israel at present; in this way all Israel will be saved (as Paul says in Romans 11:25-26). This is the one millennium.

Grace and peace to you, Marty!

Yes exactly but the binding ends when satan is released and the reigning ends at the end of our world

 

[grafted branch]

I did answer this before what it is saying is that these false Christians seam godly but they really deny the power so the faithful saints are to stay away from them and yes it is everlasting

Yes, I agree that it’s the ungodly that deny the power and I also agree that the gospel never loses its power.

How is it then that the strong man’s house can no longer be spoiled once Satan is loosed? Believers would still be reigning with Christ and going into all the world preaching the gospel.