Until the Spirit from on High is Poured Upon Us.

[Keraz]

Isaiah 54:1 Sing, barren woman, who never bore a child, Shout for joy, you who have never been in labour, for the deserted wife will have more children that she who has a husband.
This verse refers to the Israelites – the 10 Northern tribes, then Judah, both divorced and exiled from God for their sins, but now ‘a vast multitude’. Isaiah 50:1, Jeremiah 3:8-9, Malachi 2:10-11, Ezekiel 36:10-11.

Isaiah 54:2-3 Enlarge your space, spread out right and left, your descendants will dispossess nations and will inhabit cities now desolate.
The Israelites, now including every faithful Christian: will go to live in all of the holy Land, they will take over neighbouring areas and will live in their abandoned houses. Zechariah 10:8-10, Micah 7:11, Ezekiel 36:24-28, Amos 9:12, Zephaniah 3:19-20.]

Isaiah 54:4-6 Fear not, you will not be put to shame or disgrace. It is time to forget the shame of your younger days and the reproach of your casting off, for your husband is your Maker, His name is Y’hovah. The Holy One of Israel is your redeemer, He acknowledges you as his possession again, once cast off and heartbroken.
His people, the Christian Israelites of God, can look forward to their redemption and restoration to their heritage. Amos 9:13-15, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Isaiah 14:1-2

Isaiah 54:7-8 I forsook you for a passing moment, but with tender affection, I shall bring you home again. In an upsurge of anger, I hid My face from you, but now, I shall give you never failing love, says the Lord; your Redeemer.

a passing moment – 1000s of years of Israel’s exile ( a 1000 years is as a day to God) Soon to migrate to their true homeland. Isaiah 35:1-10, Zephaniah 3:17, Micah 3:6-8.

Isaiah 54:9-10 This to Me, is like when I swore to never again flood the earth, so now I swear to you – to never again be angry or rebuke you. My love will never fail and My covenant of peace will never be shaken.
Wonderful promises of blessings to His people, those who love and serve Him. Micah 7:19, Hosea 14:4-7, Ezekiel 37:26-27

Isaiah 54:11-12 Storm battered city, distressed and desolate, now I shall rebuild you with the finest materials.
Jerusalem – and all Israel- rebuilt and regenerated after the destruction caused by the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath. Joel 1:19-20, Amos 9:11, Ezekiel 36:8-12

Isaiah 54:13-17 Your children will be instructed by the Lord, they will enjoy great prosperity. They will have nothing to fear. If anyone tries to attack you, they will die [Ezekiel 38 & 39 & Joel 2:20] No weapon will prevail against you and any accuser will be refuted. These benefits are enjoyed by the servants of the Lord, their victory comes from Me.
Reference; REB, some verses abridged.

His faithful Christian people, living in peace and security, in all of the holy Land, will fulfil all the promises made to the Patriarchs. They will be ‘a Light to the nations ‘ and will send out 144,000 missionaries to spread the gospel of the coming Kingdom of Jesus Christ. Isaiah 66:19, and Luke 10:1-19 – is the precursor for them.

 

[ewq1938]

Wrong. It iwll be faithful Jews who live in teh land. Your replacement tyheology language by making the church Israel now is dreadful and wrong.

The church has always been Israel.

The origin of the Christian church began with Jews/Israel. The church has always been true Israel in Christ from it's beginning and continues to be that way today but with the inclusion of gentiles. It is the same with the concept of the bride of Christ and the body of Christ. The bride and body started with Jews/Israel. Gentiles that accept Christ become part/are grafted into these concepts and become part of the Church, part of the bride, part of the body and part of the great olive tree which has many of the natural Jewish branches since the ministry of Christ and beyond.

No one replaced anyone else. Some bad branches were removed, some good branches were added.

 

[quietthinker]

Until the Spirit from on High is Poured Upon Us...​

....men will insist on private interpretations!

 

[Earburner]

His faithful Christian people, living in peace and security, in all of the holy Land, will fulfil all the promises made to the Patriarchs. They will be ‘a Light to the nations ‘ and will send out 144,000 missionaries to spread the gospel of the coming Kingdom of Jesus Christ. Isaiah 66:19, and Luke 10:1-19 – is the precursor for them.

Since Pentecost, there will be no 144,000 chosen of Israel to preach the gospel of Christ to the world.

The figurative144,000 are indeed of Israel, but they were the chosen who lived and died in faith of "the Promise to come", while living UNDER THE OC. Their names were written in a "Book of Remembrance" before God". Malachi 3:16.

When Jesus came to Israel in the likeness of our mortal flesh, He specifically called Nathaniel "an Israelte indeed, in whom there is no guile" John 1:47.
In Revelation, those words were also said of the 144,000, being a clue, as to who they are, and whence they came. Rev. 14:1-5
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; . they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (Mat. 27:52-53).
[5] And in their mouth was found no guile:
for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Redeemed?? When were the 144,000, under the OC. redeemed?
Those who were remembered by God, were redeemed in the day of Jesus Resurrection, as shown in Rev. 6:9-11. God did not forget them.
[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar [of the OC] the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them [the permanent gift of the Holy Spirit of God]; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Therefore, when Jesus spoke to Nathaniel those words, He was revealing that Nathaniel was a member of the symbolic 144,000 of Israel. We see this to be the same situation with that of Simeon, who was also waiting for the Messiah to come. Luke 2:25-34.

 

[covenantee]

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Genesis 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Genesis 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Genesis 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Genesis 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Genesis 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Genesis 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Genesis 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Genesis 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Genesis 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Genesis 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The church has always been Israel.

The origin of the Christian church began with Jews/Israel. The church has always been true Israel in Christ from it's beginning and continues to be that way today but with the inclusion of gentiles. It is the same with the concept of the bride of Christ and the body of Christ. The bride and body started with Jews/Israel. Gentiles that accept Christ become part/are grafted into these concepts and become part of the Church, part of the bride, part of the body and part of the great olive tree which has many of the natural Jewish branches since the ministry of Christ and beyond.

No one replaced anyone else. Some bad branches were removed, some good branches were added.

No we have not! Just one line from Paul should end that myth.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The church was not born or existed until Pentecost.

Israel is the wife of Jehovah, the church is the espoused to Christ. There is a difference.

The only defense for the church being Israel comes from a misreading of this passage from Galatians:

Galatians 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Basic primary school grammar shows this is a compound sentence and is referring to2 groups of people:

1. the "as many as walk"
2. AL:SO to the Israel of God- which is the saved of God.

Also Romans 11 should absolutely dispel the myth that the church is Irael:

Romans 11

King James Version

​

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Also if we were to replace "church" for Israel in all the OT prophecies, then we would have had to be worshippers in the temple and keepers of the Mosaic Law.

Sorry but thatr replacement theology is not what Gods Word teaches as written but as reinterpreted privately.

 

[Earburner]

It's important to note in my post #24, that since Pentecost, right up to the Day of the Lord's glorious return, all and anyone who is of Jewish descent, can only be saved by having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Iows, prior to the first manifestation of Jesus, no one of faith, under the OC, ever had the Holy Spirit permanently, and therefore truthfully, they who were the Israel of faith, were waiting for "the Promise to come", because prior to the shed blood of Christ and His resurrection, the Holy Spirit had not yet been given to anyone permanently, ever since Adam.
John 7
[39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

So then, since Pentecost, all who do have faith in Jesus, both Jew and Gentile alike, they will show up in "the Great Multitude", and nowhere else.
As for those who don't have faith in Jesus, they are equally lost as any Gentile, who dies while refusing Christ.
Rom. 8:9; Rom. 10:12.

Those of the symbolic 144,000 ARE OF OC Israel. There is no 144,000 Jews of the NT, otherwise God could be faulted for having preference over another because of difference.
Edit: in all actuality, before God through Jesus Christ, there is no such thing as a "Born Again Jew". We all who are of faith in Jesus and are born again, are made to be "a NEW creature [creation], being neither Jew or Gentile!

 

[Keraz]

No one replaced anyone else. Some bad branches were removed, some good branches were added.

Right. It is contrary to Bible teaching to think there two peoples of God. John 17:20-23

I do not want this thread to become 'who is the 144,000'.
As we are now so close to the Day when the Lord will send fire to destroy his enemies in the holy Land. Amos 1:1-15, Amos 2:1-5, Zechariah 1:14-18, Hebrews 10:27, we should be concerned about that event and what we should do after it.

This is for sure: we are all going to be tested, 1 Peter 4:12, and we must be ready to obey the Lords voice, Isaiah 30:21

 

[covenantee]

Sorry but thatr replacement theology is not what Gods Word teaches as written but as reinterpreted privately.

He can't define "replacement theology".
He can't explain "replacement theology".
He can do nothing but parrot "replacement theology".

A dispensational dogmatized delusion.

 

[ewq1938]

The church was not born or existed until Pentecost.

No, the church was there speaking in tongues and spreading the gospel at Pentecost. The church grew that day.

Israel is the wife of Jehovah, the church is the espoused to Christ. There is a difference.

Israel is the divorced whore. There is no wife anymore. The only potential wife now has to be espoused to the Son and marry him when he returns.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Right. It is contrary to Bible teaching to think there two peoples of God. John 17:20-23

I do not want this thread to become 'who is the 144,000'.
As we are now so close to the Day when the Lord will send fire to destroy his enemies in the holy Land. Amos 1:1-15, Amos 2:1-5, Zechariah 1:14-18, Hebrews 10:27, we should be concerned about that event and what we should do after it.

This is for sure: we are all going to be tested, 1 Peter 4:12, and we must be ready to obey the Lords voice, Isaiah 30:21

In the New TEstament I agree, but for the Millenial kingdom OT Israel occupies one place and teh church another. OT Israel is not part of the church.

If we are concerned, we should be living unto the Lord and busy bringing in the rest of the harvest.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, the church was there speaking in tongues and spreading the gospel at Pentecost. The church grew that day.

Yes because Pentecost was the day it was born. The church did not exist until the upper room disciples were filled with the Spirit.

Israel is the divorced whore. There is no wife anymore. The only potential wife now has to be espoused to the Son and marry him when he returns.

The Father will rewed Israel a spromised.

Amos 9:8-9
8 "Behold, the eyes of the Lord Yahweh are on the sinful kingdom, And I will destroy it from the face of the earth; Yet I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob," Says Yahweh.
9 "For surely I will command, And will sift the house of Israel among all nations, As grain is sifted in a sieve; Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground."

Daniel 2:44A
"And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people;"

And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now. For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal. (Hos 2:7–8)

Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of YHVH, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy Elohim. Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for YHVH delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy Elohim rejoice over thee. (Isa 62:3–5)

Behold, the days come, saith YHVH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHVH: but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHVH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know YHVH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YHVH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jer 31:31–34)

Hosea 1:1
The word of Yahweh that came to Hosea the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.
2 When Yahweh began to speak by Hosea, Yahweh said to Hosea: 'Go, take yourself a wife of harlotry And children of harlotry, For the land has committed great harlotry By departing from Yahweh'.
3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.
4 Then Yahweh said to him: "Call his name Jezreel, For in a little while I will avenge the bloodshed of Jezreel on the house of Jehu, And bring an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel.
5 It shall come to pass in that day That I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel."
6 And she conceived again and bore a daughter. Then God said to him: "Call her name Lo-Ruhamah, For I will no longer have mercy on the house of Israel, But I will utterly take them away.
7 Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, Will save them by Yahweh their God, And will not save them by bow, Nor by sword or battle, By horses or horsemen."
8 Now when she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son.
9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.'"
11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel Shall be gathered together, And appoint for themselves one head; And they shall come up out of the land, For great will be the day of Jezreel!
Hosea 2:1 Say to your brethren, 'My people,' And to your sisters, 'Mercy is shown.'
2 Bring charges against your mother, bring charges; For she is not My wife, nor am I her Husband! Let her put away her harlotries from her sight, And her adulteries from between her breasts;
3 Lest I strip her naked And expose her, as in the day she was born, And make her like a wilderness, And set her like a dry land, And slay her with thirst.
4 I will not have mercy on her children, For they are the children of harlotry.
5 For their mother has played the harlot; She who conceived them has behaved shamefully. For she said, 'I will go after my lovers, Who give me my bread and my water, My wool and my linen, My oil and my drink.'
6 Therefore, behold, I will hedge up your way with thorns, And wall her in, So that she cannot find her paths.

 

[Keraz]

In the New TEstament I agree, but for the Millenial kingdom OT Israel occupies one place and teh church another. OT Israel is not part of the church.

Only living people will be in the Millennium.
ALL of the dead, incl the OT Saints, must wait for the Judgment when the thousand years has ended.

The idea of a separate Church and Israel, is unbiblical and only promoted by those deceived by the 'rapture to heaven' theory.

If we are concerned, we should be living unto the Lord and busy bringing in the rest of the harvest.

I do that, and my specific task is to promote the Prophetic Word.
But for people who have decided what they want the Lord to do for them, their understanding is blocked and they are locked into their delusions. Isaiah 42:18-20

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Only living people will be in the Millennium.
ALL of the dead, incl the OT Saints, must wait for the Judgment when the thousand years has ended.

The idea of a separate Church and Israel, is unbiblical and only promoted by those deceived by the 'rapture to heaven' theory.

Well that is because you reject a rapture which is biblical. The church ends at teh pretrib rapture and all saved after that I call "tribulation saints".

But Israel will be resurrected before the millennium as REv. 20 declares. And Israel as a nation plays a very prominent role in teh millenial kingdom as all the verses I posted at your request twice on other threads shows without ambiguity.

I do that, and my specific task is to promote the Prophetic Word.
But for people who have decided what they want the Lord to do for them, their understanding is blocked and they are locked into their delusions. Isaiah 42:18-20

I wish you did without reinterpreting it.

And your insult is not very subtle.

 

[Keraz]

The Father will rewed Israel a spromised.

Yes; the Israel of God, not those who claim to be Israel.
Thinking anything else, is a direct contradiction of NT teaching of how Salvation is available to all who will accept it.

 

[Keraz]

Well that is because you reject a rapture which is biblical. The church ends at teh pretrib rapture and all saved after that I call "tribulation saints".

But Israel will be resurrected before the millennium as REv. 20 declares. And Israel as a nation plays a very prominent role in teh millenial kingdom as all the verses I posted at your request twice on other threads shows without ambiguity.

I wish you did without reinterpreting it.

And your insult is not very subtle.

Well, Ronald, there isn't much chance of us agreeing on what will happen, which will start very soon.
As for insults, one of us is deceived and if you are not raptured, it will be very difficult for you. Vice/versa: I don't object to going to heaven, but harp practice - not for me.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes because Pentecost was the day it was born. The church did not exist until the upper room disciples were filled with the Spirit.

The disciples were the church, which existed before that day.

 

[Earburner]

I do not want this thread to become 'who is the 144,000'.

Keraz, I for one don't intend to divert this thread to a discussion about the figurative 144,000 of the faithful of Israel.
However, I do have this unction of the Lord, that we are to "hear what the Spirit saith to the churches" about them:
It's high time that church-ianity faces up to the scriptural and spiritual fact, that the 144,000 are the saints who lived and died WHILE UNDER THE Old Covenant, but had not yet received the permanent Gift of the Holy Spirit. John 7:39.

God did not forget them, whom He "remembered". (Malachi 3:16), as specifically shown in Mat. 27
[52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Though the churches are in total confusion over their resurrection, these ARE THEY who are spoken of in Rev. 6:9-11, as having received "white robes", which is symbolic of God's permanent Gift of His Holy Spirit (John 7:39), immediately AFTER Jesus' resurrection. 1 Cor. 15:20; Rev. 14:4.

All of such ARE the "first fruits unto God and to the Lamb", who THEN DID enter into the KoG, having been redeemed, and ARE NOW written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

As "Covenantee" did say in post #25:
"Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)"

 

[ewq1938]

the 144,000 are the saints who lived and died WHILE UNDER THE Old Covenant,

No, because they are sealed while alive prior to the tribulation which places them within the new covenant making them Christians of Jewish/Israelite descent. It is church-ianity that teaches the opposite of this, and what the bible presents.

 

[Keraz]

the 144,000 are the saints who lived and died WHILE UNDER THE Old Covenant, but had not yet received the permanent Gift of the Holy Spirit. John 7:39.

This idea is wrong because you cannot say Moses and Abraham did not have the Holy Spirit and once having it, are never said to lose it.
The 144k are exactly who Revelation 14:4-5 describes says they are. For what reason do you feel the need to make them OT saints?

Your beliefs contradict Revelation 20:15-21, which proves that ONLY after the Millennium, will everyone who has ever lived, dead and still living; will stand before God in Judgment.